Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Which would you buy DTS-6D or XD10

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Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 05-05-2004, 05:36 PM:

Opinions appreciated. And please explain why?
Reason I'm curious, there really isn't much money difference between the two?

I just wonder if XD10 is over kill now that EX seems to be a non-issue, let alone all that XD10 offers.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 05-05-2004, 05:47 PM:

If you ever want to do video screen ads this unit can handle that chore with an optional card.....

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-05-2004, 06:48 PM:

The XD-10 is newer and thus likely to be supported for a longer period of time than the 6D. Also, the ability to play soundtracks off the hard disk should make it more reliable.

I don't know what the price difference is, but if it's minimal, then I'd go with the XD-10. If it's a big difference, I'd go with the 6D, assuming that I didn't need any of the extra features than the XD-10 offers.

Actually, I'd buy SRD instead, since I mostly deal with prints which are SRD only. Your mileage may vary.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-05-2004, 07:07 PM:

Because you won't be running in digital 100% of the time the first thing you need is a good analog processor with REAL SR decoding or emulation that is as good as the real thing, plus a real reverse scan reader, not a Jokes Light. This means either Dolby or Panastereo for processors there is nothing else that fits the catagory of an analog processor in my book. Anything else is vastly inferior.

Go with the XD-10 for sure. You would be cheating yourself big time if you didn't. The 24 bit 96khz D to A convertors are miles ahead of the rest of DTS's stuff and miles ahead of any other cinema type digital sound processor. It sounds fantastic!! There are still a couple of bugs in the thing but that won't prevent any normal day to day operations, and software upgrades included on disks will fix anything quite easily, you won't even know when it happens.

The main thing to remember about the XD-10 is not to shut it off while its booting up. If you do this you can corrupt the O.S. data on the Hard drive. They are working on a couple of small fixes for it... the other is a switching problem when its used with an Ultra Stereo JS processors....but again no big deal especially since you'd be using something that has real, or equivelent SR!! There are qwuite a few XD-10's out here in this area and very few problems overall.

Another choice some face is between the 6D and the 6... and my choice hands down is the 6 because of its Jensen balanced output transformers. DTS is currently working up a total upgrade for the 6 as they would prefer to continue support of it than to drop support.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 05-05-2004, 10:50 PM:

I should of mentioned, I will be mating these with new CP45s plus Component Engineering Reverse readers, Ashley amps, JBL 4675 screen spkrs, and 4645 subs.

I read thru DTS's DVD authoring tech bulletin, but I'm not up on DVD burners. Is this something that can be done on a home computer and be compatible with the XD10?

Good to know the problems are minor. I'm uncertain of Hard drives in the booth. [Big Grin]

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-05-2004, 11:03 PM:

We have an XD10 and it's been trouble free. We occasionally run two different movies and it's very nice not having to remember to switch disks. Also with our old unit, there was always a very short dropout when it would move from disk A to disk B....tried a few steps with Karen H. to fix that, but nothing ever worked. That problem doesn't exist with the XD, obviously.

If there's not much money difference, go with the XD for sure. So what if it has extra capabilities you'll never use....your home computer probably does, too.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-05-2004, 11:44 PM:

"I will be mating these with new CP45s "
Hummm... er well, I won't got there right now. You could do ALOT better by going with the Panastereo and the XD-10. In fact your sound system would go from being mediocre to being absolute first rate and among the best equipment available. They are available as a pair on a special buy through Smart Devices. Perhaps even cheaper than buying the Doboly CP-45 and XD-10 seperately... but even if the pair is a bit more expensive now i the long run you will be way ahead of the game. Now Brad, even I know you didn't pick the CP-45... what dealer is doing this to you??? Ok, I'll start a new thread on this subject....

The rest of your choices are very good though!!!!

