This is topic Putting together films with clear tape? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Todd Cornwall (Member # 2205) on 05-22-2004, 03:58 PM:
 
I agree that its best for the presentation, however, how about the poor schmuck who has to tear it down? I believe this task is going to fall upon me, however, I have only torn down films that were spliced using white, yellow, or striped tape. Any tips for finding the splice mark? Also, what if the film had broken and was repaied with clear tape? Seems like more of a hassle for very little presentation benefit.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-22-2004, 04:22 PM:
 
I use the eprad edge marker kit that puts a thin fine white or silver line on the edge of the film to mark the splice
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-22-2004, 05:02 PM:
 
The trick is that you don't _look_ for the splice--you _feel_ for it.

Brad's method is to mark the approximate amount of film on each shipping reel using a piece of tape. I've never seen the need for this, but it might be useful to others.

As for distinguishing between reel-change splices and mid-reel repair splices, you can look for the cue marks in the upper-right of the frame about 20-24 frames from the end of the reel. If they are there, then the nearest splice is a reel-change splice. If not, then it probably isn't (unless you have a foreign film from one of the few labs that doesn't print cue marks).

I am _not_ a fan of edge-mark tape, shoe polish, paint pens, etc. used to mark the edge of the film. This usually destroys any SDDS soundtrack that might be on the print and also risks getting the stuff into the image or optical track area. It also doesn't really make it any easier to break down a print.

Believe me--getting rid of the opaque tape will improve your presentation dramatically.
 

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Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 05-22-2004, 05:33 PM:
 
Marking the shipping reels is a very effective method. Do make sure to mark a piece of tape and not the reel itself, for obvious reasons. If you're dependent on someone else to build up the print who may balk at doing this, a piece of colored tape aligned with the outside of the roll will work too.

Since I run 6000' reel-to-reel I often mark reel changes on the 6000' reels instead, along with locations of lab splices, film damage, the credits, and anything else that might require attention during the show.

If I'm building up a very splicey print I sometimes mark the reel change splices with a Sharpie on the frameline-- not to see the splice while breaking down but to verify that it is in fact the reel change splice.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-22-2004, 05:42 PM:
 
Todd, if my guys can find a trimmed post-processing ultrasonic splice at good speed on breakdown, so can you. Finding clear tape splices is a joke. It's soooooooooooooooooooo easy it's pathetic. You just have to learn how to do the breakdown properly.

Yeah, yeah I know...I'll do a breakdown page at some point.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-22-2004, 06:34 PM:
 
I took two of those 24" flourescent lights that come in standees, and using plastic zip ties, tied them to the platter arms to help light up the bottom two platters better. It's a huge improvement over the pathetic little bulbs that are built into the platter, and the flourescents don't burn out every week. Anyone using this idea should be able to find any type of splice easily.
 

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Posted by Todd Cornwall (Member # 2205) on 05-22-2004, 07:31 PM:
 
Well, Brad, finding a clear splice while breaking down a print maybe sooooooo easy to someone who's done it, but I've never done it, so it seems like quite a task. I'm sure that once I find the proper way to locate the splices, it will be a piece of cake and I'll look back on this post and laugh, but until that time, I still need to find out how most people do it so I can make sure I do it right.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-22-2004, 07:35 PM:
 
It's easy. Stop looking for it. Seriously, look at the wall or something, but don't look at the film. You should be FEELING for the splice with a finger on one edge and your thumb on the other, gently cupping the film as it pulls off of the roll on the platter. This also permits you to "brake" with your palm once you feel it fly past your fingers.
 

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Posted by Todd Cornwall (Member # 2205) on 05-22-2004, 08:20 PM:
 
In the past, I have marked the reels with masking tape so that I know approximately where the film should be on the reel, however, the problem with that is #1, I'm not always putting the movies together, #2 Others may or may not want to take that extra step for me, #3, its only approximate and I could be already past the splice mark. So it helps a little, but its far from the perfect solution...besides, spining at that high speed, pretty much blurs any marks on the reel and I have to keep stopping to check.
 

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Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 05-22-2004, 10:14 PM:
 
The better you make your splices the harder they are to see, which is why everyone is saying "don't look for them." And never EVER put any crap on the film to help you find the splice. You're only teaching yourself how to find crap on the film instead of how to find a splice.

A trick I like while using Brad's method is to wear a white cotton glove. One, it helps prevent you from getting a paper cut or burn from the film, and two its easier to feel the splice because it tugs on the fabric of the glove when it goes by. It also helps you to distinguish between tension jolts that jerk the film and the actual splice.

After a while, you'll get used to the feel and you won't need the glove anymore.

