Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Portable 16mm Projector

This is topic Portable 16mm Projector in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Simon Nakonechny (Member # 2386) on 04-22-2004, 10:30 AM:

Hi,

I'm involved with exhibitions at a Filmmaking Coop here in Canada and we are looking for advice on the purchase of a 16mm projector. It has to be reasonably portable as we often have screenings outside the organization's main space. We would of course prefer to buy new but I haven't been able to find any manufacturers that still manufacture portable 16mm projectors. Quality and durability are the top concerns here as well as ease of repair. Your suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Simon

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-22-2004, 10:47 AM:

You may be able to find used 16MM equipment from your local school district. They may have some Bell and Howel stuff sitting around.

Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 04-22-2004, 11:14 AM:

You'll want to get a nice EIKI or an ELMO. Avoid anything that autoshreds, errr.. autoloads.

danny

Posted by Simon Nakonechny (Member # 2386) on 04-22-2004, 11:38 AM:

We already have some old Bell and Howells but were hoping to purchase something more high-quality. Most of the prints we screen are rare or archival so price is not really a factor.

Simon

Posted by Joe Beres (Member # 678) on 04-22-2004, 12:13 PM:

I would advise purchasing Eiki portable projectors. Like Dan said, avaid anything that has an autoload mechanism. Slotload Eikis run very well, and are quite easy on the film. If you can find some, get the portable 550w xenon models(EX-550) or the 350 (ex-350). They are fantastic machines. Eiki doesn't advertise that they still manufacture 16mm projectors, but I believe they will make them to order. Elmo will, too. New projectors are really priced sky high. The Xenon Eikis are not easy to find, but they do pop up on Ebay and elsewhere from time to time.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-22-2004, 01:12 PM:

Agreed totally on a good condition 1970s or 80s vintage Eiki. The gate claws are very gentle on slightly shrunk acetate stock, keeping the film path clean is dead easy and routine maintenance is simple. Identifying a source of spare belts, bulbs (especially exciter bulbs) and the like may be a pain, though. If you can find a source of reasonably cheap ex-school machines it might be worth considering getting two or three and using the spares for spare parts.

Posted by Dennis Atkinson (Member # 345) on 04-22-2004, 01:46 PM:

While gate claws are very gentle on slightly shrunk acetate stock, the rest of the Eiki may not be.
I do know of an Elmo for sale. Not too portable at 243 pounds though.

Dennis

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-22-2004, 01:54 PM:

In my experience, Elmos tend to be gentler on film than Eikis. Both are good choices, though.

Leo--are exciter bulbs really that hard to find? I've never had problems ordering from Bulb Direct....

Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 04-22-2004, 04:33 PM:

Try contacting Robert Film Service in St. Laurent, Quebec. (514) 337-4956. He specializes in 16mm. I bought a rebuilt 70s Eiki xenon from him. I might consider selling it. It has been modified to run 6,000 ft reels. If you want details e-mail me.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-22-2004, 05:16 PM:

Scott - over here you often have to 'phone or e-mail round quite a few photography shops, or order from continental Europe to get exciters for most 16mm portables. Same for belts.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-22-2004, 09:31 PM:

ELMO is officially out of the 16mm business. So no, they will not special order them. Like with 8mm, they foolishly also nixed their 16mm telecine when they canned their last projector (the CX-350) so...as the 16mm market dries up, they killed off a future business of selling telecines so one could project their 16mm via video projector (or dupe them to another medium).

Steve

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-22-2004, 09:41 PM:

Ironically, the market for 16mm camera negative film is growing, often preferred to video origination: [Smile]

http://www.kodak.com/go/16mm

quote:
Creatively, technologically, and economically, our state-of-the-art stocks deliver greater flexibility, and control than ever before. Discover why 16 mm film is the perfect choice for your next project.

http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/news/nflFilms.shtml

quote:
NFL Films operates a 200,000-square foot facility in New York, housing state-of-the-art television and motion picture studios. The NFL Films archive is the largest sports film library in the world with over 100 million feet of 16 mm film.

http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/news/nab2004breakthroughsP.shtml

quote:
Part of the demonstration includes a test produced by NFL FILMS that compares Super 16 film and digital images displayed on HD monitors. The demonstration includes side-by-side comparisons that run the gamut of production situations captured with film and high-definition, NTSC and PAL format video cameras. The test scenarios include interior and exterior dramas, nature and action sequences.

"This exhibit provides convincing evidence that content produced in Super 16 format will satisfy the highest expectations for future HD display," says Maryann Mendel, product manager for the Kodak Entertainment Imaging division. "Advances in films, cameras and postproduction technologies are fueling a renaissance in the use of Super 16 mm film. Budget-conscious filmmakers are opting for the creative flexibility and affordability of the format."

