Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: How to measure film?

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Posted by Richard Greco (Member # 2032) on 04-23-2004, 10:20 PM:

I was building Man On Fire yesterday and I found a message from FOX.

"Reel 5 the first frame is 12 feet from the "Picture Start" Frame. You Should neasure and cut accordingly. This frame is black."

It was close to that.

My question....How does one measure 12 feet on film? I have a frame counter but only know how to use it to find framelines in black. I dont know how to measure with it.

Any ideas for future films like that?

I ended up cutting about 2 feet from the #3 on the head. It seemed okay on the screen.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 04-23-2004, 10:25 PM:

If your frame counter only counts frames, and not feet and frames, just divide by 16 (frames per foot) to get feet from frames.

Posted by Richard Greco (Member # 2032) on 04-23-2004, 10:38 PM:

Thanks Daryl

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 04-23-2004, 10:45 PM:

Deleted by me as not being constructive or helpful to the original question.

>>> Phil

[ 04-25-2004, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: Phil Hill ]

Posted by Richard Greco (Member # 2032) on 04-23-2004, 10:50 PM:

Thanks Grand-POO-Bah Phil.

I bow to you!!! [Razz]

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 04-23-2004, 11:06 PM:

quote: Phil Hill
You didn't answer what he asked! He asked how to get from feet to frames.

I never said I was answering the question he asked! Dumbass!

Actually I did answer his question and then edited to confuse you.

quote:
The standard SMPTE leader length!

HA! Depend on it being a standard leader! You're crazy.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-23-2004, 11:06 PM:

I sometimes wonder how people in this industry miss checking with what the standard is for many things like the number of frames per foot (especially since it is in film note for reel people in the manual section of this site)
There seems to be a lot of topics as of late that a little research would go a long way to solving and other usefull skills learned along the way

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-24-2004, 12:21 AM:

Why don't the labs print clear frame lines? Or failing that, why do they cut reels at a point where there's a long black stretch. They should know it's just asking for trouble.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 04-24-2004, 12:29 AM:

Clear frame lines kill the contrast of scope films. If whoever is making up the print can't accurately measure a length of film they'd probably be more successful working in some other position.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 04-24-2004, 01:17 AM:

Take another leader that you've already cut from a different reel of that print. Line it up on top of the leader of the reel you want to cut that starts with black. By line it up, I mean line the count down digits on top of each other. Keeping the sprocket holes lined up, follow to the end and cut.

Piece of cake. Don't bother counting anything. If they printed the reel correctly, it will match the countdown of every other reel.

If you have weird countdowns like there were on Kill Bill (...6, 5, 4, 2) you might want to abandon this method and count frames instead! [Wink]

Posted by Chris Liczbinski (Member # 1957) on 04-24-2004, 02:51 AM:

I chose to build up "Man on Fire" exactly how Mark mentioned, just took another head from lets say reel 2 and lined it up with the head of reel 5 I think it was. This worked for me perfectly and was done fairly quick.

Posted by Peter Castle (Member # 1997) on 04-24-2004, 03:15 AM:

Now that most of the territory on 35mm film is being processed, why can't the frame lines be marked in between the sprocket holes on the picture side of the film (other side to the Dolby Digital) ?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-24-2004, 08:44 AM:

The other edge is still reserved by Dolby

Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 04-24-2004, 09:51 AM:

Richard,

I'm curious as to what make and model of footage counter you have, since I don't see that you ever mentioned it only counts in frames.

Is there anything wrong with the leader? Why would the letter ask to measure 12 feet from the 'START' frame when 3 feet from the '3' frame (assuming an Academy leader marked in foot increments) is much faster?

Remember that the beginning of the soundtrack is not a guideline to cutting the film, because the soundtrack starts ~21 frames ahead of the first frame of picture (and there's no guarantee that the soundtrack will appear active).

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 04-24-2004, 06:44 PM:

quote:
I chose to build up "Man on Fire" exactly how Mark mentioned... This worked for me perfectly and was done fairly quick.

Posted by Richard Greco (Member # 2032) on 04-24-2004, 11:31 PM:

Christopher,

I'm not sure why the studio sent that in the can to measure like that. I am thinking and I think that my counter goes to 16 frames and goes up a number. I think that it does count feet as well.

Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 04-25-2004, 09:08 AM:

That means that your counter does indeed count frames and feet. Post make and model information and we could verify that, but I assume it's a Neumade.

Practice measuring with a scrap piece of film on which you have marked frame numbers, say from 1 to 32 (2 feet). Zero the counter by turning the knob toward you until the counter reads exactly 0 feet 0 frames, with the 0's centered in the display as closely as possible. Note that the film must travel from left to right for the counter to go forward. Put the film in the counter (in frame of course) so that the frame just before the '1' frame is on the top of the sprocket. Now, pull the film so that the '1' frame is on top; the counter should read 1 frame. The '16' frame should read as 1 foot; the '24' frame as 1 foot 8 frames; the '32' frame as 2 feet.

[ 04-25-2004, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: Christopher Seo ]

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 04-26-2004, 05:01 PM:

Christopher asked :

quote: Christopher Seo
Is there anything wrong with the leader? Why would the letter ask to measure 12 feet from the 'START' frame when 3 feet from the '3' frame (assuming an Academy leader marked in foot increments) is much faster?

"12 feet from the Start Mark" is a standard reference for First Frame of Picture (FFP) that editorial staff use in post-production.

All the same thing, just different "languages"!

Personally I think it's a bit ambitious for the distributor to expect everybody to have frame counters (when they cost more than some xenon lamps do), and also the time to measure exactly to the correct frame if they don't - and this also promotes unnecessary handling of the picture as well.

As per Mike's post, the correct practice is to have the Lab scribe, on the interneg / neg, the frame line and the words "Cut Here" with an arrow pointing to the frame line. This obviously shows up very clearly in the black section of leader after the countdown.

Mike also said :

quote: Mike Blakesley
why do they cut reels at a point where there's a long black stretch. They should know it's just asking for trouble.

The film must have had a fade out at the end of reel 4, and hence reel 5 fades in. Or perhaps reel 5 starts black for other reasons, e.g. a black screen that sometimes turns out to be a clever camera move where they start on a person's back or something - we've all seen it!

It's sometimes difficult for editors to avoid fades or cuts to and from black at the start and ends of reels. This is because the reels are "balanced" so that scenes start at the head and end at the tail. If you think about it, putting reel changes in the middle of scenes would be a nightmare in terms of dialogue / sound effects editing, as well as grading issues.

I once worked as an assistant picture and sound editor - and very enjoyable it was too...if you're into that kind of thing!

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-26-2004, 05:15 PM:

quote: Brian Guckian
It's sometimes difficult for editors to avoid fades or cuts to and from black at the start and ends of reels. This is because the reels are "balanced" so that scenes start at the head and end at the tail. If you think about it, putting reel changes in the middle of scenes would be a nightmare in terms of dialogue / sound effects editing, as well as grading issues.

OK, I can see that, but if I was a film maker I think I would prefer a couple of frames mid-scene being lost over the 8-week mainstream life of the print, rather than an entire scene being screwed up for the whole run because some idiot removed four feet of black film and screwed up my fade-in!

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 04-26-2004, 05:26 PM:

But wouldn't mid-scene be even worse? You now have sound and picture discontinuity. Unless said scene was static, any interruption would be noticeable.

In any case, wouldn't any slight changes in grading be jarringly obvious in this scenario?

Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 04-27-2004, 10:54 AM:

I've seen some films where the reel changes usually occurred mid-scene... which is very helpful if you're trying to determine reel order.

Then I've seen a few ("Sixth Sense" comes to mind) where the reel changes seem deliberately placed right after a scene change, i.e., after the establishing shot of the new location.

It all seems to be preference of the editor... who perhaps thought the cue marks would be less noticeable if placed in the middle of some action.

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 04-30-2004, 05:21 PM:

Thanks for the info Christopher ... I stand corrected!

I wonder why this happens though - if it's to do with Cue Marks then surely that's a bad reason.

Perhaps it's also to do with Non Linear Editing (NLE) systems - such as AVID, Lightworks or Final Cut Pro - where the action can be watched continuously without reel breaks. In the past, using a Moviola or a Kem flatbed film editing machine (or a Steenbeck in Europe), you could only watch 10 or 20 mins at a time since you were working with a film cutting copy instead of digital images, hence there may have been more awareness of reel changes, and the need to place these between scenes rather than within them.