Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Print changes theatres-what's easiest?

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Posted by Blake Zaugg (Member # 1455) on 05-03-2004, 01:06 AM:

As a move over house, we often receive our prints from other theatres in town. Often we will go over thurs night to pick it up. In your opinion what is the easiest. 1) To move it on a film mover, 2) Break it down onto 2 X 6000ft reels or 3) have the other theatre break it down completly and then rebuild it from scratch.

Our projectionist said that he would rather build it from scratch.... I admit I don't know much about it, but to me it seems like a lot of extra work for everyone to do it that way. Basically wouldn't he just need to look for the other theatres cues and then put ours on? (and take off their trailers FP and add ours in too)

What do you think?

Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 05-03-2004, 01:47 AM:

Easiest? or " Film Done Right " ?

I think your projectionist has the right idea. I wouldn't trust a partially made up print coming in on 6000's made by someone else.

Posted by Josh Kirkhart (Member # 1046) on 05-03-2004, 02:00 AM:

My Opinion:
Easiest: have them break down and you build it up again. No worrys about returning 6000 reels and such. Choice depends on theatre relations. Also gives the most flexibility.
Best: Pick up on 6000 reels. This allows the theatre to remove any ads or previews that are thiers, and the pick-up theatre to add thier pre-show package at the make-up table and check or change any pre-show cues. Obviously the bulk of the quality check would be made at the platter, unless you do as I and run thru the 6000's at the table to replace splices, cues and check for any missed factory splices. If you do all the checks at the table its just as much work as re-building a print but puts less wear on the print that may be broken down and then built up again.
Its all about Quality control.

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 05-03-2004, 02:50 AM:

we move them on 6k's, at least when it's within the company. the problem being, they always come in with no protective leader whatsoever, secured with masking tape (to the hub as well). i don't know how the other theaters ship their prints out, but it might be just as risky to have them break them down all the way for us.

and of course we have to live with their yucky splices. the last print we got moved over i discovered had some torn edges, one even going 1/3 of the way into the frame. i fixed those, but since that's just what i saw looking at it on the platter, there may be more. based on that, i think in the future i'll do like josh and go over it on the rewinds first, inspecting and remaking splices. that'll make it easier to check the cues as well.

carl

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-03-2004, 03:42 AM:

Most people are bad enough as it is with film handling, and breakdown seems an unusually common area of poor handling.

BEST OPTION:
Drop off your handy dandy Goldberg platter reel and have them take up on it. If they insist on running their trailer pack for that last show, return it to them later. Then when you get it to your theater, you can wind through it to another large reel (or split it to two 6Ks yourself) for inspection and splice repair.

GOOD OPTION:
Have them break it down to 6K reels. That way they will only mangle one part of the film moreso than they already have. At least you know it's all in the right order and you only have to re-inspect it to fix their crappy splices.

NOT GOOD OPTION:
Have them break it down to the shipping cans. That way they are sure to mangle the film as much as possible before you get it.

Let's face it, most theaters don't know how to handle film. The trick is to get the film away from them with as little handling on their end as possible.

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 05-03-2004, 03:37 PM:

When I used to get moveovers from the other theater in town (Regal owned) we were on good terms with them, most of the staff had at some point worked there, so they were pretty decent about things.
On more than one occasion I've loaded up a print still on the ring in the trunk of my car and then broken it onto 6k's myself. Talk about minimal handling!
However being able to do that without any ancillary equipment would be a bit difficult if the roll wasn't very tight. They had AW3's that wrapped just as tight as mine so it was a piece of cake...

Although, when we got our transfer GM it was more enjoyable making him carry it [Wink]

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-03-2004, 03:46 PM:

Assuming that we're talking about transferring prints between two platter houses here, I'd say that the situation depends upon how much each theatre trusts the other.

If I am shipping out a print to a theatre where I don't know or trust anyone, then it goes out on 2000' reels or on an old bent platter ring (the receiving theatre must supply clamps and return said bent ring).

If I trust the other theatre and know the operator personally, I will happily provide it in whatever form is requested: platter ring (which will be returned), large reels (which will be returned or rewound onto other theatre's large reels), or 2000' reels. If no one calls the theatre to ask that the print be delivered in some nonstandard way, it goes out on 2000' reels.