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-23-2004, 08:49 AM:

Fumeo makes a good claw driven 16mm projector that i very gentle on film with an internal xenon powersupply

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 04-23-2004, 09:05 AM:

Cinemec of Turin Italy make several models of portable and theatre style 16mm in addition to portable 35mm projectors.

Posted by Phil Blake (Member # 2012) on 04-23-2004, 10:52 AM:

Greetings,
One 16mm projector I would recommend is the Japanese made Hokushin , It has a very good autoloading function , or can be manually loaded.

The Bell & Howell were a great projector , but the main drive gear is nylon over aluminum core and I have found , with temperature changes over time , the nylon gear will split in two. I have discovered many with this problem , replacement gears are available , but what a job it is replacing them!

Posted by Lindsay Morris (Member # 1430) on 04-23-2004, 10:30 PM:

The Bell & Howell film claw mechanism is probably the best ever designed as far as claw type movements go... nothing can compete with the Maltese cross style on 35mm machines or some upmarket 16mm machines.
Eiki, Elmo, Hokushin, Bauer and others all use a very similar drive method for the claw which is simply a single pivot at one end, the claw on the other and driven up and down and in and out by a cam. The result is that the claw does not move exactly parallel to the edge of the film... it works over a very small area of an arc determined by the length of the arm it is mounted on. This means at the beginning and the end of each claw stroke the teeth of the actual claw are at a point close to the edge of the sprocket hole closest to the image and in the middle of the stroke are towards the edge of the film.
For this reason any shrunken or poorly spliced film does have a few problems as the claw teeth are actually sliding left and right within the sprocket hole area as each frame is pulled down.
Bell & Howell on the other hand have a twin arm system so pivotted and driven that the claw teeth move parallel to the film edge throughout the stroke... or so close to it that it does not matter.
In addition B&H claws have 3 teeth whilst most others only have 2 teeth so again very reliable film movement is possible as more than 3 consecutive sprocket holes have to be ruptured before the B&H units start to "stutter" and kick in the loop restorer.
Although many professional projectionists.. such as on this forum deride "auto loaders" they did have a place when many schools and similar had 16mm machines and getting all the various "users" of those machines competent at lacing a 16mm machine and not wrecking film was a HUGE task and never really achieved.
So the autoloaders arrived and most were quite OK and IF kept clean and regularly serviced and IF the operator fed the film in the correct way there were no real problems.
16mm has only one set of sprocket holes and the sound is on the other edge and I have prints here where an "operator" repeatedly fed a 16mm feature into a front loader with the sound track on the outside edge and in the finish actually got some form of perforations going such that the film was being fed thru for quite some time before they stopped the show as they had no sound and the image was back to front.... [Eek!]

That film now has a nice plop plop plop sound for the first 30 or so metres due to the scratches/indents on the sound track.
Amongst the B&H autoloaders the slot loader Model 1680 is probably the best one to hunt for as getting film out of any of the other B&H's (the front loading type)was always going to damage film unless you worked VERY carefully.
Cracking worm gears are a problem for all of the later model B&H machines from series TQ1 onwards and was particularly a problem in Australia due to the wide temp ranges we experience but here there are at least 2 known aftermarket makers of excellent worm gears that once fitted will probably outlast the machine.
The Eiki slot loader SL1 & SSL1 are both quite good performers with good light and good sound and some have a Aux O/P socket inside the back cover for feeding into a higher powered sound system.
The Hokushin circa-loader SC10 is another good performer with equally good light and sound in comparison to both Eiki & B&H models. The "circa-loader" is a strange looking beast where the end of the film is clipped into an external arm at the top of the machine. Press the Thread button and the arm swings around through the sprockets (2) and the gate and sound head and stops ready to poke the film into the takeup reel. An internal cam system attached to the arm opens the gate as the arm passes around "laying" the film in the slots and then closing bits as needed afterwards.
Quite nifty to watch and once threaded up has a safety switch unit that prevents that arm being activated when the machine is rolling. Has nice BIG diam sprockets that are very kind to film and is very easy to unthread should you have to.
The Elmo 16 series which was quite common in Australia is also quite a good machine with good light and sound BUT has a nasty problem of leaving horrible sticky goey deposits on film and almost wrecking a print as there are 3 or 4 rubbers rollers thru the sound drum area that tend to break down with both heat and over-lubrication and instead of being firm and clean become mis-shapen and sticky and leave great trails of black dobs of disintegrating rubber on any print unlucky to be run thru.
So check any Elmo machine carefully for rotten rubber rollers.
B&H 1680 also has a similar rubber roller/pinch wheel for the sound drum but I have yet to see one break down quite like these Elmo units did.
The Bauer/Rank units were also quite good but some with the auto load had a tendency to jam the film as it passed into the gate with often damaging results for film leaders.
Most of these machines that used Halogen lamps of the 24v 200/250watt versions had quite good light up to images of 4m wide in average conditions or you could push them to 5m wide in a good dark room with a good screen.
The older machines with 750 -1000watt lamps were no real match for a later unit as the light almost always was yellowish and nowhere near as bright and crisp as the Halogen powered machines.
In addition the later machines had the benefit of faster lens in the order of f1.1 on some to f1.3 on others..older machines could often only muster a f2.0 lens which consumed a fair bit of the light.
My personal choice would be a B&H 1680, Hokushin SC10 (with the Hi Lo lamp switch), Eiki SL1 or SSl1 and Elmo 16CL and then Bauer P6, P7 etc.
The only criticism of the B&H units is that they went to DC drive rather than a synchronous mains motor as all the others use and in doing so created problems with tiny fan motors that frequently run out of brushes when you least expect it and motor speed control electronics that was under engineered and often quite erratic.
I have 3 B&H 666 machines which have a sync mains motor are manual threaders and use Marc 300 lamps. Rock steady image, very bright up to 7 or 8m wide, good sound but very heavy and lamps are expensive and sometimes hard to get. As well they built in a push botton change-over system and IF you have the coupling cable is brilliant for 2 machine operation.. works like a dream.
Lindsay [Smile]

