Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: WHICH CYAN READER IS BEST

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Posted by Frank Jerkic (Member # 2446) on 06-03-2004, 09:31 PM:

Now the some of you have run a cyan print, can anyone say which reader works best, are Jaxlights/reverse scan etc as good or bad as I have read, I have been in contact with Atlab Australia and film distributors trying to obtain some cyan film to make a test loop.
As some of you know I own Century's which are fitted with the TR4B sound reproducer, one has never been converted to stereo (same as it left the factory) the other was changed to stereo by moving the exciter light to the end where the solar cell was originally fitted.

The Kalee soundhead is the 890 which is stereo for the drive in, the solar cell runs straight into a preamp-FM STEREO transmitter, The Drive in went Stereo years ago and our first Stereo movi was WILLOW
Regards
Frank

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-03-2004, 11:03 PM:

Jaxlights are crap designed for super cheap theater owners.

My personal favorite is the BACP reader. Hands down it is the easiest to install and I get the best performance out of it. Second (and a pretty close second) is the Kelmar. I'm not a fan of the CE readers, due to their unnecessarily complex design.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-03-2004, 11:18 PM:

Even though we are in 100% compliance in our theaters, we still not have seen one cyan print come through our houses.

As far as what we have, they are all from Component Engineering. They have excellent performance with the standard run-of-the-mill optical soundtrack. As for how they perform with cyan soundtracks, I cannot comment on that at this time. When we finally start running they cyan prints then maybe I can give some feedback to you all. But as for now, that's all I can say.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 06-04-2004, 01:50 AM:

Brad, what do you mean by "complex design", and how do you feel it makes the CE readers inferior to the others? I haven't used "the others", but have plenty of CE's around. They're all over the NorthWest... possibly due to the location of their factory!...

Just curious... I was under the impression that the performance of the Kelmars, CE's and BACP's were reasonably comparable.

Posted by Dean Kollet (Member # 1789) on 06-04-2004, 02:27 AM:

We have Component Engineering as well, and with two Cyan-track films in the past year at our theatre ( Soul Plane and Anything Else ) they have proved to be just as good playing the Cyan track (or damn close)

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-04-2004, 02:44 AM:

Performance-wise they are similar. Have you never seen a Century converted with a CE reader?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-04-2004, 06:14 AM:

Brad,

This oughtta be good...Yeah, I've done Centurys with CE readers...what is the problem? In fact, only the CE reader can overcome mis-machining of the Solar Cell surface (now used by the LED bracket)...all the others use a fixed LED bracket that provides for no lateral adjustment.

The Kelmar reader, if a basement digital reader, requires one to use hole-saws to carve out the septum between the exciter compartment and the film compartment...the CE does not.

All three systems listed though have done a fine job but only Kelmar and CE can do basement Dolby Digital (of the retrofits).

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-04-2004, 07:40 AM:

"All three systems listed though have done a fine job but only Kelmar and CE can do basement Dolby Digital (of the retrofits)."
_________________________________________________________________

BACP has kept out of the basement for very good reasons.... because they have developed a far superior way to read data from on top of the projector, in fact far better than any other penthouse reader can read back with the exception of the latest incarnation of the Dolby penthouse that also uses BACP's technology.

Now I know that [steve]

knows this but I just wanted to be sure that everyone else does [Wink]

.

In fact all three manufacturers use the same LED and solor cell in their analog scanning devices but that is where the similarities end. The biggest difference between them is in the power supply design, then in the audio circuitry. BACP's design, with all circuitry including the power supply integrated onto one pluggable PCB at the pickup end is to me a far superior overall design than any of the others. It is also the best made of the bunch with machining quality second to none. Any of the others COULD have gone the integrated route as well if they had spent the time and effort to do so. All of the readers available out there work very well but there are advantages using some over others. Ya just have to know which one to use for what set of circumstances and why. I will say though that 96% of out reader sales are BACP with the other 4% going to other manufacturers for certain reasons such as which Steve mentioned in the above post or because the larger BACP pickup will not fit into a fixed wall exciter compartment. Also, some manufacturers make readers for some projectors and others don't. One other small note is that the BACP readers are by far the easiest and guickest to install properly. This is most helpful for those that have a large plex in need of conversion. It is also the only manufacturer which has a USER REPLACABLE LED ASSY.

Mark

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 06-04-2004, 08:36 AM:

I agree with the other Steve, Kelmar & CE are the best I've heard. Good frequency response, & clarity with our Ultra Stereo processors especially.

