Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 'Bobby Jones' shedding problem?

This is topic 'Bobby Jones' shedding problem? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006128

Posted by Derek Miner (Member # 2348) on 05-04-2004, 01:12 PM:

When I came in to work in the booth Sunday night, I was told that our print of "Bobby Jones: Stroke of Genius" was shedding and to make sure to clean between shows. When I actually got upstairs, there was an insane amount of white dust all over, from the SDDS reader all the way down. The most accumulation was around the Ultramittent (Christie projector). I thought this was from the two previous shows, but when I cleaned and ran the print again, it shed the same incredible amount. It's starting to get stuck to the print and there are plenty of dark flecks on the screen, particularly on the edge of the image. Unfortunately, we don't have film cleaners to try to reverse this.

Is anyone else running this film with similar problems? Any suggestions on how to minimize the damage and for cleaning up afterward would be greatly appreciated.

Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 05-04-2004, 01:25 PM:

I dont know anything about Christies, but I would bet that your intermittent pad is to close, or you have a badly worn sprocket. That is the usual cause of shedding.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-04-2004, 02:07 PM:

What is the magenta-colored edgeprint film batch identification printed along the edge of the film? [Confused]

Kodak VISION Color Print Film is very resistant to projector abrasion, compared to previous polyester stocks. Any chance it is not Kodak film?

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 05-04-2004, 02:28 PM:

We haven't noticed any shedding but we film guard our stuff pretty heavily when it first comes in.

I was inspecting our print the other day, and noticed no magenta edge code, but rather a series of yellowish numbers and letters saying something like "A G S" or something like that. Followed an inch or two later by a 110 and then a 1199 and then a single letter, which I forget what it was.

I can get the real numbers and letters and post them later, I'm doing this from memory at the moment so forgive me. But there was no sequencing that I noticed, the numbers and letters just repeated, and this was all on tail of the last reel. So, I'm not sure what kind of stock it is.

I just wanted to offer that to the discussion.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-04-2004, 02:38 PM:

quote: Mark J. Marshall
...no magenta edge code, but rather a series of yellowish numbers and letters saying something like "A G S" or something like that. Followed an inch or two later by a 110 and then a 1199 and then a single letter, which I forget what it was.

Okay. It's not Kodak stock.

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 05-04-2004, 03:45 PM:

It doesn't matter, Bobby Jones sucks and is doing no business. It will be gone from your booth next week.

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 05-04-2004, 05:50 PM:

when we had to stop using filmguard around the start of the year, i was afraid we'd start having shedding problems again. remarkably, we didn't, and i attributed that to recent film stock changes. now, 4 months later, we're having them. not as bad as derek's, perhaps, but crud in the gate and significant dust on one of the cat 700 rollers. this has happended with connie & carla, robot stories, and godsend. i'd have to check to see what the stocks are.

carl

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-04-2004, 08:08 PM:

Robot Stories was definitely on Eastman 2383. I've run it three times. Did you get my print (it has white tape with blue sharpie writing on heads and tails of all reels and probably still has my inspection report from last August in the can, or at least it did in January)? I never had any shedding problems with it (Century Cs and MP-30s)

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 05-04-2004, 08:37 PM:

Where do you run MP-30's?

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-04-2004, 08:40 PM:

We've used them at the Arisia sci-fi convention for the last two years (see the pic gallery). I'm not a fan, but they're more easily portable than pretty much anything else.

Posted by Tom Doyle (Member # 1474) on 05-04-2004, 10:29 PM:

Getting back on topic . . .

AGS indicates Agfa-Gevaert Safety film stock:

http://www.agfa.com/motionpictures/

Posted by Derek Miner (Member # 2348) on 05-05-2004, 12:25 AM:

This is after one show on Sunday:

I might be back in there tomorrow to watch a screening, and I can investigate the print further. Of course, it's entirely possible the film will ship out at the end of the week as suggested above. At least then I'll know for sure if it was a print issue or a problem with the projector.

Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 05-05-2004, 03:06 AM:

That's foul!! You'll need to hook up the shop-vac to clean that out!