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 04-24-2004, 06:24 PM:

Ok. Nobody has mentioned this one. An older machine that I am aquainted with is the Victor Animatograph 65 series to the 75 series. These were made between 1956-57, and 1980. They were an improvement over the excellent Victor 40, 55, and 60 series machines that were very heavy.

I have 8 Victors that run perfectly. 2 of them are 70-15's that use the induction motor. They purr. IF there is a problem with the film during the show, the machine simply stops. Since I pre-inspect all that plays on my machines, this has never been a problem at all. If you get a Victor, you probably need to rebuild the amplifier, which could be had in a 25 watt size on most models.

I believe that Victor never built a professional version of their machines, though I have seen some of the 75 series machines that had a Marc 300 lamp.

I have an Eiki ST-R/M built in 1975, that has run almost daily since I got it in 1980. They are a PAIN to find urethane belts for... I am keeping my fingers crossed. No new belts on hand anymore!

The Eiki EX-2000A is a good xenon machine. I have 2 of them. They are auto-threaders, but load manually just fine. 25 watt amplifier sounds good.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 04-24-2004, 08:36 PM:

Victor did make an arc model which used the same chassis with out a lamphouse. I used to convert K/Victors with small ORC xenon lamphouses and make telecine units in the 1970's...great mechanism for conversions.

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 04-25-2004, 12:44 AM:

The Victor 1600 used a carbon arc lamphouse and had it's own pedestal base. I think this model used the then popular Strong Junior High lamphouse.

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 04-25-2004, 09:13 AM:

Thanks guys. Has anybody got a pic of this machine? A Victor with carbons. Yesss... [Eek!]

Posted by Jon Miller (Member # 163) on 04-25-2004, 12:16 PM:

Visit this thread, Bruce, and scroll down about three-quarters of the way. You may have missed it the last time around.

The thread also has a few comments on this fine machine.

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 142) on 04-26-2004, 08:59 AM:

Yep, the Bell and Howell 1680 gets my vote as well Lindsay. An excellent all round machine, its big brother the 2580 has the bigger amp and is great too. I also like the the later B and H with the Gemini lamp, a good compromise between a 666 and marc 300 short life/high cost and the 1680.

I have tried all major brands over the years, Eiki, Victor, Elmo (even disguised as a Kodak!) Bauer, Hokushin, Graflex/Singer, RCA, even a Cinevox Premiere - probably the worst as it had no rotary stabiliser, just a chrome slide over.

I would recommend that for the intended use here a new Eiki is purchased. It will come with a warranty, be brand new and should, after initial wearing in (burnishing) be excellent on film of all types. Most new projectors (35, 16 and 8) can do with several hours of older film through the gate to ensure rough surfaces are worn down and there are no faults that could damage valuable film.

I have found several faults in brand new projectors over the years including a 35mm projector sieze its movement and a Super 8 machine scratch film. Check first!

