Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Prints winding smoother than others.

This is topic Prints winding smoother than others. in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 06-02-2004, 09:26 AM:

Okay, this has been bothering me for some time now, so I figured I'd ask here. I'm running Cinemeccanica V5's (and one V8) with AW3 platters and Irwin Citation seats with GCC/Pepsi cupholders.

I noticed that, while all prints wind "smooth" in the sense that they lay flat on the platter evenly and there are no edges higher than the others, some prints wind incredibly smooth.

For example, with the typical print sitting on the platter if you were to run your hand along the top it would feel smooth, but still a little bit "groovy" like those formica countertops or the surface of an old (78) record. If you were to curve your fingers and run the tips along the top, you'd hear that "weeeeek" sound like scratching a record.

However, a few prins that we had recently were winding incredibly smooth. Running your hand along these would feel like glass. Completely flat with no groovyness. (this happens on all platters, all decks. The "problem" follows the print) If you do the curved finger trick, there's no scratching sound. It's as if the entire print was a single solid circular mass and not a roll of film.

Now, the titles: Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Butterfly Effect and Lord of the Rings --- all New Line, all FUJI stock! The only other one that did this was Monster from NewMarket, and I'm not sure what stock that was on but I don't recall it being Kodak.

So what's the story? Is fujifilm thinner than Kodak or other stocks? I think it would be hard to believe that film is cut within a few micrometers difference... (this stuff has to be exact, no?) Anyone else having this same anomaly? I never had it happen on other equipment, prints just wind normally, but these AW3's sure do wind them smooooth! Unless it's a change in film stocks.

Just curious.

=TMP=

Posted by Dean Kollet (Member # 1789) on 06-02-2004, 11:13 AM:

I've noticed this as well, the smooothest being an film from India we screened a few weeks ago (It didn't even feel like film). I'm not too sure about the Irwin Citation seats, but the GCC/Pepsi cupholders might have something to do with it [Big Grin]

Posted by Jeremy Fuentes (Member # 2135) on 06-02-2004, 11:25 AM:

You have cupholders on your platters, wow!! [Big Grin]

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-02-2004, 12:35 PM:

Generally, added surface roughness helps reduce static issues.

Posted by Jeremy Fuentes (Member # 2135) on 06-02-2004, 12:41 PM:

So, its a static and platter issue, and not a film stock issue?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-02-2004, 12:49 PM:

Controlled surface roughness can be used as a tool to help control static. "Glass-like" smooth surfaces tend to be more prone to laps sticking.

As a real world example, did you ever try to separate two pieces of plate glass or glass microscope slides that were stuck together?

Posted by Jeremy Fuentes (Member # 2135) on 06-02-2004, 12:57 PM:

So its a preference for the film not to take-up as smooth as glass on the platter.

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 06-02-2004, 01:33 PM:

I'm not talking about the image area of the picture, as would be the case of John's example with the glass or slides sticking together. I'm talking about the edge of the print, as it's wound on the platter. The "surface" being the top of the print as it lays flat.

Does Kodak pour sand into the mix of polyester to control static then? [Big Grin]

=TMP=

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-02-2004, 01:50 PM:

quote: Thomas Procyk
Does Kodak pour sand into the mix of polyester to control static then?

Not sand, but something known as "matte" is in the formula for most films to deliberately increase microscopic surface roughness. Matte also helps control sticking and ferrotyping.

The other downside to a "glass like" sidewall roll surface is that on a normal platter, the roll may slide around more easily.

I recall some theatres were having issues with LOTR:

LOTR Issues

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-02-2004, 06:43 PM:

You can control this on AW3 platters. It has to do with the fine adjustment of the slide bar. Loosen your allen head (or change out your bolts to allen head) so that the bar is snug, but still moveable. Start a film running onto the top platter. Adjust the bar upward until you see the film is no longer laying on the platter, then ever so slowly lower the bar a tiny bit at a time until the print lays flat and smooth. Then repeat for the lower two decks, only lowering if there is a problem.

That is how the last roller SHOULD be set on a platter. Unfortunately too many crappy platter designs do not permit this fine adjustment and platter scratches as well as other little things such as the film "scooping up dust" on the deck become a potential problem.

Basically due to the curve of the film, if that last roller feeding the film onto the platter is a little bit lower than center, it causes that effect. Fuji film tends to be a little more slick and as such isn't affected as much. Also, takeup tension affects this. Higher takeup tension exaggerates the roughness of the wind. If you buff your platters (in the tips section), you will be amazed at the quality of the wind.

Probably more important than any of this though is getting rid of Pepsi and selling Coke. [Razz]

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 06-02-2004, 07:28 PM:

So Brad, you're saying the smooooooth wind is good or bad? Sounds like your tip is to MAKE the winds that smooth. I've checked all our platters recently and all seem to be fine in the adjustment department (everything else winds normal except the Fuji prints, which wind smoother.) Our rollers are old and wobbly (no, they wont replace them) but they don't seem to affect the wind, just the payout.

Oh and we DO sell Coke. They got mad at the Pepsi cupholders. So we told them to provide us with free Coke cupholders to replace them. That's the last we heard about that topic. [Smile]

=TMP=

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-02-2004, 08:21 PM:

You want a smooth and even wind from the platter. But you don't want the surface of the film itself so smooth ("glass like") that the roll can slide around.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-02-2004, 08:49 PM:

Yes, I go for the super smooth wind. I don't have any scientific data to back up my preference, but the prints definitely do wind tighter and the payout arm is amazingly steady when the prints wind that even.

John, with AW3 platters either being buffed or scratched to hell and back, the smoothness of the wind does not affect the print sliding around. Having a slightly rough/textured deck will go far beyond what a filmstock can do.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-02-2004, 09:47 PM:

Unfortunately, some platter decks are rather slick, or get that way with use.