BTW, have you got a humidity problem in your booth? I see a lot of rust on your machine. [Eek!]

danny

Posted by Lindsay Morris (Member # 1430) on 05-05-2004, 04:20 AM:

I have found that Film Guard almost totally stops the shedding and over the past season I had various prints that would shed massive amounts of stuff and start to fall down thru the optical sound lens assembly and cause snap & crackles in the sound.
As I do not have a Film Guard applicator unit I simply lightly spray the edges of the film thru the holes in the MUT spool and problem goes away..usually for around 3 sessions and then it starts again.
Have not been able to accurately identify what film stock was doing what but appeared to get most shedding from Fox Films but then some of those were printed here in OZ at Atlab. So who knows. [Confused]

Machine is Century CC and only occasional prints do it so that more or less rules out any machine adjustments or mal adjustment... or does it???.
But when it gets bad I can hear the noise in the sound quite clearly so I scuttle to the box and get the Film Guard going.
Lindsay

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 05-05-2004, 04:47 AM:

wow, our shedding is nothing like that. try some head & shoulders maybe.

scott, we got it from another theater. i'll check the cans tomorrow.

carl

Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 2038) on 05-05-2004, 11:56 AM:

Wow, I never had shedding like that.

The prints I get that shed seem to be non-Kodak, and the shedded fluff is dark in color, and certainly not enough to fill up the heads like that.

That almost looks like your intermitent sprocket is punching new holes, or at least making them bigger.

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 05-05-2004, 12:10 PM:

You call that shedding?!? BAH!

You should see our projector(s) after they run some of the used prints we get. Not dust, more like flakes. All different colored flakes. Blue, purple, red... After a week, we cleaned up enough debris to equal three fistfulls!

FilmGuard helps a LOT in these situations, but by the time we get these prints, they're so messed up that it only reduces the flaking, but doesn't eliminate it. Media pads come off with SHEETS of the stuff. Luckily, so far it's only been with shitty movies that we lose after a week. (maybe they're printing the shitty movies on shitty stock?)

And as for Dan Lyons's comment about the rust, that's actually not bad at all for a Florida booth. You should see our Cinemeccanicas that sat in an unairconditioned booth for 2 years when GCC closed. Seems like everything gets a "tan" one way or another in this state! [Razz]

=TMP=

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-05-2004, 02:30 PM:

That's not your average shedding print. Something's wrong with your projector, I say.

Check your gate, shoe, trap alignment, your sprockets, pad rollers and all of that stuff. Start at the payout platter and follow the film all the way through the system, back to the takeup platter.

Here's where it gets funky: That damage could have been caused by somebody else's fuck up. (Misthread, etc.) Now you have this "snow" all over the print. Every time you run the film the action of the projector will "fling" the dust everywhere. It will actually look like it's snowing in your booth! This problem will continue for as long as you have that print, even if you take the print to another projector. Running the print through a film cleaner and/or FilmGuard may help the problem but it will always be there to some degree.

After a while, if the damage wasn't severe AND if the projector is in good working order, the problem will quiet down. It may eventually seem to go away. If this happens to you then you can assume that the damage was a one time thing.

If the problem stays the same or gets worse, the damage wasn't a one time thing. If a different print played through the same projector starts showing the same symptoms then it's a problem in the projector.

Concentrate your search on the gate area. Common culprits are damaged or broken pressure bands. Also look at the shoe to see if it's installed properly and doesn't have any nicks in it. Closing pressure and/or alignment of the shoe with the trap are also good places to look.

Next, look at the intermittent and the intermittent pad shoe. Look for the same kinds of things: Broken, damaged, missing or misaligned parts.

One more thing you can do is to take a look at the film under bright light. With film that is damaged that badly you will probably be able to see the damage on the film. Where is the damage?

Because the "snow" in your projector isn't colored but is almost snow white I'm going to guess it's on the base side. (Just a guess.)

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-05-2004, 04:10 PM:

Was the projector causing such severe shedding on other prints, just before you played the problem "Bobby Jones" print?

Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 05-05-2004, 04:38 PM:

Obviously it is the film stock.

I remember when Schindler's List opened - there was a similar problem with all the theatres that were running it.

Thank God for Film-Guard!

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 05-05-2004, 07:02 PM:

Nothing abnormal about our Bobby Jones print. When I used to work with Christies, the most common source of shedding was the sprockets. I would check out how close the pad roller is to the sprocket teeth. On the Centuries I run now, this is the most common reason why a print would shed. I don't remember if the gate rails can be aligned on the Christies, but if one rail is slightly offset at the top or bottom I've seen shedding occur there too in our SA's.