"Your eyes can deceive you. Don't trust them." -- Obi Wan Kenobi
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-22-2004, 10:32 PM:
 
I've got four Work Study students working in my booth. They are allowed to work UP TO six hours per week doing jobs in my theaters. Usually they get about four hours each week, including seting up and striking the stage and other chores like cleaning up the stage. That leaves two or three hours of work solely in the booth.

Since they are college students they have other priorities than working for me but I have them trained well enough that they can build, operate and break down without me having to supervise them 100% of the time.

I know... I know... A lot of people don't like Edgemark tape but I think it's a valuable training aid. The first couple-three times I train them to build prints using Edgemark. As I see them getting more proficient we stop using it. By the time the end of the year comes around, all of my students are able to break down a print that's been spliced with clear tape, using no Edgemark, zebra tape or ink of any kind.

I've heard the standard complaints about using the stuff: It leaves stick-umm on the film. It makes the film jump in the gate.

First, if you use a short piece of the stuff (about a frame's length) there's less stick-umm to get on the film. Second, if you take the stuff off right away when you break down the print, there's nothing on the film that a little FilmGuard can't handle.

Unless you are meticulous about splicing or unless you want to spend the $$ for an ultrasonic splicer (or both) your splices are going to jump at least a little bit when they go through the gate. Properly applied, Edgemark only makes the film jump about the same amount that a splice does. If you measure your gate and make sure the Edgemark goes in a space that's about 2/3 the distance from the splice as the gate is long the film will have already jumped when the splice goes through. By the time the Edgemark gets to the gate the jump (if any) will be almost unnoticible.

The final thing is that Edgemark takes extra time to apply. In a commercial theater time is money. Time spent fooling around with yellow tape is time people could spend doing other jobs. Even if you're not an efficiency freak, the stuff is just a P.I.T.A. to work with. However, in the long run, using Edgemark saves me time. On movie nights, I usually work 16 hours. Sometimes more. I don't have the energy to sit there all night and help students find splices.

I only use the stuff as "Training Wheels". To me, it's a teaching aid. Nothing more. By the time a student has worked with me for a few months (working 1-2 days per week) they don't need it. They can break down a print by feeling the film or by looking for the splices extra carefully.

I see no reason why you can't learn to find splices too. If you want to use "Training Wheels", I have no problem if you do it carefully. I guarantee you will stop using Edgemark once you get the hang of things.
 

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Posted by Jeremy Fuentes (Member # 2135) on 05-22-2004, 10:59 PM:
 
One thing you can do, until you get used to finding the clear splices, is put a piece of artists tape, on top of the print, right at the next splice in the breakdown process. When you start getting close to the tape, you are close to the splice. You should be able to look at a print and see the splices from the top.
 

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Posted by Todd Cornwall (Member # 2205) on 05-22-2004, 11:00 PM:
 
Randy,

I appreciate the advice. I don't think I could talk anyone into using edgemark. From what I was told, the clear tape will not be used once it is gone, we will go to yellow tape. Now I'm not so sure I want that. I watched the clear tape go through, and I've had experience with all the other colors, I much prefer the clear...its all about the presentation and if that makes my job take a little longer...so be it. Thanks for all the info!!!
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-22-2004, 11:13 PM:
 
<loud whisper>
Clear tape is CHE-E-E-E-EAPER than zebra tape!
</loud whisper>

For the price you pay for that junk, you could buy a tube of clear tape AND a package of Edgemark and STILL spend less money!
 

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Posted by Todd Cornwall (Member # 2205) on 05-22-2004, 11:50 PM:
 
I dont order it, so I have no clue as to cost.
 

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Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 05-23-2004, 03:45 AM:
 
i feel directly on the roll of film for the splice. my index finger rides along the outside top edge and as the splice approaches i feel it every revolution. it gets more and more noticeable until it passes. when i don't feel the splice anymore, i slow to a halt. that was actually my interpretation of brad's tip, and it works pretty well.

usually i overshoot just a little when slowing down, so i manually backtrack a couple revolutions, cupping the film as brad suggests.

carl
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-23-2004, 05:12 AM:
 
I realize that this print is already built, but next time, mark the reel edges while the film is still on the reel. Put a piece of artists tape on the inside of the reel flange, and with a Sharpie mark how full the reel is. Then on breakdown, you can see the mark as the reel spins. As you get close, you slow down and there's your splice. Can't lose.
[av=k]
Since you've never broken down a print with clear tape before, it's gonna be really really really hard. I recommend suicide. Suicide is usually a good answer and you won't have to worry about finding those splices.
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 05-23-2004, 11:06 AM:
 
UGH!!! I've worked at a place that FORBID (ferbode?) using clear tape, and used solid yellow. Their reason? "It's easier to break down. With clear tape it's harder to break down and takes longer."