Posted by Jonathan Worthing (Member # 803) on 06-04-2004, 09:58 AM:

quote:
Jaxlights are crap designed for super cheap theatre owners

Brad

When the [bs]

hits the fan on cyan tracks (in the UK especially)

The Jaxlight will come in handy as a fast solution for converting a lot of Systems.

The prices of updating to cyan stops a lot of owners upgrading now.

To a lot of owners Cyan has become some sort of a myth, so when it does come so many cinemas will not be ready.

To dismiss Jaxlights off the cuff because you don't like it may make owners who are looking for conversions, decide that they will look at more expensive systems which will delay there decision to upgrade.

In my experience I have not had a bad result from Jaxlight.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-04-2004, 10:06 AM:

What is the approximate cost of the BACP reader for Century R-3 soundheads? Last I checked, a pair of CE readers was just under $1k, which is more than I really want to spend in order to reproduce sound. How long does installation usually take? Does it really require a tech or could I do it myself if I buy/borrow the proper test films, scope, RTA, etc. to do a new A-chain?

This is for private home use; I won't be doing the "upgrade" until (and if) I get a cyan print, which is probably several years away, if ever.

Since I have no interest in digital basement readers, is there any reason not to go with the BACP?

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-04-2004, 10:22 AM:

The problem with JaxLites is that, for the trouble they cause, it's probably worth it just to get a full reverse scan conversion and be done with it. If you add in the cost of "Pain-in-the-ass Value", the price for a full conversion isn't that much more.

I've installed a bunch of the Component Engineering LED systems (Into Simplex 5-Star sound heads) and they really aren't that difficult to put in.

Finally, once you get them installed and running, they are virtually trouble free. If you do a proper installation and a good A-Chain on them, all subsequent A-Chains are reduced to the level of running a couple loops of test film.

When I was in charge of 120 projectors that was a godsend! I could go to each theater and do an initial full-on A-Chain. Once it was done to my satisfaction, every following visit was nothing more than a check-up. (As far as sound head maintanence.)

Simply choosing the JaxLites because they have a lower initial price tag is a false economy.

Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 06-04-2004, 11:20 AM:

Right, and in some cases the Jaxlight is hardly less expensive, to begin with, than other options. For example I priced out the Kelmar reader that uses the existing exciter lamp supply, and the price was perhaps $150 more. Not a whole lot if it means far better sound with less installation problems.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 06-04-2004, 02:01 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
Performance-wise they are similar. Have you never seen a Century converted with a CE reader?

Yes... I have 4 of them here & several I "watch over".

quote: Jonathan Worthing
When the hits the fan on cyan tracks (in the UK especially)

The Jaxlight will come in handy as a fast solution for converting a lot of Systems.

Maybe... but how likely is it that a theatre operator will then go back and retrofit AGAIN to a superior reader? If this is the prevailing mentality, I'd bet a lot of you will wind up with permanent Jaxlight installations.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 06-04-2004, 02:28 PM:

Jack hit the nail on the head. You can bet your bippy, if they put Jerxlights in, that'll be the last anyone hears of it (literally and figuratively).

It's false economy. Too many owners drop dimes to pick up pennies.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-04-2004, 02:51 PM:

"To dismiss Jaxlights off the cuff because you don't like it may make owners who are looking for conversions, decide that they will look at more expensive systems which will delay there decision to upgrade."
_________________________________________________________________

What will ultimately hurry the owners along is when a cyan print arrives that they can't play back!!

Personally, I can't think of a single reason that one should install a jAX Light.... we have stopped selling them and still have two sitting in the stock room. One may actually diminish the quality of the A chain by doing so. When the inexpensive C.E. pickup is so close to the price of a JaX Light why one would want to go the jAx Light route is simply beyond any normal logic. The pricing you get may also be directly related to how many your dealer purchases..... so check around at least with several dealers for the "best Price [thumbsup]

".

Another dealer thats no longer operating in the Mountain States area had fast talked so many owners into installing jax lights... but I'm now slowly in the process of getting rid of those a few at a time for those that are willing and want to have better analog reproduction.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-04-2004, 06:02 PM:

Mark,

I don't have problems with my basement readers (Kelmar or CE) and don't see any need of adding a penthouse to do what the soundhead can do just fine.

A Kinoton basement reader can give a penthouse a run for its money too.

As to penthouses...I'll take a Cat. 699 or Cat. 700 over any of the LED based ones.

BACP does win on the ease of installation and the user changable LED is a big plus for them. The tally lights and the other "value adds" make them an excellent value. The wall-wort belongs in the trash...no real professional equipment uses them and even in-line worts suck. While they make UL/ETL easier they are still just stupid.

