Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: moving aperture plate

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Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 05-17-2004, 05:39 PM:

Hi everyone

I need your opinion. I have several Victoria 5 that doesn't costantly change the aperture plate since the mechanism is too hard and the motor cannot move the plate.
First I discovered that projectionists put OIL in the mechanism. The heat of the lamp made a mess. I cleaned everything, the locking mechanism (the one with the spring) is now working and free.
However I have several machine where the problem is not solved. I found that the problem is the locking mechanism, where the little pin enter the "V" on the plate's holder. Seems that this pin makes too strenght when the motor tries to move the plate.

If I remove the spring the plates has no problems. The excessive resistance made by the "pin" is confirmed moving the plate by hand too.

I don't know if the problem is clear. Never happened to me, I'm becoming crazy trying solving this issue.

The entire mechanism is completely free and clean. I didn't put any kind of oil in the mechanism (it always worked to me in this way!) Do you have any suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

Bye
A

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 05-17-2004, 06:38 PM:

Something may be worn excessively such as a hole that may no longer be concentric. That can cause some binding. Take a look for that type of wear, and take a look for something being sprung.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 05-17-2004, 06:42 PM:

Yes, I thought too... I have to check better but doesn't seem to me. Seems strange to me that I had a V5 for 5 years with no problem, here the aperture plates is a big issue... What caused this damned problem????

Thank

Bye
A

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 05-17-2004, 08:06 PM:

You mean that when the spring (10-522) is removed, it works OK?

Could there be any damage to the V pin? Could it be bent?

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 05-18-2004, 06:52 AM:

Thanks John for the image!

Yes. The mechanism has no problem changing plate with no spring.

I've fully inspected the mechanism, I can see just a bit of wear on the plate's holder or on the pin.
So today I tried using a bit (just a bit) of abrasiv paper using a squared piece of wood to enter the "V" shaped hole on the aperture plate's holder. Seems to work now, there is no more that resistance when the pin (9V-512) try to exit from the V on the aperture plate's holder (8V-513). I kept this solution for last because I do not like to use abrasive paper on these mechanism but this is my last chance...

I'll let you know my final results let's see if today I can start some show with the right plate!! [Smile]

(We check all len's change, don't worry!!)

Thank

A

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 05-18-2004, 08:57 AM:

Besides cleaning up the aperture track you should also check the motor linkage and on some motor drives there is a capacitor in the circuit. The gearbox to the motor may also have problems due to operator abuse. The motor and gearbox is made to come apart for service.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 05-18-2004, 05:05 PM:

Richard

I didnt' know. I know the importance of that capacitor (and the easy of damaging it opening and closing the carter) but I didn't know that the gearbox could be serviced.

Do you have any suggestion of what should be checked inside? Otherwise I will thinkering with it... [Wink]

What would you consider as "operator abuse"?

Bye!
A

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 05-18-2004, 05:14 PM:

The gear box mates to the drive motor via a cam lock fitting...once apart you can feel if there is any rough spots in the gear box. The box sometimes receives abnormal wear if pulled too agressively when moving the aperture manually. the little red capacitor ( part # 3607105 ), if installed for your type of motor, help boost kick the motor.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 05-19-2004, 07:41 PM:

thank you richard!

bye
A

Posted by Phil Blake (Member # 2012) on 06-02-2004, 11:16 AM:

I am suffering the same problems , we have 3 vic 5's all brand new and they all have sticky aperture plates , they either move partially or not at all when lens rotates. I have dismantled the gate , plate mechanism all seems to be like new yet the contantly stick .I would imagine the motor and gear box on all 3 should be fine being new so there must be an issue with the movement somewhere that causes the aperture to jam up.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 06-02-2004, 06:38 PM:

Hi Phil

I'm still fighting with this issue. In one of my previous post I wrote that I was going to use abrasive paper on the "V" on the plate's holder because I noted that the cause of the problem is the pin that has some kind of resistance exiting that "V".
Strange, the plates starts working properly after the "cure" but has the same problem after few tests.

Actually perhaps I found a solution. My fools projectionists put some kind of spray oil (like WD40...) on the plate's holder. This oil became sticky and like stone with the hot of the lamp. I cleaned all the mechanisms but I found that a bit of this cooked oil "survived" where the 9V512 (see the photo above) is screwed, I don't know if I'm clear.