OH FUCKING PLEASE!!!!!

Are you building the print to be able to break it down faster, or are you building the print to PRESENT IT TO AN AUDIENCE???

If you work at a functioning theater that charges people to watch the movies, I assume the latter is what's intended. So why am I forced to see a blank frame and hear a THUD (or have the digital drop out) because some jackass popcorn jockey in the booth wants to get out 10 miuntes sooner six Thursdays from now?

Okay. Now that I'm calm, maybe I can help.

Everyone so far has had very good suggestions, such as artist's tape on the top of the print, marking the reel itself (on top of masking tape!!), and essentially FEELING for the splice instead of just looking for it. Remember, you're not SUPPOSED to see a clear splice. That's why it's preferred.

Also take into consideration this: When you look at the print on the platter, it's not one continuous roll. You can actually see the different shades of the different reels. I usually get a good angle when breaking down so the light hits the top of the print and I can see the shades. When it's getting close to the next shade, I slow down and start to feel for the splice.

The only problem with this would be lab splices, where the shade of the reel changes mid-way. But if your theater uses yellow tape, I highly doubt they remove lab splices, so you shouldn't confuse these with yours. (Especially since lab splices are in the middle of a scene 90% of the time, and reel changes are at scene changes.) Oh, and lab splices are glued/cemented/ultrasonic. (just a "bumpy" line, not tape)

Good luck!
=TMP=
 

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Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 05-23-2004, 12:49 PM:
 
Todd, mark'em any way you find convenient, paint pens, shoe polish, whatever. If you daon't do it, somebody else will. I run second run with us getting many films off the truck directly from some first run. Almost every print is visibly marked with something. Add to the list of invisible on the film stuff the dye that becomes visible in UV light. Unless your booth is unusually bright, a 15 watt blacklight fluorescent makes it jump out at you, leaves nothing visible on the film so you can put on as much as you need. You guys who agonize over what tape somebody used or something visible on the edge of a splice apparently don't have enough to do or don't work in the real world. In second run we see so much of it that it is plain that it simply doesn't matter. i've found it is extremely rare that reel splice marking has had any effect whatsoever.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-23-2004, 03:29 PM:
 

quote: Bill Enos

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mark'em any way you find convenient, paint pens, shoe polish, whatever.

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WHAT? YOU ARE ADVOCATING THIS??? Clearly all the theaters around you suck to high hell and back and you have never received a properly cared for print.
 

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Posted by Todd Cornwall (Member # 2205) on 05-23-2004, 03:59 PM:
 
Calm.....Calm...I would never mark the print with anything. I may not have posted much here, but I've been around long enough to read a lot of tips and forum messages. Have no fear, I will use clear...and like it.

 

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Posted by Kyle McEachern (Member # 2250) on 05-23-2004, 05:28 PM:
 

quote: Bill Enos

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You guys who agonize over what tape somebody used or something visible on the edge of a splice apparently don't have enough to do or don't work in the real world.

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quote: Bill

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In second run we see so much of it that it is plain that it simply doesn't matter. i've found it is extremely rare that reel splice marking has had any effect whatsoever.

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quote: Todd Cornwall

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Have no fear, I will use clear...and like it.

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quote: Bill Enos

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If you daon't do it, somebody else will.

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• Crappy masking tape that I had to peel off.
• Beat up frames at the ends of reels.
• Strings of accordion folded "ID frames" that have been chopped and respliced.
• Damaged film that I had to splice out.
• Cue tapes that are never taken off. Sometimes layer upon layer.
• Layer upon layer of yellow splicing tape that's never peeled off.

Literally a pile of junked film as big as a baseball!
I (and my workers) spend a LOT of time fixing up this crappy film. Sometimes I wonder, "Waht's the fucking use?!"

How much would a company charge to repair, clean, lubricate and inspect a print like the way I do? I'd really like to know because, some day, I'm going to get pissed off and blow my stack and call up the company to say, "Either you send me a clean print or I'm sending YOU a bill for my film repair services!"
 

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Posted by Nicole Halper (Member # 2299) on 05-23-2004, 09:51 PM:
 
I agree entirely with brad's original method of finding the splices. All we use is clear at my theatre, and that method works every time. I remember being taught how to properly break down on my first night in booth, and I don't believe any other tape would take less time.
Honestly, if I can manage this (mind you I can almost guarantee that I am younger that the rest of you)- then anyone should be able to!
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 05-23-2004, 10:30 PM:
 
Stop boasting, you also said you're thankful for DLP!
 

