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Posted by Oliver Pasch (Member # 1335) on 04-27-2004, 09:44 AM:
 
Dear colleagues,

are you satisfied with the supply of films featuring EX (or ES) encoding? We've bought not a few systems to be able to play the films the way they are pretended to be seen - or heard - and the way audiences expect them to be, but we don't see films featuring this format - well, it's more an addition anyway - often today. Actually, the list of upcoming films is not even short, it's more or less non-existent. None of the upcoming blockbusters, such as "Troya", "Day after tomorrow" or "Van Helsing" is announced as EX, not even the third "Harry Potter", even though his predecessors have been.

Is EX dead?

Congratulations to the manufacturer, that more than 20 % of his digital format installations feature EX, but does this match that - estimated - not one percent of the films support EX?

What are the reasons for this? Do sound-engineers not like EX?
I tend to say that audiences definitely do and that even the same manufacturer provides a solution for not EX-encoded soundtracks with the ProLogicIIx-technology for home-cinema-audio, enabling to play every 5.1-feature in reasonable 7.1, which doesn't sound bad or artifical at all, definitely not comparable to such bad DSP-soundfields á la "Stadium".

What do you think?
 

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Posted by Jeremy Fuentes (Member # 2135) on 04-27-2004, 09:59 AM:
 
Now you see the problem that theaters who have digital projection face. They spent who knows how many thousands of dollars and only a few movies are distributed for digital. What a waste!
 

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Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 04-27-2004, 02:18 PM:
 
The theatres have all been doing an awful job promoting this- I worked at one that got it installed in 2 auditoriums before Phantom Menace came out, and to this day they have not mentioned it once in any of their advertising or box office stuff (they didn't really promote DTS when they put it in 2 auditoriums either- they'd sometimes show one print in DTS and another in analog but not indicate which was which). When I did the phone recordings I mentioned it there but nobody else did. I don't know if any other theatres in this area have EX since they don't advertise it either!
It's been next to impossible to tell whether most films are supposed to be played with EX on or off also; don't know if that's changed recently.
 

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Posted by Kyle Watkins (Member # 986) on 04-28-2004, 12:20 AM:
 
How much extra would it cost to add EX. Say this was during construction.

Kyle
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-28-2004, 01:01 AM:
 
The cost of equipping an existing theater for Dolby-EX or DTS-ES is relatively small. You're out $2,000 to $3,000 for a Dolby SA-10 unit, or a DTS-ES model, or any other offering out there. Add in some extra wiring work, possibly the need for an additional amplifer or two and my guess is you may still get out under $5,000 for the upgrade.

Doesn't the Dolby CP-650 processor already have DD-EX built in?

At any rate, adding in a matrixed extended surround process is a very low cost thing when compared to other items like video projection, which costs well over $100,000 per screen.

Overall, this is just a symptom of movie studios no longer taking the commercial theatrical market seriously at all. I'm not the only one who believes movie studios are merely using the theatrical market as a rehearsal/sales-pitch for the home video release.

If most DVD driven home theater equipment had DD-EX and DTS-ES built in from the start there might have been a chance for better title support theatrically. But even still, more movies surprisingly get DD-EX treatment on DVD than they do in theatrical release. Again, the theatrical release is very often just a rehearsal for the home release. You get a decent audio mix for the commercial theater and then they pull out all the stops later for the cranked up "near field" discrete 6.1 mix.

I strongly agree that DD-EX and DTS-ES has been very poorly promoted in theatrical release. Very often, the DD-EX logo is left off of one sheet posters for films with a DD-EX mix. I have personally not seen a single one sheet at all bearing a DTS-ES logo. I've seen a few DVDs boasting about it however.

Technical info about sound and projection has disappeared from most movie theater stack ads. That leaves customers to assume every theater is equipped with digital surround sound when many still are not.

Finally, lots of movie theaters don't do much to brag about their sound and projection systems when they have any reason to brag. A few theaters still use the THX and sound format snipes on a regular basis, but those clips have disappeared from most others. You see them more often on DVD (especially that damned DTS "piano" trailer that needs to be replaced with something NEW).

In the end, DD-EX may not be dead but it is definitely comatose and on life support when it comes to the theatrical version.

Just as frustrating, DTS' new XD-10 still has no theatrical title support to take advantage of all its extra capability. I have a feeling the only way we'll hear 10 channel surround coming from this thing is when it is hooked up to a 15/70 or 8/70 special venue system. The folks running the regular commercial end of the film business seem to think straight 5.1 is "good enough" for commercial theaters.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-28-2004, 08:21 AM:
 
Surround-EX does appear to be going the way of SDDS-8.