A CE ASR-40 system is quite cost effective and wins high marks for the power supply...note, you can order it with either logic to suit you automation or installation needs). This little guy can be installed (if ordered with logic off until closed) using your existing exciter lamp wiring (just remove the exciter supply) so that that LED ramps on and off as the tungsten lamp did before...without WOMPs or even exciter lamp changeover (did a set in a drive-in).

Kelmar is the only one to properly support the Century JJ with an R50 soundhead to allow the 70mm film to slip through.

What I also like about doing basement readers on Centurys is that the soundhead gets an overall improvement in stability so even analog benefits.

For a fun experiment, if you have a felt G-1985 for your Simplex, try that with a basement reader...your eyes will bug out when you see the error readings (presuming all else is in order)...typically 1-point LESS than with any penthouse reader. I made a Dolby-guy wig out on that one...they ran their print in NYC on a penthouse and when they saw the basement reader he shuddered...I said don't worry...what did it run on the penthouse (something like a 3 on average)...I said then this will run a 2 or "2." ...and it did. This was on a Simplex SH-10XX (gearbox) soundhead with a felt G-1985 roller (that was still soft felt and not petrified but kept clean). All fo the sprockets were CS not VKF since they run some slightly shrunk 4-track films from their collection.

While I can appreciate the speed and ease of installation of the penthouse, I don't buy that they are necessary for a good reliable Dolby Digital installation...at least not on the projector/soundheads we typically work with (Simplex, Century, Kinoton).

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-04-2004, 06:41 PM:

"I don't have problems with my basement readers (Kelmar or CE) and don't see any need of adding a penthouse to do what the soundhead can do just fine.

A Kinoton basement reader can give a penthouse a run for its money too.

As to penthouses...I'll take a Cat. 699 or Cat. 700 over any of the LED based ones"

I don't remember saying that I had any problems either. I just happen to prefer to use the one with the best available technology.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 06-04-2004, 09:58 PM:

Reply to my friend Steve Guttag. Regarding wall warts, even spelled correctly, they are somewhat inelegant, but a tradeoff.

We spent our money on features and lenses that are better than those used by other vendors. We were the first to use high quality custom designed lenses for this purpose which allowed us to run relatively low LED current with good signal to noise ratio. Background noise from dirt and scratches is a good bit lower that other US vendors. I can't speak to Kinoton spec's.

We also set our magnification very carefully to get all the analog soundtrack read.

FYI, I use the CE external power supply with the DP75 reader where my internal supply simply won't fit.

CE and Kelmar are my competitors for readers but also my friends and vendors for specific merchandise.

Isn't this business great?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-04-2004, 10:23 PM:

Steveo,

quote: Brad Miller
I'm not a fan of the CE readers, due to their unnecessarily complex design.

That's a complaint from projectionists. CE systems tend to take up lots of space in the soundhead and it makes threading more difficult. Not that the projectionists can't learn to thread it, or that the CE doesn't perform anywhere near the Kelmar (it does).

I'm still 100% sold on the BACP over the Kelmar and CE due to installation ease and performance. Whenever Adam finishes some coding for the site, a review will appear as will other daily updates.

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 142) on 06-05-2004, 03:03 AM:

I have looked at, and used many Frank, I have found the Component Engineering solution a good one on our Century here at the Lunar Drive-in Theatre.

What have users of Red Led converted Norelco AA2's (DP70's) found? We have two to convert and would love some feedback from the field on the various options? What do they use at Village Westwood and the Chinese in LA?

David

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 06-05-2004, 05:58 AM:

"The prices of updating to cyan stops a lot of owners upgrading now"

I can honestly say that all of my customers have updated to either ACL laser or reverse scan, and they're all tight arsed Scotsmen! [beer]

"In my experience I have not had a bad result from Jaxlight"
[Eek!]

I'd wager you've never REALLY listened to them then, try sitting in the theatre with the fader on 7, in SR with the projector running and the booth lights on.... HUMMMMMMMM! [puke]

I've lost count of the number of these things I've binned and replaced with Walter Voight laser or reverse scan units, due to the customer complaining about hum, changeover thump or other extraneous audible noises. I hasten to add that I've never been involved with the supply or installation of the Jaxlight, we looked at them initially, but due to the problems we found with noise we decided against them. The idea behind the Jaxlight is sound, as it's design and construction, it's simply that with the pre-amp you are trying to achieve the impossible, amplify an already tiny signal wthout amplifying noise.