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Posted by Todd Cornwall (Member # 2205) on 05-23-2004, 10:33 PM:
 
I'm sure thats true, just remember, you were shown how to do it with clear tape, its all you know, of course its easy. Once you've used colored tape, then go to clear...its a different story. I've never had to feel for splices before, I could easily see them coming. I dont anticipate that clear tape will be a big problem anymore, so I'm ok with it. It will take a few weeks to get used to it, but I WILL get used to it.
 

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Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 05-23-2004, 11:03 PM:
 
Good for you, Todd! Welcome aboard!

In a couple of weeks, you'll be ready to answer the next guy who asks this question!
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 05-24-2004, 12:33 AM:
 
Gotta admit... I saw my first tape splicers in booths that only used colored tape, and I followed that line of thinking for some time... drive-in... indoor... it didn't matter. I HATED the blip in the picture when the splice ran through, but accepted it as a matter of "progress".

Then, I went to work in Seattle.

It's amazing how fast your perceptions of what a good presentation looks like can change. Still, it wasn't easy. OK... indoor house, clear tape. Drive-in... colored. Who cares?

Of course, after actually trying it, you become a convert very quickly. It's like the first time you put a FilmGuarded print through a drive-in machine. At the size we blow things up, dirt looks like big hunks of cow ... not a pretty picture.

So, take a deep breath and give this a try. You'll swear by it in no time, not to mention getting smily faces from Joe. Finding the splices is no big deal. As Brad says, you can feel the tape going by. You can almost always see the reel bands on the platter, so you have a pretty good idea a splice is coming (studio splices can muck this up, though).

PS... we no longer carry colored tape, or markers of any kind around here. It all went the way of our WD-40 cans!
 

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Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 05-24-2004, 01:01 AM:
 
Damn, that never fails to get everybody riled up, and that's at least the third time I've posted the same comments. Gets 'em every time. No, I don't advocate applying crap allover the last 20 feet and don't put on anything on an unmarked print than the UV reflective stuff, which I seldom have to use. There is no colored or white tape in the booth either--it has no purpose.
 

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Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 05-24-2004, 03:53 AM:
 


and to think I was finally gonna get a chance to wack someone with my film-tech baseball bat.....just the thing for outing bad film handler....permanently!

Josh
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 05-24-2004, 05:53 AM:
 
In a somewhat displeasing post, Bill Enos writes, "I run second run with us getting many films off the truck directly from some first run. Almost every print is visibly marked with something."

It's amazing how different a world you must live in. We run two to three prints a weekend non-theatrically (except summer), which means the same pool of prints as 2nd run (generally). Reel end markings are NOT a common occurance.

Less than 1 in 10 prints, if that.

All the other crap, yes. Masking tape, leaders not spliced, lab splices intact, multiple layers of tape, out of frame splices, cue tape, reels broken down in the wrong places (well, that's less than 1 in 10, too), scratched (we replace if its bad where feasable), missing DTS (1 in ~8), etc.

So, do you suppose it is regional variation? Sample size? (how many screens are you?) Observer error?

--jhawk
 

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Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 05-24-2004, 08:07 AM:
 
It really would be interesting to find out where prints have been. There may be regional variations, colored tape is marking, and it is almost always present, easily removed, hardly a factor.

Of the eleven films we ran during the VCU French Film Festival, nine came directly from Paris--4 had shoe polish. The other two came from the U.S. and Canada--both had silver paint stick, must have been to the same theater at some point.

Yes, DLP will eliminate these things, but the long term problems with that have yet to be discovered.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-24-2004, 09:19 AM:
 
When film is slit to 38 strips from a "wide roll" to 35mm, each slitter knife has a unique "profile" that can be seen as a gloss difference as you look at the spliced rolls on the platter. Each reel will have a slightly different gloss. As Thomas Procyk notes, a lab splice where two different rolls of raw stock are joined will also have this gloss difference. Good lighting will help see the gloss difference, so you can anticipate the splice as you unwind the film.

[ 05-24-2004, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: John Pytlak ]
 

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Posted by Nicole Halper (Member # 2299) on 05-24-2004, 09:35 AM:
 
(earlier Steve- I wasn't trying to gloat. It's so hard to sense sarcasm in a post. It was really more of - well if I can do it-- anyone can.-- and I see you visited my site to conclude the dlp comment.---mind you I also said I bought 225 watches- you can't believe everything you read)

[ 05-24-2004, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: Nicole Halper ]
 

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Posted by Jeremy Fuentes (Member # 2135) on 05-24-2004, 09:41 AM:
 

quote: John Pytlak

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a lab splice where two different rolls of raw stock are joined will also have this gloss difference

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quote: John Pytlak

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When film is slit to 38 strips from a "wide roll" to 35mm, each slitter knife has a unique "profile" that can be seen as a gloss difference as you look at the spliced rolls on the platter.