As to the cost...it depends on the EX processor you choose. The SA-10 is certainly the worst bang for the buck. It has a rather limited equalizer...it is unbalanced in and it consumes way too much rack space for what it does. It also is poorly laid out for set up. How are you supposed to set the input level on the thing? Oh yeah, reach around back and measure 120mV with tone running and then adjust from the front. They couldn't provide test points or some sort of meter?

Panastereo's SP23 is probably the best bang for the buck. It is 1-U tall, under $2K, even with 1/3 Octave EQ on all three surround channels, has meters on the front that are set using pink noise (easily had on ALL processors) and otherwise just works.

DTS' offering recognizes that when in 3-channel mode and 2-channel mode that you probably need different equalizations depending on the surround groupings (EX or stereo surround) and is also only 1-U tall.

As for the CP-650...the typical unit, the CP-650D, does not include Surround-EX but the no-suffix CP650 does. A clear advantage here is that it is auto-sensing. Modern EX films have a status bit in their code to trigger the Auto-EX mode in the CP-650. The CP-650 EX option is knocking in the $1000 range. The CP-650 also offers 1/3 octave EQ for all four surround quandrents which is the best way to handle the channels.

Coming along for the ride on the EX board is also the ability to decode consumer and pro AC-3 bit streams as well as regular PCM data on AES3 pairs. So you get more than just EX and if you run DVDs and such for alternative content, there is great value here. A quirk of the CP-650 is that if you use the EX board, you have to wire your surrounds to the option I/O connector...inlcuding Ls and Rs...there is no valid excuse for the primary 6 channels not being able to stay on the main output connector. The least Dolby could have done is to provide programmable links to allow for this on the rear of the unit.

Steve
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-28-2004, 09:11 AM:
 
Ex seems to be popular with the bollywood stuff
 

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Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 04-28-2004, 07:13 PM:
 
Most of the EX features now have DTS-ES discs shipped with them (yet they still say six track), is one recording mirroring the other, or are they doing each format's mix seperately?
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-29-2004, 11:52 AM:
 
All Dolby Digital EX and DTS-ES theatrical mixes are 5.1 channels, not 6.1. They are essentially the same as any standard Dolby Digital or DTS track. The difference is the Left Surround and Right Surround channels are merely mixed to work in the same way Dolby Pro-Logic handles 2 channel material across Left, Center and Right speakers. If the audio levels are identical in the LS and RS channels, the audio gets shifted to the center surround channel.

Mixing for extended surround happens in the audio design process with uncompressed digital and/or magnetic analog material. The sound design in the surround channels will make any of the digital formats work with DD-EX or DTS-ES. You can have an SDDS unit hooked up to a DTS-ES machine and get the DD-EX effect.

Dolby has a section in its advertising guidelines that specifically states Dolby EX must be described as a 5.1 channel format and not 6.1.

The DTS-ES format is pretty confusing in that the home version has both matrixed 5.1 ES and discrete true 6.1 modes. The new DTS XD-10 processor also has the capability of handling DTS-ES 6.1 discrete material, as well as audio tracks up to 10 channels (or even higher than that if additional upgrades are made to the unit).
 

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Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-29-2004, 02:42 PM:
 
I may be mistaken but doesn't the Dolby EX have a flag encoded into the track information that tells the EX encoder to turn on the back channel when needed.
 

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Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 04-29-2004, 07:28 PM:
 
I think the new systems do, but the ones I worked with were added on to CP-65's and had to be turned on or off manually. I usually kept it on all the time, as it didn't ruin any soundtracks that might not have been mixed with it (and I'm very picky about that sort of thing.) Not sure how they're run now that I don't work there anymore. If the films did have a flag, they should have also labeled them as having EX.
 

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Posted by John McConnel (Member # 2000) on 04-29-2004, 09:44 PM:
 
We have a 650 with EX, and it has indicated EX on every picture that's played on it. Right now, it has PUNISHER. It says that PUNISHER is EX, and from listening to it in the auditorium, it appears to be EX. Is this not correct?
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-29-2004, 11:55 PM:
 
Apparently not.

"The Punisher" is not listed on Dolby's web site as being an official EX title (Dolby's list was last updated in December of 2003). Going by that list, none of the summer's upcoming films are going to be DD-EX. Of course, that could change at the last minute. The previous holiday season saw only three DD-EX releases ("LOTR: Return of the King," "Master and Commander," "Peter Pan,").

