Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Film taking up on top of itself.

This is topic Film taking up on top of itself. in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Jeremy Fuentes (Member # 2135) on 05-03-2004, 09:41 AM:

We have CFS Super Platters, and despite the negative remarks I have seen on other threads, we havent had too many serious problems, up until last night, my day off by the way. I was picking up my paycheck when the projectionist asked the other manager to go take a look at # 1(Envy). I went up there, and the film had taken up fine for the first 2 reels, but the rest of the movie was on top of those reels. It was in a cone shape until it hit the platter above it, and ran out of room, and started to tangle up and pile up on itself. This took about 3 1/2 hours to fix, and needless to say, the print will look like crap when it runs again today. Unfortunately, I had to cut it a couple times, to untangle the mess. [Mad]

What would cause this to happen? Do I need to adjust the timing? The movie did not stop running, and the projectionist happened to be on a break at the time.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 05-03-2004, 11:35 AM:

In my experiences, I have found that 'coning' on takeup is 99.99999% a print-related problem (it would happen more than once in a given auditorium, and moving the print solved the problem) and I have had it happen with CFS, Strong, and Norelco/Kinoton platters. The other .000001% would point to either a misthread or a misaligned final takeup roller.

As always, your mileage may vary... [Smile]

-Aaron

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-03-2004, 02:32 PM:

A print that has been stretched by excessive tension or "roped" or creased by riding up on a sprocket may not wind evenly. Also, optimum winding usually occurs if the relative humidity is kept near the recommended 50 to 60 percent range. Very dry conditions can cause excessive curl and "spoking", which can cause winding problems.

But if the print winds fine on other equipment, look to the equipment as the likely cause (e.g. excessive tension, misaligned roller).

Posted by Peter Mork (Member # 1336) on 05-03-2004, 02:44 PM:

I believe this can happen when one edge of the film either gets a crimp in it or the perforations along one edge get stretched or distorted in some way. This makes that edge effectively thicker than the other, even though you may not be able to tell by looking at it or feeling it, and the projection is unaffected.

Here's a solution: next time you run the film, take it up "upside down", with whichever edge you normally have facing up facing toward the platter. The "cone" won't form if the thicker edge is down.

Try it!

Posted by Adam Wilbert (Member # 1184) on 05-03-2004, 03:55 PM:

On the super platters I used to run, if the roller cluster that slides up and down on the tree before the take up platter (I forget the official name) isn't seated correctly, it would feed into that cone shape. Though I'm not sure why it would feed fine for 2 reels, then go so high...

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 05-03-2004, 06:21 PM:

i'd love to see pictures of this phenomenon. i can't see how it could ever go higher than a couple inches or so before the position of the last roller would retard its upward progress. and wouldn't the weight of 3-4 reels, as well as the pull of the winding tend to topple the cone?

the worst i've seen is one film which for a few days would wrap some layers about 1/3" high, then calm down. the raised layers were pretty evenly distributed through the print. don't know why it happened, but it was not a persistent problem.

carl

Posted by Lance C. McFetridge (Member # 95) on 05-03-2004, 06:44 PM:

Hmmm... And just how was it that the projectionist/threader didn't catch this before it got that high? And what the hell is a break when projectioning? [sleep]

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-03-2004, 06:54 PM:

If other prints run fine through the same film path it has to be an issue with that specific print.

My immediate response is 'slightly shrunk acetate!'. But of course, a print of a new mainstream film is going to be poly, so it ain't that. I once had a print of The Claim which refused to take up properly however much we coaxed it, and I later found out that other cinemas had had a similar problem with their prints of that film. Perhaps there was a problem with the antistatic layer on that batch of print stock?

Agreed with Peter that taking up base out and emulsion out on alternate passes can calm a staticky print down very effectively, though I'd love to know the physics of why.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-03-2004, 11:08 PM:

We had this happen on SPEOC platters last summer and the problem traveled with the print to what ever theatre it was moved to.
We also thought it was the platter problem but it turned out to be the film.
Mark

Posted by Jeremy Fuentes (Member # 2135) on 05-04-2004, 06:28 AM:

Thanks for the help guys. I was off yesterday, but I got a call from the manager saying that the platters for that particular show were all running too fast. I dont know if this has anything to do with the problem, but I will check them when I go in tonight.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-04-2004, 06:56 AM:

If the take-up plate is pulling too hard that could exacerbate any pre-existing static issue with the print, I'd guess.

Posted by Jeremy Fuentes (Member # 2135) on 05-04-2004, 07:01 AM:

Would the print issues take that long to happen? This was on the final show of the weekend. I would think the problem would happen on one of the first few shows.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-04-2004, 08:52 AM:

If the prints were running fine originally, and now won't wind correctly, perhaps they were damaged (stretched or creased) by excessive tension or another equipment problem?

"Static cling" usually doesn't cause "coning" or "dishing" type winding problems.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-04-2004, 10:42 AM:

OK, could a very little bit of excessive tension on the take up build up cumulatively, and then you notice the problem in the form of an uneven wind somwhere between pass 5 to 10 after it started?

John's point about static cling taken (and therefore, accepting that the print is kosher), I can't help thinking that a platter take-up motor torque and/or speed issue could be behind this. John's other suggestion - that the print suffered some sort of damage on one particular pass which has stopped it from taking up evening on any subsequent ones - didn't occur to me, though I'd have thought that any such damage which wasn't in any way visible on the screen in one form or another would be unusual.