I tried to put a bit of High temperature grease, the same that is used into the shutter gear box (just a bit) and my test machine seems to have the problem solved. But I cannot say that this is the solution I said too many times!

Try to disassemble the 9V512 and to clean with some type of product everything. I use white petroleum (don't know if you call it this way)

Since you machine are brand new, did you put some kind of lubricant on the plate's movements? In my experience there should be put nothing on this part of machine.

And, do you use all three aperture plates or just the more external ones? If you use the more internal one, check on the belt side that the plate's mechanism is not touching the roller that prevent the belt to drive out from the shutter gear. If the roller is too low it can touch the plate's mechanism and locking it.

Bye
A

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 07-04-2004, 10:40 AM:

I recently discovered that the behaviour of many V5 to not change plate at lens' change is not limited to the site I was working for. This time the projectors are almost new (1,5 year) and the mainteinance were always well made.
I discovered few machine that sometimes has difficult changing plates. Same problem, the motor does not have the necessary strenght to have the pin exiting from the "V" on the plate. A great resistance can be feel with hand too.

Now I wonder: Cinemeccanica sells projectors all over the world. Is is possibile that this kind of problem is limited to my projectors? [Smile]

Perhaps I make something wrong. Do you use any type of lubricant on the plates? Since the temperature there is very high I always thought that less is better. Perhaps I'm wrong. The lubricant way I wrote before seems to work on the first site but not completely. I've been told that in this case, where plates does not want to change by itself, Cinemeccanica sells a different type of spring, a lighter one.

Has someone suggestions or opinions for me?

Bye
A

Posted by Thomas Jonsson (Member # 1902) on 07-04-2004, 02:58 PM:

Hi Antonio

I´ve had this problem as well. In my case, this was the
problem: the aperture plate with the "V´s" is atached to the moving mechanism with a tiny pin at your end (opposite the
"motor" side). The hole is sometimes just a little to small
to get the plate down all the way. This makes the aperture plate too thick and it won´t move. I made the hole a slightly bigger
with a small drill and that did it.

Thomas

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 07-04-2004, 03:58 PM:

Thomas's post was another "fix" we did on the V-5 plates to allow the plate to seat more square to the holder..that with the linkage slop, capacitor on the motor, motor gear box, et cetera......

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 07-05-2004, 07:00 AM:

Thomas

Yes, I understand, I had few of them and I fixed them. In some cases the plate was warped...

But this is not my problem.

Richard, I already have the cap on the motor, what do you mean with "linkage slop"?

Just to explain better my problem when a plate is locked, you sometimes cannot move by hand unless you raise the 9V-512 (see the photo above). After that the plate is completely free to move. If I cannot move it by hand I understand why the motor cannot do the same...

Do you use some kind of lubricant in this area?

Thanks for your help

Bye
A

Posted by Phil Blake (Member # 2012) on 07-31-2004, 08:11 AM:

I have discovered with our Vic 5's the aperture plates when they warm up buckle slightly which causes them to jam amd not change ratio.

I think I have fixed this by 1. removing the spring from the V pin and 2. I placed a very small piece of shim brass behing the aperture mounting blocks , this giving the slide move clearance when hot. so far......... no failed changes !

Posted by Thomas Jonsson (Member # 1902) on 08-06-2004, 01:04 PM:

I´ve just discovered another reason the aperture plate
won´t move, or get stuck with the wrong format - or even
half-way between formats. To the right of the toothed
roller on the shutter gear box is a roller to keep the
belt from "jumping off". This one is VERY close to the arm
that makes the aperture plate slide. Take a look if it is
actually touching the arm, and prevents it from moving. It
did in one of my machines.

Extreme precision or a construction mistake?

Thomas

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 08-06-2004, 08:11 PM:

Thomas

I was aware of that roller. "Extreme precision"? Uhm... I believe it's not a term that can be applied to Cinemeccanicas!

Phil
I'm sure that without the spring the mechanism won't fail. But what about its precision? It is not "extremely precise" right now ith the springs... [Smile]

Bye
A

Posted by Thomas Jonsson (Member # 1902) on 08-07-2004, 03:48 PM:

Well, Antonio
There was a line in "Our man Flint" starring
James Coburn. Sitting in his private jet plane,
Coburn´s pilote says: -Oh, I see you´ve emptied
the ash-tray? and Coburn replies: - No, I bought
a new airplane instead.