David Kilderry

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 04-26-2004, 11:19 AM:

The Hokushin SC-210 is a nice machine, but frankly looks, feels, and operates like a clone of the Eiki SSL, and given the rarity of the Hokushin and the huge number of SSL's around I personally retired my Hokushins in favor of the Eiki's (actually the xenon EX-3500's). One knock on the Hokuhins is that they lack the wonderful swing away scope brcket of the Eiki's. You're stuck with screw on adapters which get mighty heavy with the usual focus creep.

Posted by Christian Appelt (Member # 1067) on 04-26-2004, 12:59 PM:

The Bauer P8 T400 is one of my favourite portables. It runs silent, gives a bright picture and is gentle even to shrunk film stock. But I have no idea about availability and spare part supply for Bauer in the United States.
Next on my list would be Bell&Howell, we used them a lot at school, and they survived many a stupid teacher. [Smile]

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 04-26-2004, 04:15 PM:

A long shot this, but Kinoton made a semi-portable version of their FP18 until a few years ago (the FP18T). A superb machine, with their standard lamphouse, 6000ft reel capacity and easy conversion for Super-16mm as well.

Perhaps there might be a couple of second-hand ones in the States?

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 04-27-2004, 06:58 AM:

Thank you, Jon, for the link. I've never seen that Victor image before... Wonder why? I used to run a different computer...

Even funnier, I replied to the thread that you sent, Jon!

Ken Layton sent me an email with a pic of a Victor Arc. Thanks, Ken!

After owning a few Victor's, I love 'em. After I learned how to thread them properly, they are a breeze. Can thread mine in the dark...

Posted by Jerry Beck II (Member # 2339) on 04-28-2004, 10:00 AM:

We have a Kodak TV-16 Telecine projector we would be willing to part with... It is basically a Paegent with a 5 blade shutter wheel.

It has been replaced with RCA TP-66s... The inverse of portable.

The Kodak is pretty easy on the prints, and very stable images.

Optical and Mag sound.

We are considering E-bay at this time but would entertain offers...

Jerry Beck II
Vanguard Productions
614-436-4610
Columbus, Ohio

Posted by Larry Shaw (Member # 388) on 04-28-2004, 03:30 PM:

Brian,

Sadly no FP-18T's were sold in the US.

Posted by Katie Trainor (Member # 1149) on 04-28-2004, 03:44 PM:

Can anyone tell me about the ORC 1600-A ? having not seen this 16mm projector ( and realizing this very well maybe just the lamphouse I'm refering to above? ) a friend has been given this and wants to know more about it. any advice would help.
many thanks.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-28-2004, 08:49 PM:

I used to have several of the EL5000 portables

Posted by Larry Shaw (Member # 388) on 04-29-2004, 11:11 AM:

Katie,

An ORC 1600 is a lamphouse number. The "A" suffix I'm not sure about. Long ago ORC made a package of a Kodak Pageant and a ORC 1600 (with a solenoid operated douser) mounted on a lovely wood grain pressed wood base plate. Perhaps that is what your friend has. If you post a photo we could tell you much more.

Posted by Steven H. Krams (Member # 1461) on 04-29-2004, 07:23 PM:

16mm is certainly not dead!

Most serious schools still spec one out when putting together an auditorium. Although the traditional makers of these machines may have left the market there are still several sources.

There are two factories in China still making machines. They make a range of table top and Xenon Portable and Satationery units.

The Secondhand market is full of fine machines from all makers.

We actually do still make on Special order NEW JAN projectors. These old beasts have been upgraded with Solid State Amps, Sync Motors, and Halogen lamps.

Eiki and Elmo are good for light duty use and can be found aplenty in the secondhand market at very low prices.

Good Luck!

Steven Krams
President
Magna-Tech Electronic Co. Inc
Miami Fla.

Posted by Kevin Baglow (Member # 721) on 05-01-2004, 07:35 AM:

the Chinese still make a very nice portable. I was very happy with the manufacturing quality. Needless to say no one could possibly compete price wise. They have the same 1k Xenon that is used in the 105 portable 35mm projectors. They are manual thread with the 50amp rectifier in two small boxes that sit under the projector. The amp is separate. There is a pic on my website www.filmtheatres.com

Posted by Simon Nakonechny (Member # 2386) on 05-08-2004, 12:03 AM:

Wow!

Thanks for all the great suggestions guys, this advice will be invaluable in choosing what to purchase.

Thanks again,

Simon

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 05-08-2004, 06:27 AM:

If you can afford them, the JAN projectors are indestructible.

I am referring to experience with a pair that were built in 1970. Easy to use, and heavy. Nice, clear image, and good screen brightness. At least, these are still available from Mr. Krams.