I'm not denying the data flag's possible existence on "The Punisher" audio track. However, it does raise my suspicion someone somewhere in the film audio mastering process is just leaving a switch "on" all the time.

Title support (at least theatrically) seems pretty weak for DD-EX. There is a decent amount of support in places like India and Thailand. Overall, I'm not sure if that is enough to keep DD-EX going.

And to be quite honest, DD-EX is really an interim workaround format. It may be time for theaters to boost the number of sound channels upward for theatrical audio tracks. Of course, the movie industry will drag their heels on that while they leverage everything toward DVD release. If a next generation of surround sound is to arrive, I would predict it coming from special venue theaters. IMAX, Iwerks and other large format producers should take advantage of items like the DTS-XD10 or other types of playback technology to deliver 10 channel (or more) audio tracks.
 

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Posted by Oliver Pasch (Member # 1335) on 04-30-2004, 03:23 AM:
 

quote: Bobby Henderson

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Of course, that could change at the last minute

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You're right! "Matrix Reloaded", "Matrix Revolutions" and "Men in Black II" had been listed there for a very long time as EX, but shortly before the opening the EX-logo disappeared...

...question is, if they've ever been planned as EX or if this announcement was just to increase hardware sales.

I do not regard EX as a technical or audiophile must in theatres, actually a lot of people won't even realize that it is, the question is about marketing and dissociating a theatrical presentation from home-cinema. Once again: Pro-LogicIIx-technology enables people at home to play everything in 6. or 7.1 (or whatever, more than 5.1 in any case), why shouldn't we do so in our theatres. It should be no problem to have a IIx-Update for a CP-650-like-DSP-grave.

And finally the same company has now announced the "Plus"-technology for their format on DVDs, suggesting even higher audio quality in competing markets. I can't see from the informations that this is intended to be introduced to 35mm as well. Again: i don't believe that you will hear a difference from a let's say 24Bit/96KHZ-format theatrically as long as there's someone with loads of popcorn sitting next to you, but that's another point that might suggest that the theatrical version of films or their presentation withholds something from the audience.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-30-2004, 11:16 AM:
 
I saw that blurb about "Plus" at Dolby's web site. I would need to know more about how it works to be sold on it. If it is supposed to accomplish higher audio quality while working within the confines of the 384kb/s and 448kb/s rates on DVD then I would be a bit skeptical. The same goes for the theatrical DD format. You're really not going to get anymore out of it with it running at only 320kb/s (technically there's around 550kb/s streaming from the film print, but that extra data is there for redundancy and error correction).

If Dolby is going to do anything new in terms of theatrical surround sound they're going to be better off adopting a dual system approach. I would recommend something not much different from DTS' XD-10. Definitely a hard disc based solution. Dolby could stick a new time code over on the right side of the film strip in between the sprocket holes, or even use a standard Dolby Digital track and film reader to provide the synch.

quote: Oliver Pasch

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Again: i don't believe that you will hear a difference from a let's say 24Bit/96KHZ-format theatrically as long as there's someone with loads of popcorn sitting next to you

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This is why I think it would be better to have more discrete channels of sound rather than just blowing standard 5.1 up to very high rez levels. Unless the theater has a top flight sound system with perfectly dialed in EQ, you're not going to hear much benefit of 24/96 audio above what you hear with standard 16-bit or 20-bit LPCM. The audience will derive more benefit from a greater number of discrete sound channels. More people will hear proper surround coverage rather than the big left-right effect commonly heard now in most theaters with 5.1.
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 05-01-2004, 11:03 AM:
 
Didn't DTS come out with a "surround system" that would set off strobes, fog, etc. in the auditorium when triggered by the timecode? (I think it was mentioned here before, used on The Lost World?)

THAT is what theaters need to do. Something that people can't replicate in their homes. More sound channels won't do anything since most people don't notice the ones that are there already.

=TMP=
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-01-2004, 11:42 AM:
 
The trailer for "Jurassic Park: The Lost World" had a strobe light system that synched to the time code. I never saw the trailer, but can only sensibly guess the strobe lights synched to the lightning flashes in the trailer.

I'm not sure how far this off the screen effects thing can be taken, although it is very easy to synchronize using time code. What else can be done besides fog and strobe lights? Maybe there can be a big fart smelling up the auditorium, with South Park's "Cartman" going, "Aw, you guys!"

I disagree about audiences not noticing more channels of sound. The EX thing is not discrete, so that weakens its effect. The DTS XD-10 can play discrete 6.1, 7.1, 9.1 etc. The film studios just have to create a sound mix for it to play. Right now they're just not doing it.