Mark

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 05-06-2004, 01:15 AM:

The 6D is almost problem free. No major issues here in Cyprus. Only we had to change some drives in some theaters. I never heard nor operated the XD10 but I believe that someone should buy the new one. Especially in multiplexes. Imagine interlocking 3 screens with only 1 DTS disc set for the movie!! With the XD you simply download it on the HD and the playback from there.
D

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 05-06-2004, 11:25 AM:

Economics comes into play, the Panastereo+XD10 package is $5,000 more per screen than a CP45+Xd10.
I simply cannot justify an extra $10,000 to upgrade two screens in my small town. One room is 1560sq ft, the other 1240sqft. Yeah, I know, some people have better sound systems in their home. But with cyan looming, I'm trying to upgrade the best I can at this point.

And here I thought I was doing good, originally was going to use the new Mod 8. But it's been delayed 3 months or longer. (ducking for cover) [Smile]

I thought real SR was the goal. How much more real can I get? [Confused]

I do appreciate the opinions. Thanks

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-06-2004, 01:58 PM:

How about looking at used CP65s? These should be comparable to or cheaper than new CP45s.
I have to admit, though, that I've only seen two CP45 installations. One sounded very good and the other sounded decent, but not great (this was probably more an acoustical issue, anyway). The build quality was cheesy, though.

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 05-06-2004, 03:18 PM:

I had looked for 65's, but didn't have any luck finding any.
Anyone know of some?
Thanks.

Posted by Jonathan M. Crist (Member # 413) on 05-06-2004, 03:38 PM:

You could also get an upgraded CP-55 which with the addition of the 441 card and some backplane work becomes a CP-65.

IMHO the original CP-55's with the external add-on SR unit containing true SR 380 cards are the nicest sounding units that Dolby has ever produced.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-06-2004, 07:32 PM:

While Jons idea is good it still leaves you SRless and shortchanged. And if the used 55's you aquire are SRless it is VERY expensive to upgrade a with either a Dolby upgrade card, or the Panastereo outboard unit to have SR, the SRA-5's are practically non-existant. Few people ever actually upgrade a 55 to SR. And at that point the Pansstereo might actually be less expensive, and anyway it would koll a full blown 55 or 65 away. A pair of used CP-65's would be the better used route to go to save money if a pair can be found.

Between the CP-45 or the Mod 8 I suppose I would pick the Dolby, but its SR decoding leaves something to be desired as do other major parts of it, but its SR would be better than the Mod's emulation. The 45's construction quality is very poor for a Dolby product, I've never sold one since they appeared nor would I. I do service a few of them in Southern Utah though they were not sold by us.....

Personally I'd shop around for the very best price on this stuff to help stretch your budget even further.... unless the 45's are used I might believe $5000.00 more for both screens but not per screen!! Two CSP-1200's sell for around that much! 10K more is rediclous as I know what both these combinations sell for new.

Don't know your dealer but I do know that some that just sit around waiting for the phone to ring to make 40 point sales [Eek!]

. Quoting prices is very easy.... working for your customer so he has the best there is at the best price takes more effort than many dealers could care less about expending.

Perhaps you could do better on the overall package price and switch back to the Panastereo one way or another, 10K more is simply a joke!. Your town is not really that small, I've been there, and you now face a chance to be better than anyone else near you or that might come into play near you in the future......

Mark

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 05-06-2004, 09:14 PM:

Mark is on target on the price spread. the price spread you quoted sound more like list pricing which would make most dealers dance a jig to get the sale [Wink]

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 05-06-2004, 11:39 PM:

Well I was basing the price for the Pana/DTS deal from the Panastereo web site. I understood it to mean it had to be purchased direct from Smart. Also this is what they led me to believe in an email I received back from them.

I'll check again. A different route this time.

What's the opinion on the Ultra Stereo JS280S with SR?

Thanks.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-07-2004, 09:33 AM:

The USL SR emulator is a step down from the Doboly 222SRA card and to me does not qualify as good quality SR, ot doesn't sound right to me but is better than the Smart emulator. The build quality of USL analog products is good and they are fairly trouble free. At least the boards are plug in like a CP-55 but by the time you get their SR and 1/3 octave eq or buy the JSX-1000A THX version you're almost up to the price of the CSP-1200.