Of the reverse scanners I like the CE best, due to the amount of adjustment one has on the LED it's possible to achieve perfect slit illumination. I've not seen BACP kit so I can't comment.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 06-05-2004, 06:42 AM:

Another advantage of the wart solution is that it is easy to troubleshoot over the phone and all that is needed on the other side of the phone line is an extension chord. Although we never had any problems with them so far except for once when the projectionist unplugged one from the convenience outlet to power his radio. He probably thought the outlet was provided for his convenience.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-05-2004, 08:21 AM:

Davod,
BACP makes two conversions for the DP-70, FP4,5,6,7 sound reproducers. One that is field installable but very difficult to do, and another that uses a standard BACP pickup and new design LED mount. The following photos give you some idea of whast involved to install one. Yesterday morning I machined 13 of the sound head castings for the conversion. I have come up with a VERY easy way to do this and maintain accuracy so if you do any of them down under contact me in regards how to do it.
We always have at least one of these as a totally rebuilt soundhead in stock ready to ship.

The BACP alignment jig used during machining to check the machined deck height.

The first batch of machined castings I did last year.

The finished product installed in the DP-70. We also split the lateral guide roller and spring load it to eliminate any side weave. The sound drum film contact rings also get a cleanup grind at a local grinding shop, the slot in the drum gets a plunge grind at the same time to widen it a wee bit for the LED mount. This assures perfect focus of the track as the drum rotates.

Whle you're at it a Simplex VKF sprocket is easy to bore out and install on the DP-70. You will get much lower flutter using these over the older Phillips CS type tooth.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Matthew Jaro (Member # 1786) on 06-05-2004, 10:06 AM:

I use BACP readers in Simplex 5-star heads. They don't take up much room, the LEDs let me know if a signal is being received, and even if the print is stereo or mono (this is not always marked on the leaders). I doubled my analog frequency response to 16 Khz (from 8). I'm not getting sibilant problems as noted in other threads. Sam was very supportive in converting from RCA 1030 sound heads. I use a CAT-700 penthouse for SRD.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 06-05-2004, 10:58 AM:

The wall wort is an easy way to meet UL/CE/CEE specs and my experience in instances with BACP and Walter Voight ACL units on Cinemeccanica and Ernemann machines have been problem free. I factored that the "convenience outlet" would be an issue so I would mount a single dedicated outlet out of the operator's tinkering reach......front mounted console outlets with a downward tilt can be a problem with the weight mass of the wort. ACL wall wort has enough reserve to operate two lasers which is nice when upgrading older 16/35 Ernemann units.The soft start on the CE ASR power supply I also like very much.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-05-2004, 11:51 AM:

quote:

...try sitting in the theatre with the fader on 7, in SR with the projector running and the booth lights on.... HUMMMMMMMM!

How about standing about 3 feet away from the projector while it's running with the sound head door open then hold a cigarette lighter about waist high and flick it a couple of times.

You hear a loud "POP!!" coming through the system!!

The JaxLite amplifies the signal so much that ANY stray light hitting the cell is heard in the theater. In fact, in one theater, the simple act of turning on the framing lamp causes a pop.

Posted by Mike Perju (Member # 1482) on 06-05-2004, 03:59 PM:

The BACP readers actually have an internal lateral adjustment for Century projectors, but the LED bracket does not. The lateral adjustment is made through a little hole on the front of the reader, to the right of the signal & power present LEDs. I can't rememeber what size Allen key you need to do the adjustment...

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 06-06-2004, 12:04 PM:

The solar cell can be moved laterally but it is primarily intended to be used for projectors with a non-adjustable film position as in Cinemeccanica, Christie, etc.

This adjustment can be used on any projector, but you can get yourself out of range if you are not careful.

Posted by Peter Hall (Member # 695) on 06-07-2004, 09:42 AM:

I agree that a full conversion kit is ideal, but if you are looking for a low cost long term solution I'd stick with one of our (or indeed the ASL if cost is not an issue) lasers are a better fix than a Jaxlite.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 10-23-2004, 10:47 PM:

Can someone (many people) please post how you explain to theatre owners why a reverse scan reader conversion is better than a Jax Light solution, or vice versa.

Is there any point, given the cost differences (about 30%), in not using a Jax Light in a drive-in situation using FM stereo sound?

Posted by Peter Hall (Member # 695) on 10-24-2004, 05:19 AM:

Jaxlites hummmm. Tempted to quote a noise to signal ratio, rather than a signal to noise ratio. And they are maintainence intensive - to get the hum level down, you need to up the LED current, prematurely killing the LEDs.