Perhaps that´s what we should do. Stop fiddling
with the aperture plate and buy a new machine?

Thomas

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 08-07-2004, 07:53 PM:

No, of course.

But Cinemeccanica sells Victoria 5 all around the world. Seems strange to me that are so few that are asking for aperture plates... I'm still search a definitive solution!

Bye
A

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-08-2004, 09:37 AM:

Cinemecanica projectors are a workhorse machine the are installed all around the world and they day in day out run with few and infrequent problems

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-08-2004, 12:33 PM:

That reminds me, I read somewhere the best way to clean an oven is to move to a new appartment every year.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 08-08-2004, 04:59 PM:

I agree with Gordon..... they are a very reliable machine that work fine.... the design is simple and reliable.

The locating spring is required for the plate to locate correctly and should be left in place.

You can check a couple of other things....

Has the profile of the app plate been distored in some way so that it is slightly fatter than it should be. Try laying the plate on a flat surface and using a smooth file check there are no high spots....

The other thing to check is the running plate itself. If you have the edge pushers rather than the top rollers.... check that the spring cover on the back has not been distorted and is catching the plate as it tries to move. If you have an older plate without the edge pushers try using that.

I've had both of these problems in the past.

You should also check the the stop adjustments on the actuating arm are correctly set so that the plate stops in the correct position. That way the locating spring does not have to try and pull the plate into its correct position. It is after all only intended to hold the plate in position, nothing else.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 08-08-2004, 08:14 PM:

Ken, Gordon,

I agree with both of you, I've nothing to say on Cinemeccanicas. I worked with 48 different Cinemeccanicas (V5 and V8) and I can say that I would found just a bit more precision in their mechanism.

The aperture plate is one of them. Since no oil can be put for the high temperature reached, the mechanism has to be improved, IMHO.

Ken,
I understand both of your suggestions. But as Thomas said the problem is in the spring that, Ken is right, has just the job to lock the plate in the correct position but NOT to foce it. First the micro behind has to be adjusted perfectly.

However, the pin has sometimes some difficults moving out of the "V" shaped hole.

Bye
A

Posted by Thomas Jonsson (Member # 1902) on 08-09-2004, 08:45 AM:

My James Coburn-post was just a joke. Don´t
take it seriously - but it COULD solve Antonio´s
problem.

I´ve worked with Victoria 5´s for many years.
They work OK most of the time and it´s easy to fix
most problems yourself. I´ll give them that.

But as Antonio said himself, the precision could be
a little better here and there. Even though I can´t
really complain about the picture- and sound quality
from my two machines, I can´t rid myself from the
feeling of a "toy-machine".

A simple thing like making an aperture plate move
into 3 positions, shouldn´t be a problem. If it doesn´t
work as it should, then the construction isn´t very good.
Cinemeccanica should rush out to help Antonio with his
problems, and then buy him a large dinner.

By the way, Antonio, as you work with both V5 and V8, do
you think the image quality (focus and steadiness) are
better with the V5 with curved gate than the V8? Or is
the V8 still the better of them?

Thomas

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 08-09-2004, 01:53 PM:

Thomas

I'm not sure to have fully understood you post about the joke...

About V8-V5, I work everyday with V5 projs but I worked just few months with just one V8 installed in a particular screen in Italy. I didn't notice big differences in image quality. The main thing I noted is that the V8 gate is much more gentle with prints.

About the plates: the mechanism works but, IMHO, could work better!! It is too much susceptible to dirty and other factor.

Bye
A

Posted by Thomas Jonsson (Member # 1902) on 08-09-2004, 03:20 PM:

Antonio,
The point of James Coburns line was, he didn´t bother
to empty the ash-tray - he bought a new air plane.
"Translated" to your problem, don´t bother to fix the
aperture plate - get a new projector.

And please notice I didn´t say a new brand of machine,
just a new machine.

Mr Gordon McLeod said "Cinemeccanica projectors are a work
horse machine that are installed all around the world and
run day in and day out with few and infrequent problems".
Meaning, I guess, they are very good machines. When browsing
some older posts I happened to find "Cinemeccanica"(05-28-2000),
mr McLeod saying "The Vic 5 is a piece of crap".