DTS made a mistake in introducing the XD-10 without introducing a cinema processor that could take full advantage of its various channel layouts. IMHO, DTS should have worked with a company like Panastereo to develop a 12 channel cinema processor. That would have been the ticket.
 

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Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 10-29-2004, 12:10 AM:
 
I've just received the Italian copy of "The Village".

I saw the 5-digit serial on the DTS disks and the "DTS-ES" logo on the disks.

On the film can there is "SRD - DTS"
On the Titles there is "SRD - DTS"
Our CP650 does not recognize the EX flag.

The film is listed in the EX encoded film on DOlby's site.

Ok, The Village has three or four surround effects, but the question is another: why should I spend money on EX equipment if then I have to guess by myself when a movie is on EX or not????

I can bet that 99% of Italian's cinema are not projecting "The VIllage" in EX/ES.

Is the same there?

Bye
A
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 10-29-2004, 06:34 AM:
 

quote: Antonio Marcheselli

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why should I spend money on EX equipment if then I have to guess by myself when a movie is on EX or not????

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Antonio....you hit it right on the head; if the studio that releases a title doesn't promote the sound process in its ads and lobby displays, why on earth would an exhibitor spend a penny more than he has to, to upgrade his system? And I am not totally convinced that audiences can hear the extra channels; you tell 'em you've got 360 degree sound and by George, 80 percent of them with swear they hear sound coming from directly behind them. We call our sound system Six Channel Total Surround MegaSound. Now, "Total Surround" already implies that no matter how many channels you add, you can't get much more "surround" than TOTAL surround. Besides, "not for nuthin" as they say here in Brooklyn, total surround says it directly; can be easily and more readily understood by the average Joe than if you said we had DTS-EX, which by the way, is the same as Dolby-ES, which is even MORE confusing to the patron. Now if we could only get patrons to grow ears in the back of their heads.....heh heh.

And as for the off-screen effects -- critics have always lambasted films were the special effects are not seamless but draw attention to themselves instead of serving the film; and this is when they are PART of the film. So it pretty much goes without saying that when you are talking about strobe lights flashing or buzzers going off under the seats apart from the film, critics won't be taking to kindly to that kind of schstick. Do that kind of thing and you're getting closer to a movie "ride" than a real movie. How do you prevent these effects from being nothing but gimmicks when they are off- screen? Probably not possible. And as Bobby said, maybe a few strobe effects, maybe a mirror ball, perhaps some fog....this kind of stuff would get hokey really fast -- and how many of them could producers come up with before they start straining to get the gimmicks, however awkward and tortured, into the script?

Was it THE TINGLER, where they had a skeleton rigged to come out of a little curtained cage and travel across the theatre and then back again while Vincent Price seemingly controlled it with strings. Only thing was, all us kids stayed for the second and third shows so we could try to whack it off it's rigging by thrown anything that could be wadded into a ball at it the second it started out its hiding place. Naw, that stuff is better kept in amusement parks.
 

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Posted by Don Furr (Member # 1469) on 10-29-2004, 07:44 AM:
 
Frank......
Close but no cigar
The skeleton was used in House On Haunted Hill.

Don
 

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Posted by Edward Jurich (Member # 1787) on 10-29-2004, 09:11 AM:
 
Could it be possible that most of the theater going public really don't care if it's EX, ES, DTS, POS, ETC. We run optical Dolby and get comments on how good the sound is. There is probably a small percentage of audience that is into audio enough to seek out special audio formats.
 

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Posted by Timothy Eiler (Member # 383) on 10-29-2004, 02:44 PM:
 

quote: Edward Jurich

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Could it be possible that most of the theater going public really don't care if it's EX, ES, DTS, POS, ETC.

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quote: Edward Jurich

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Could it be possible that most of the theater going public really don't care if it's EX, ES, DTS, POS, ETC.

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quote: Mark Gulbrandsen

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Really depends on what area of the country you are in and so on

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quote: Edward Jurich

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Could it be possible that most of the theater going public really don't care if it's EX, ES, DTS, POS, ETC.

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I get a few teachers, alumni and benefactors of the college who ask me what the difference between our equipment and Tinseltown's equipment is. I tell them, "The only difference between them and us that we don't have digital sound."

That surprises them right there. Somehow they think that the kind of equipment Tinseltown uses is some sort of secret. Then they realize that our overall presentation is a little bit better than theirs. (Primarily because our projector is attended 100% of the time during shows but also because I spend more time working on our system to keep in in top shape.)