My beef with USL is that they are wasting too much time attempting to develop digitally based products that no one wants or needs. Development cost is higher than analog, takes longer for smaller companies to achieve, and software bugs can cause MAJOR headaches and the need for software upgrades and such. Software development is also very expensive and good software designers are very hard to come by. Recovering money back invested in digital and software development can take a long time! Personally, Its hard to believe they never spent the time to re-design the older processor and improve upon it overall as other companies have done. That stuff is what made USL in the first place. Another donw side is that they are a West Coast company and that automatically drives up the cost of whatever it may be.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-07-2004, 11:27 AM:

Brad,

I just ran the numbers as if you were my customer...the street price for a CP-45 w/DTS XD-10 is about $200 more than the SMART CSP1200/XD-10 combo deal.

Remember, the CP-45 does not have real SR...it is a so-so emulator that uses Dolby-S, not SR that does okay with some soundtracks. The CP-45 does not have 1/3-octave EQ on the stage channels (it has some goofy 2/3-octave EQ in the mid-band areas and adjustable HF and LF controls. The CP-45 only has Bass, Mid, and Treble controls for the surrounds.

Conversely, the CSP1200 has 1/3-octave EQ on all stage channels and Full-Octave EQ plus Bass and Treble for the Surrounds.

So, in a sense, the CSP1200/XD-10 is a bargain at a higher price yet it is less expensive.

Steve

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-07-2004, 12:36 PM:

I find the USL SR emulator better than te Cat 222SR/A
but this is a red letter day at Filmtech I agree with both Mark and Steve the Pana/DTS combo is the best bang or the buck

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 05-08-2004, 12:40 AM:

Thanks everyone, I'm awaiting the price quote from my dealer. He was out of town today.

FYI:Another dealer I contacted today trashed the Panastereo unit. Thought the USL was a much better unit. Called the Panastereo I Quote "the sound quality that I have heard from these units is substandard." He didn't bother to give me a price.
Don't shoot the messenger [Big Grin]

I thought you all would enjoy the comment.
[Smile]

To be honest, my head is swimming. [Eek!]

Someone educate me please, what is the advantages of 1/3 octave eq? Finer tuning of EQ?

Thanks everyone. All the info is much appreciated.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-08-2004, 07:55 AM:

"what is the advantages of 1/3 octave eq? Finer tuning of EQ?"
_________________________________________________________________

Precisley(pun intended!), and with all the adjustment available you can take care of most any problem that may arise on the response curve more effectively. Of course the system should be properly designed and the room properly treated to alleviate as many anomolies beforehand as possible.

The person at that dealer that trashed the Panastereo unit is obviously a very biased person, or inexperienced with that certain product..... its certainly is his loss! Keep in mind that many dealers get extra perks from cetain vendors, might be distributers for some others, or are just not a dealer for certain products and hence you get that sort of biased response.

It is unfortunate there are those dealers out there that fail to recognize the best equipment and steer you in the right direction to help you achieve the best possible results... but then I guess uncovering this sort of thing is part of what this forum is all about....

Hopefully you will be sure to stear clear from this dealer any other theatre owner friends and aquaintainces that you may know in your area and send them to a more honest and knowledgable dealer.

Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-08-2004, 09:31 AM:

For a dealer to trash a product in that fashion is uncalled for and he should be "outed" and not hide behind anonimity
Probably this dealer has never worked with the product or didn't have a clue as to how to set it up

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 05-08-2004, 10:00 AM:

Indeed...name the dealer and lets find out what (if any) contact he's had with the product he is dissing.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-08-2004, 12:49 PM:

It's pretty sad that commercial theaters run into the same kind of monkey business you see at normal consumer electronics stores when it comes to buying new hardware.

I already know well enough that you should have a pretty good, absolute idea of what you want to buy and insist on it when it comes to consumer electronics. Sales droids are only going to try pushing what their management says to push instead of giving you what you need, even to the point of lying and trashing products which are actually good.

That kind of thing certainly should not be happening in professional cinema electronics sales. Equipping a theater booth is nowhere near as simple as wiring in some home gear. With all the positive comments I've heard about the Panastereo unit, I'm surprised a sales guy actually has the nerve to trash it as a means of pushing a lesser cinema processor.