Posted by Bruk Mogos (Member # 2043) on 05-05-2004, 08:31 PM:

Derek,the problem you are having is coming from dirty film gate and tension bands&film trap, you need to clean this using WD40 and thute brush,this will remove all the residue and clean any dried film wax,then use the regular cleaner to lube every thing. as most of the print theye are coated with wax,the bad residue on the film trap is scraching the wax off the print and that's why you see all that snow on your projector.So one again is not the print.Let me know if this works.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 05-05-2004, 08:56 PM:

quote: Dennis Benjamin
I remember when Schindler's List opened - there was a similar problem with all the theatres that were running it.

I know the Black and White prints had that problem, but I seem to remember there were color stock prints around too... did they have the same problem? I know we also had that problem with "Ed Wood" - also B&W. That's why I always thought that black and white stock is more prone to shedding problems. Maybe I'm wrong on that.

Edit: Fixed stupid broken sentence mistake.

[ 05-05-2004, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: Mark J. Marshall ]

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-05-2004, 09:06 PM:

Back when "Schindler's List" and "Ed Wood" were released, the Kodak B&W print stock used definitely needed to be lubricated after processing, per SMPTE Recommended Practice RP151 and Kodak's H-24.02 processing specifications. I recall that the early prints of "Schindler's List" were not lubricated by the lab, but later B&W silver image prints did receive "TomaKote" treatment.

Kodak has since added more lubricant to the film itself (can't add too much, or the big rolls of raw stock become too loose to handle without dishing), but post process lubrication will always provide additional protection against projector abrasion, and is still recommended for all prints by SMPTE RP151.

Bruk: Derek's photo certainly looks like polyester debris from the base side of the film. I've seen it before.

Kodak invested over $200 million to build a new base making machine for VISION Color Print Film to add a special proprietary anti-static scratch-resistant coating to reduce projector abrasion and "static cling":

http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/newsletters/inCamera/fall98/print.shtml

quote:
Both new print films incorporate major advances in the science of emulsion design and manufacturing technologies. They are both coated on a rugged, new, more durable polyester base material manufactured by Kodak in a state-of-the-art factory...

...prints stay cleaner, resist scratches better and are more durable. This will enhance the movie-going experience...

...The new process-surviving antistat technology will greatly reduce the propensity for dirt attraction in theatrical projection."

Posted by Derek Miner (Member # 2348) on 05-05-2004, 09:55 PM:

I really appeciate everyone's comments. Of course, nobody wants things to go wrong in the booth, but at least this gives me an opportunity to learn. I was just told to clean up after each show. It didn't seem to me that anyone considered faulty hardware. I'll be sure to inspect the gate, pad rollers and sprockets next time I'm up there.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-05-2004, 11:13 PM:

Bruk;

You're joking, right?!

If I caught somebody doing that to my projectors I'd cross-wire his testicles through the ignitor circuit and repeatedly press the manual strike button to the beat of the song, "Were You Born An Asshole?"

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 05-06-2004, 03:45 AM:

FWIW, I also work in a Chrisite booth, and I noticed that Bobby Jones is sheding a lot as well. Not to the extent of your picture, but enough to get my attention.

[ 05-06-2004, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Mike Olpin ]

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 05-06-2004, 05:05 AM:

scott, godsend's on 2383 as well. we have print #1 of robot stories. no note in the can.

my feeling is that the weather (increased temp/humidity) is probably responsible for the reappearance of dirt in our gates. nothing like the severity of derek's case, though.

carl

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 05-06-2004, 06:14 AM:

I ran Schlindler's List just once, on a Kinoton FP-20 with a cinemeccanica tower. I'm almost certain that the black and white sections were on Agfa triacetate stock. I know for certain that the trailer was. I didn't notice what stock the colour sections were on. Had no problems running it. I don't think I've ever run a black and white polyester print.

Are Agfa still making motion picture stocks? I was told that they had pulled out of this market, but I don't know if this is correct.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 05-06-2004, 07:28 AM:

Agfa is still very much into print stock and soundtrack recording film.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-06-2004, 09:34 AM:

AFAIK, color print film and sound negative film are about the only motion picture films they still sell today.

Kodak sells the most complete complete system of motion picture films, ranging from color and B&W camera films, to color and B&W print films, and everything in-between:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/index.jhtml

Kodak also stocks all current formats, ranging from Super-8 to 65mm and 70mm.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 05-06-2004, 10:08 AM:

FWIW, No shedding on our B&W Kill Bill reel 1... and I've been looking. Of course, we Film Guard the hell out of everything. [Wink]

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-06-2004, 10:28 AM:

Kodak has made significant improvements to the B&W print film, and the recommended post-process lubrication always helps too.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 05-06-2004, 03:01 PM:

I can tell! Thanks! [thumbsup]