I think the thing that surprises people is that we put on a better show WITHOUT digital sound than Tinseltown does WITH. I'm constantly getting replies like, "Really?! Wow!". It's as if people think that everything has to be digital to be good.

If I know the person has the potential to donate some money to the college I do two things:

1) Invite them up to the booth to see the equipment.

2) Casually inform them that, for just a few thousand dollars, we can have digital sound too!

When people judge how good your theater is, I think most people walk in the door with a preconceived notion of what they are going to see.

I think they only believe what they hear and they only hear what they believe.
 

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Posted by Michael Wilkinson (Member # 2389) on 10-31-2004, 04:38 AM:
 
To answer Thomas's question: Yes they did. I'm not sure how many ES units were made with effects generating capability. Mine does (#1012); the wierd thing was that DTS never really seemed interested to explain how to work it.

From what I do know is that I can program my unit to synchronize up to eight separate effects units such as strobes, snow blowers, flame thowers, etc. to operate in any combination during any points in the film that I so choose. I decided not to pursue the effects since my theatre has lots of steps. Can you say lawsuit?

For effects, the ES unit must be linked in parallel with the DTS6 or 6D to the timecode reader. The ES unit displays the reel, and frame numbers to which you could set your effects. The DTS timecode also does provide the logic to the ES unit for automatically switching in and out of ES depending on the intended format.

I will also say that I am dissappointed that the unit usually sits idle and when the green led lights up indicating that the film is in ES, it is almost always a suprise.

As far as sound quality... the good thing for me was that I upgraded all of my speakers for the "Phantom Menace". In so doing and advertising that I was the only theatre for 60 miles with ES (or whatever), rear surround or not, it put my place on the map.

Do they know what ES,EX,CS,DD,DTS,SDDS,THX are? Most probably don't or can't tell whether it is or isn't, however I believe that people can at least tell the difference between good and mediocre even if they can't put their finger on it.

I have the Incredibles starting Friday...I think it is in ES since the preview is...But that hasn't always been the case. Does anyone know for sure?
 

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Posted by Michael Wilkinson (Member # 2389) on 10-31-2004, 04:38 AM:
 
Slow internet led to a repeat
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 10-31-2004, 11:38 AM:
 
Randy, I know what you mean about Tinseltown theaters in general. I have often been very disappointed about the audio quality in their theaters, even brand new ones.

In Colorado Springs, when the newest Cinemark theater opened, my brother and I watched an IMAX 3D movie there and "Rush Hour 2". The IMAX 3D show was pretty cool. But the presentation of "Rush Hour 2" sucked. The sound was awful. I went up to the back row and looked through the port glass. The film was threaded through the DTS reader, the rack equipment was playing digital. Still, the sound quality was so poor that it sounded like bad analog. Little to no bass response. Occaisional discrete activity in the surrounds was the only clue the show had a digital soundtrack. I don't know if it is Cinemark's choice in amplifiers and speakers or that their techs just don't know how to EQ a room. At any rate it is just awful. I saw "Seabiscuit" at the same theater a couple years later and the sound quality was still bad.

[ 11-01-2004, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: Bobby Henderson ]
 

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Posted by David Favel (Member # 1125) on 10-31-2004, 06:10 PM:
 
Beware of EX trailers when the movie is not EX. The last example was Shark Tale.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 10-31-2004, 11:09 PM:
 
Bobby,

I used to WORK for Cinemark! I know how things can be sometimes.
As hard as I used to work getting theaters looking and sounding as good as I knew how, I never felt like there were more than a handful of theaters that were any good!

I tried like hell and worked my ass off some days only to have some snot-nosed kid come around behind me and screw it all up again. Sometimes only HOURS after leaving the theater!

The truth of the matter is that most commercial theaters, be they Cinemark or not, don't have enough qualified people to keep 10 to 20 projectors running their best. They're lucky to get one or two good technicians to go around, from theater to theater, fixing things that break and barely keeping shows on the screen!

Dolby EX?! Fog Machines with special effects?! Are you kidding?! Most places can barely keep the equipment they already have running in half-decent condition!

No theater company executive in his right mind would pay for equipment like that under these conditions!
 

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Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 11-11-2004, 03:04 PM:
 

quote: Jack Ondracek

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OK... playing devil's advocate for the moment:

Do any of you really believe that, in a town full of theatres playing "movie X", more customers will seek out the theatre that is playing the show in

EX?
Digital?
DLP?

... enough so that the investment would clearly be to the benefit of the exhibitor?

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