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Wow. John, do you have any links to THAT? I'd like to read more about that process. I've never heard of that.

I learn something new every day!
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-24-2004, 02:27 PM:
 
Here's a link to how wide rolls are slit, perforated, and packaged at Kodak:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/h1/sizesP.shtml#p
 

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Posted by Jason M Miller (Member # 2597) on 08-09-2004, 10:51 PM:
 
After reading all of this I think I would like to use clear for all of the splices at the theater I work for but we use Zebra Tape for the reel to reel splices, and I know if I use the clear the person that has to break it down will get pissed and yell at me.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 08-09-2004, 11:56 PM:
 
If you absolutely have to use something then put some tape on the shipping reel and mark the diameter of the film pack and the reel number before you build. Then on breakdown you can wind at high speed until you get very close, slow down, and watch and feel for the splice. At least that way only you're only doing something to the reel not the print.
 

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Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 08-10-2004, 12:01 AM:
 

quote:

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It's so hard to sense sarcasm in a post. I

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I think that is what these are for...
 

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Posted by Robert L. Fischer (Member # 2424) on 08-10-2004, 05:00 AM:
 
My theater requires the use of yellow tape. I'd like to use clear tape, but we platter our prints and our SPECO make-up tables are good at throwing film on the floor if you have to make a sudden stop. If it were up to me, I'd inspect every print on a rewind bench, but our two benches are covered with crap and haven't been used in years. When I used it once to rewind a few reels, my co-workers looked at me like I was crazy. Most of them didn't even know what they were intended for. If only they knew the concept of "film done right"...
 

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Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 08-10-2004, 06:10 AM:
 
using clear tape won't necessitate making sudden stops during breakdown. if you place your finger on the outer top edge of the film that's still on the platter, you can feel the splice many revolutions in advance. you can slow down gradually as you feel it approach. when i stop, i overshoot by around 10' or so, then spin the platter the other way by hand, feeling for the splice as it comes back off the shipping reel.

when your coworkers look at you like you're crazy, look at them like they're idiots. but keep doing inspections on the rewinds. when you find a poorly aligned lab splice, film damage, or old cue tape on a reel, point it out to them and say "i sure am glad i caught that before it ran through the projector!" be consciencious yourself, and it may rub off on others. encourage them to check out this site.

carl
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-10-2004, 12:16 PM:
 
Darnit Carl, where's your member picture. You've got almost 700 posts and yet still no pic.

quote: Carl Martin

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if you place your finger on the outer top edge of the film that's still on the platter, you can feel the splice many revolutions in advance.

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quote: Jason M Miller

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I know if I use the clear the person that has to break it down will get pissed and yell at me.

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One possible answer to the person who accosts you about using clear tape: "Maybe, if you didn't jack off so G**damm much, you wouldn't be so BLIND and you could SEE the splices!"



Seriously, now... Go ahead and use clear tape but take a red Sharpie marker and color in the sprocket holes on the off-soundtrack side of the film so that the red mark stands out enough to see or at least so you can tell reel change splices from repair splices.

(Make sure you make the marks on the tape and not the film!)

If you wait a few seconds for the ink to dry before you continue on, no marks will transfer to other layers of film when it gets wound up on the platter. Neither will FilmGuard remove the ink in normal use.

This is one of the "training wheels" I use to teach my students to find splices when breaking down. After a while they get lazy and stop using the marker.

If my college Work Study kids can learn how to find splices, your coworker can! (Even if he IS spankin'-the-monkey-blind!)
 

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Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 08-11-2004, 02:37 AM:
 

quote: Brad Miller

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Personally I think you will find that marking the "fill line" on the reel a better solution for assisting with finding the splice.

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to be sure, i do that as well. that'll get you in the neighborhood. feeling the film will help you find the address.

carl
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-11-2004, 03:16 AM:
 
How do you expect Carl to get his together enough to send in a picture when he can't even navigate a SHIFT key?


P.S. That was sarcasm.
 

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Posted by Edward Jurich (Member # 1787) on 08-11-2004, 05:38 PM:
 
I use clear tape. But first put a small piece of yellow tape on the edge of the film next to the sound track. Then complete splicing with clear tape on both sides. The yellow edge is easy to see same as if the entire splice was yellow tape. I don't like using tiger tape, the tiger tape I've seen isn't as clear as clear tape.
 

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