Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Film & Disc on leader?

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Posted by Joop de Gruiter (Member # 84) on 05-27-2004, 07:59 AM:

Some weeks ago I was running Sullivans travels (1941), and on the leader it said: sound print film & disc, what does this mean? Was the sound both on the film and on a phonographic disc?
In that case it would be nice if the disc would still come with the print.

Joop.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-27-2004, 08:22 AM:

I doubt that a 1941 film would have used the Vitaphone system that used separate phonograph discs, but perhaps the leader masters were never updated in the decade or so since Vitaphone was discontinued in 1933?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitaphone

http://www.davemackey.com/animation/wb/fieldguide.html

http://www.amps.net/newsletters/issue19/19_synch.htm

http://www.filmsound.org/film-sound-history/sound1928part1.htm

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 05-27-2004, 08:33 AM:

"Sullivan's Travels" (1941) was a Paramount Pictures release at the time, it's now handled by Universal (USA rights). They were using sound on film at that time.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-27-2004, 02:24 PM:

The last remaining UK distributor to do so, Warners, stopped supplying Vitaphone discs on 1 April 1933. I presume that they'd been supplying combined optical prints for some years previously and had shipped discs as an option for the remaining theatres which still hadn't installed a reader. I have a photocopy of their ad making the announcement in Kinematograph Weekly (the main exhibition industry trade paper at the time) in a file somewhere: I'll look it out and scan it if I get a moment. The announcement promoted a flood of letters from disgruntled disc theatres, many of which insisted that the discs produced better quality audio than optical sound film. Interesting parallels with the cyan tracks business now...

Posted by Mark Ogden (Member # 43) on 05-27-2004, 06:33 PM:

Just a shot in the dark, but I think point they were trying to get across was: "This is a sound print, it contains both the film AND the sound which until recently was found on the disc, so don't go looking for the disc, cause there ain't any, because this is a sound print, which has BOTH the picture AND the sound, so the disc isn't needed, because what was once on the disc is now on the film".

Or something.

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 05-27-2004, 07:42 PM:

16mm prints of this title had the same things on them. Sound print film disc. I just assumed that Paramount used the Vitaphone system also. We had a print of The Uninvited that had this on the leader, too.

Posted by Wayne Keyser (Member # 2420) on 05-27-2004, 11:02 PM:

I wish I could see a little more of the leader in the attached picture - entirely aside from a "film"-oriented answer, from a viewpoint of having designed a lot of graphics, that is a VERY modern-looking typeface and layout style (all caps, a good amount - but not TOO much - of letterspacing). I'd find it hard to believe that the type in the photo was generated in the 1940s.

Not that this note is a whole lot of help.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 05-28-2004, 09:05 AM:

I don't. It looks very art-deco.

Btw, it's real. I've run those leaders, too.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-28-2004, 02:17 PM:

Where exactly is the leader in that picture? What I see looks almost like a giant microchip (an oxymoron, I know. But I am a moron myself). I don't see anything that resembles a film leader. It looks metallic to me.[av=k]

Posted by Joop de Gruiter (Member # 84) on 05-29-2004, 09:30 AM:

The picture is taken through a loupe, I haven't got a scanner yet.
Did Paramount Pictures use Vitaphone or simular discs? Can we assume that the lab just still used the same old leaders since Vitaphone wasn't in use anymore by 1941?

Joop.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-29-2004, 05:53 PM:

What is a "loupe"? I don't think we have that word over here (at least I haven't personally obtained it in my vocabulary yet). I look at the picture and I still have no clue what I am looking at. It doesn't look like anything. Inquiring minds wanna know! [Smile]

[av=l]

Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 05-29-2004, 05:59 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
What is a "loupe"? I don't think we have that word over here (at least I haven't personally obtained it in my vocabulary yet).

Type of magnifying glass; also handy for checking for hooked sprockets.

danny

Posted by Wayne Keyser (Member # 2420) on 05-29-2004, 10:15 PM:

Magnifying glass? What, one of them jeweler's/watchmaker's thingies they stick in their eye ans squint through?

Naaaah!

A loupe is what you make in the projectore so the filme doesn't breake.

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 05-29-2004, 11:52 PM:

Some loupes (these are made by Gaebel):

Typical film inspection usage:

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-30-2004, 02:44 AM:

But what are those brown-ish brick like things around the silver image? This MUST be explained quickly![av=h]

Posted by Joop de Gruiter (Member # 84) on 05-30-2004, 03:18 AM:

ok ok , It's some kind of loupe, magnifier used for measuring dots per inch, or maybe per centimeter in this case, used for checking the quality of graphic material on paper I think (I haven't used it for that purpose myself, my father bought it in Istanbul because he thought it was nice, and it is) the "bricks" are millimeter lines.

So maybe now you can get some sleep now Joe. [Wink]

I'll take a picture of it tomorrow. And all will be cleared up.

Joop.

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 05-30-2004, 11:22 AM:

I'll play along again... Oops! Joop beat me to it. [Big Grin]

Joop is using something like this folding loupe with reticule:

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 06-01-2004, 03:38 PM:

quote:
Joop wrote:In that case it would be nice if the disc would still come with the print.

Why? What would you do think you would be able to do with the disc? Put it in your DTS unit? [Razz]