If I'm on the receiving end and I trust the sending theatre, I prefer to have prints delivered on 6000' reels, which I can inspect at the bench. If I do not trust the previous theatre, I want 2000' reels.

When shipping on 6000' reels, I expect the sending theatre to attach the appropriate leaders (or at least clear leader) to the head and tail of each big reel in order to protect the film in shipment.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 05-03-2004, 07:48 PM:

Seems this subject came up at some point and time maybe not it's own thread. I prefer theaters pick up a film on 6000 foot reels. Anyone who wants to move a print using clamps outside the theater is asking for trouble to happen.

Posted by Brian Michael Weidemann (Member # 2243) on 05-03-2004, 08:09 PM:

I'm in no way advocating the behavior I'm about to describe, but merely as a chronicle of my experience, I'll say that this is how "it was done" when I started up in this crazy business, when we were all naïve.

I was working at an Edwards second-run "discount" eight-plex and every week we got whatever the "Big" Edwards 15 across town lost. Every Thursday night consisted of rounding up clamps and rings to take, as we personally were responsible for retrieving the prints.

It was not unusual to transfer four or five prints in one trip. Most auditoriums were doubled up (in fact, one week we programmed a 17 title schedule ... yes, in 8 auditoriums). The thing was, who has enough clamps to properly secure five prints as they were carried to car trunks and hauled across town? We used (brace yourself) an awful lot (I'm warning you) of good, ol' fashioned (last chance) ... DUCT TAPE. Wrapped a few times over in three key locations, a print wasn't falling apart for nothing.

What the story doesn't say is how many brainwraps were caused due to duct tape residue on the bottoms of prints. ... Oh, the good old days.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 05-03-2004, 09:44 PM:

I have personally moved scores of prints on rings secured with duct tape, and NEVER have had any print damage or functionality problems (wraps, feed troubles, etc.) with the prints when I or most of the other theatres that received them projected them.

However, one of the theatres that received prints from me in this fashion used to routinely complain that my duct tape moving caused brainwraps, but I can attest that the problems had to have been more static and operator related, and not due to the use of duct tape.

Unfortunately, the manager there convinced the DM and others that it was the tape, and from then on I was no longer allowed to move a print on a ring with tape of any kind securing it.... Oh well.

-Aaron

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-03-2004, 09:44 PM:

I like the ShowShippers.

Each theater should have one. On moving day you take an empty ShowShipper with you when you go to the other theater to pick up the print. You give them the empty reel. They give you a full one.

Yes, there is a cost issue but:

(A) Each theater bears half the cost.
(B) It will save labor. Less labor = less payroll.
(C) The cost of replacing one dropped or damaged print will be many times what both ShowShippers cost.
(D) The same goes for damaged projectors, etc. from trying to play a messed up print.

Aside from the cost this arrangement would require a certain level of trust and cooperation between theaters. However, if you can work it out, I think it would more than pay for itself in the long run.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-03-2004, 10:40 PM:

I have personally received a few prints wrapped in duct tape and yes it DOES cause payout problems. Maybe the duct tape these theaters used was mega-crappy and Aaron's duct tape was of higher quality, but I could see the payout arm go nuts every three rotations of the platter and often a few laps of film being pulled out of the film roll at one time. I also question what kind of cinch scratching duct tape brings, since there is nothing solid holding the film flat. I can't much comment on that because the prints I got were so crappy I rejected them. Of course this coming from a "duct tape theater" didn't surprise anyone. (Sorry Aaron [Razz]

)

Wanna see something really nasty? Wrap a print in duct tape, then get it hot by leaving it in the back of a SUV for awhile before bringing it into the theater. Go ahead...try it! [evil]

Duct tape is evil.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-03-2004, 11:15 PM:

Why do so many theatres refuse to have the proper equipment? [Roll Eyes]

The Goldberg Platter Reel is the safest way to move a print that has been made up.

You are moving something that's worth over $1000. Trying to do it yourself, you are risking spilling the print, or injuring yourself. This is no time to improvise. [thumbsdown]

Posted by Brian Michael Weidemann (Member # 2243) on 05-04-2004, 04:35 AM:

quote:
Wanna see something really nasty? Wrap a print in duct tape, then get it hot by leaving it in the back of a SUV for awhile before bringing it into the theater. Go ahead...try it!