No offense, Mr McLeod, but those are two very different
statements. What made you change your mind?

Thomas

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 08-09-2004, 04:56 PM:

Thomas

Ok, very clear, I just did not remember correcly your previous post, I should had read it again before reply! [Smile]

I have the same opinion on Cinemeccanicas since many year. As you said, a "big toy", a very well made big toy I have to say. In my 6 year of experience (not so much!) I worked with the changeover Auto-Rewind system 2 x V5 with "Vector 2000" automation, with "Vector 1000" multiplex automation, V5 and V8, many releases. I have projector failure only twice, once for a lightning fallen on my theater!!

But I personally do not judge a projector for how many times fail in a year. Cinemeccanicas needs many and many simple improvements. Without these improvements you have to make a continuous manteinance on the parts that are poorly designed. If you fail to make this kind of mainteinance the projector will continue to make the shows, but the quality of the presentation fall in the hell.

This is my personal opinion!

Bye
A

Posted by Thomas Jonsson (Member # 1902) on 08-10-2004, 04:34 AM:

Hi Antonio,
As I see it, maintaining the projector daily to make it
run properly, is my businness. But using all the tricks
in the book to make it run because of poor construction
should not be my businness. Would you accept that if you
buy a new car? I don´t think so.

For example, the manual douser in the lamphouse bends so
much from the heat, it gets stuck with the heat filter.
That´s crap. The douser in the machine now and then bends
from the heat and gets stuck. Even when it works "all right"
I have to have a bolt taped to the douser lever to make it
fall down. That´s crap. And the trouble with your aperture
plate is crap. I recently changed the shutter gear box and
it sounds like it hasn´t seen oil for years. "It sounds like
that" I was told. That´s crap.

But besides all that, it´s a reasonably good machine.
There simply is no perfect machine out there. They could
be made a lot better, but I guess no one would be willing
to pay the price?

Thomas

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-10-2004, 11:23 AM:

"Hi Antonio,

For example, the manual douser in the lamphouse bends so
much from the heat, it gets stuck with the heat filter.
That´s crap. "'
funny that is a problem on many lamphouses out there and some manufacturers don't include one standard anyway

"The douser in the machine now and then bends
from the heat and gets stuck."

That happens on lots of machines includeing the kinoton range

"Even when it works "all right"
I have to have a bolt taped to the douser lever to make it
fall down. That´s crap."

Again that is not an unique problem to cineemcanica

"And the trouble with your aperture
plate is crap."
I have had that problem with jamming plates on many simplexs and Kelmar conversions

" I recently changed the shutter gear box and
it sounds like it hasn´t seen oil for years. "It sounds like
that" I was told. That´s crap."

The newer steel geared gear box is noisier than the old ones

"But besides all that, it´s a reasonably good machine.
There simply is no perfect machine out there. They could
be made a lot better, but I guess no one would be willing
to pay the price?
Thomas "

It also has a good track record as well

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 08-10-2004, 02:42 PM:

I agree with both, I do not have experience with other machine so I cannot have an opinion. What I can say is that Cinemeccanica (please, the spelling!!) could make much better machine just spending few cents and the image of Cinemeccanica itself would be much better.

I liked the "car" comparison... And I agree that few people would not pay the money for these little improvements...

Bye
A

Posted by Thomas Jonsson (Member # 1902) on 08-11-2004, 09:42 AM:

Hi Antonio and Gordon
Let me put it this way: I don´t care what kind
of machine it is - Cinemeccanica, Kinoton, Strong
or whatever - projectors have been made for over
100 years, by now they should know their business.
Period!

I have a feeling the machines of today are not
nearly as well made as the older ones. Show me a
carbon arc lamphouse where the douser bends from
the heat. I´ve worked with Ernemann VIIIB and IX,
Bauer U3, Favorit 70 and DP 70, and I´ve never
experienced any trouble at all with the change-over
dousers. Never.

The least one could expect from the manufacturers,
is that after 100 years they should be aware of the
heat, and build machines that can handle it. Some
of them are even braging how long they´ve been around.
It doesn´t always show.

People are paying good money to see a show, and I
think these sorts of problems should NEVER be a reason
to ruin a show.

Thomas