Seen it, been there, done that. [Razz]

I don't care to try it again. We, apparently, had the crappy duct tape.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-04-2004, 04:39 AM:

Agreed entirely with Scott in that it depends on the relationship between the two cinemas.

When I worked in the arthouse sector you could get a very accurate impression of what state a print would be in before you'd even opened the transit case - the label indicating which cinema it had crossed over from told you that. There were some places I would have been happy to receive a made-up print from, and others from which I would have almost certainly broken it down and rebuilt it purely as a precaution. If you're comfortable that the projectionists at the place you cross over with are professionals, and they feel the same way about you, I can't see any reason not to move the full programmes on platter reels. If you're going to be doing it regularly in the long term (swapping films, I mean!), it might even be worth thinking about standardising your automation cues, so that they are compatible with each other.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 05-04-2004, 10:33 PM:

I think you're missing Brad's point.

If you don't trust the other theatre, then you want to receive the print on the largest reels/transport possible, so they don't have the chance to damage the print during breakdown.

You'll still need to go and check/remake all their splices, but at least you'll have the confidence that they didn't damage the print during breakdown.

--jhawk

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 05-05-2004, 12:04 AM:

I'm with Scott and Leo on this... with a small addition.
When we were circuiting prints from a local chain house to our drive-in, we generally got prints that were totally trashed. It was kind of wierd, but I refused to accept any further circuits from that theatre (owned by a very large national chain).

Now, the drive-in is very close, or on the break, so it's not as big a deal. The only local circuits we do is from our own indoor, so I'm comfortable circuiting on large reels & not having to pay too much attention to the splices. In that sense, knowing where and from whom you're getting your circuits can make a difference.

Posted by Bruk Mogos (Member # 2043) on 05-05-2004, 09:00 PM:

The easiest and best way to move the print is Break it down onto 2 X 6000ft reels,in this case you can exchange 2x60k reels for their 2x6k reels with the movie, and it's simple any easy for you to inspect and mount the print.

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 05-06-2004, 03:29 PM:

If the theatre is right down the street why not just set up rollers on top of strategically placed cars and run it down to your booth via interlock? [Big Grin]

If no cars are available, just let it run along the ground. After all, film is practically indestructible Mylar now. [Eek!]

The above methods will not work if the theatres are more than a mile apart.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-06-2004, 03:42 PM:

"MYLAR" is a trademark of DuPont, who no longer makes motion picture film. Kodak's trade name is "ESTAR" base.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-06-2004, 03:54 PM:

I've always found that 'polyester' does the job...

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-06-2004, 03:58 PM:

Unfortunately, "polyester" conjures up visions of leisure suits like the ones Phil used to wear, and not just great films. [Wink]

Another major user of polyester is the packaging industry (in the USA, plastic containers with the recycling symbol "1" in the triangle, or "PETE").

http://www.ultrapac.com/PETE%20Recycling.htm

quote:
PETE recycling is a major industry
The recycling of PETE containers has become a major success story in the plastic industry. The use of PETE for containers has been nothing less than phenomenal, and the growth of recycling is equally impressive.
As impressive as the growth of recycling statistics are, the demand for recycled PETE and recycler capacity far exceed the supply of post-consumer containers.
About three-fourths of reclaimed PETE is used to make products such as fibers for carpet, fiberfill, apparel and geotextiles. Much of the remainder is extruded into sheet for thermoforming, stretch blow-molding or compounded for molding applications.

http://recycling.stanford.edu/recycling/caq_plastic.html

quote:
Q: What type of plastic containers can be recycled?
A: The Stanford Recycling Center only accepts #1 PETE and #2 HDPE plastic containers. Look for the number inside three chasing arrows on the bottom of the container and lids. Please remember to remove plastic lids and place them in the garbage. Rinse and flatten container before putting in the recycling bin. All of other plastics should be reused or thrown in the garbage.

Back to CAQ
Q: What does PETE and HDPE stand for?
A: These names are acronyms for the type of plastic or resin they are made of. PETE stands for Polyethylene Terephthalate. It is commonly used in plastic soda bottles. HDPE stands for High Density Polyethylene. It is commonly used to make milk and juice jugs.