Lasers are the next cheapest solution - we do a range that replaces the sound optic lens - response and noise are better than white light, and the more accurate focus gives crosstalk on a par with a basement reverse scan reader. Plus theres no preamp, so you are not 10 x as likely to pick up stray light or noise.

To be fair, there is another brand around (as Pete Naples correctly points out) however until recently these used a mirror and shone thru the existing optics lens, adding another variable to the set up and restricting performance to the capabilities of perhaps a 20 year old slit lens - they give you cyan compatibility but no real performance gain.

Next up are third party basement reader kits - Kelmar, Component Engineering, BACP - all good as far as I've seen, some better than others. And manufacturers kits - we love the Kinoton and like the Cinemec, plus Kinoton have recently introduced a range of lower cost upgrade kits.

We'd say that if Digital is an option or even a possiblility then go for the basement kit. If not then go for a laser - they last longer than LEDs and sound as good.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 10-24-2004, 06:03 AM:

Peter, to say that the ACL Laser which mounts in the exciter lamp socket and uses a 45º mirror gives "no real performance gain" is not true in my experience. If correctly aligned (and I'll grant you that can be a pain in posterior to achieve) they give better HF response (due to the laser beam being narrower than the slit in the optic) and decreased L-R cross-talk. Microphony can be a problem, as can slit illumination, but I say again, if they are correctly installed and aligned then these things cease to be an issue. Reliability has been excellent. With the bulk the major operators in the UK using them they can't be far wrong!
The new design from ACL Walter Voight is undoubtedly superior, the combined optic/laser is the way forward. Installation time is very short, and performance is superb. I fitted one on a Westar South of the border recently, HF flat to 16kHz with next to no slit loss Eq applied, cross talk un measureable on the scope, slit illumination flat to 1dB using Cat566/Arta 80, loads of signal level so S/N is excellent. Indistinguishable from CE or Kelmar reverse scan IMHO.
I've got 4 of them to fit in Glasgow soon, two are upgrades to get non-redeveloped track compatibility and two are, surprisingly enough, replacements for Jax lights which are not performing to the customers requirements...

Anyone want some used Jax lights? There's quite a few available in these parts....

Posted by Peter Hall (Member # 695) on 10-25-2004, 02:07 AM:

Hummmmmmmmm.. will think it over !

HOw's the Grovesnor ?

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 10-25-2004, 09:17 AM:

It trudges along, not doing great business I hear, which is a bit sad.

Go on, make me an offer for these Jax lights, you know you wanna!

There's 2 for Monee, 2 for DP70 and 2 for DP75.

Posted by Peter Hall (Member # 695) on 10-25-2004, 11:46 AM:

OK - Drinks on me next time you're down this way - but you have to throw in the Monee projectors too !

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-25-2004, 11:54 AM:

Actually I have had good luck with the Jaxlights in DP70 with new slits as well

Posted by Michael Cunningham (Member # 210) on 10-25-2004, 12:53 PM:

While the BACP conversion to the Norelco looks quite nice and functional, I noticed a missing component from the "original" sound gear. Where is the little magnification viewport that let you see the illumination playing across the solar cell? I know, I know, it wasn't exactly a real useful feature, but it had "cool" value. Does the LED not provide enough visible light to show up through such a lens?

- Mike

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 10-25-2004, 01:24 PM:

Peter, I'll hold you to that, not that I venture that far South of the border unless absiolutely necessary, and I'll gladly throw the Monee projectors anywhere, as long as it's OUT of any of my booths!

Gord, out of all the Jaxlights I've removed, I would agree with you they worked best on the DP70, this is simply because the cell is shrouded well away from any stray light. Still not a good enough solution though.

Michael, I think (although I'm not sure) that the BACP is a rather different design from the original DP70 rep set, and as such doesn't use any of the original optics, far less the original SVA cell.

Posted by Lindsay Morris (Member # 1430) on 10-31-2004, 07:21 PM:

In the process of getting my Eprad Starlet ready for the coming summer season and using an ACL Laser unit rather than a Jaxlight opting for an ACL laser as it seemed to offer the best virtual "drop in" ease of installation.
IE. Take out the old exciter and central base connection, slide the ACL unit down into where the exciter base used to be with the DC leads for the laser coming out of the old lampholder base and lock it in place as you would do with a tungsten lamp.

In my case I have powered the ACL unit from the existing exciter supply with a small add on board mounted on the exciter lamp bracket with a 3 terminal regulator set at 3.6v output.
IF I ever want to go back to Tungsten is just a matter of sliding the laser assembly out and sliding the tungsten lamp in.
The suppliers of the ACL unit did not recommend using the exciter supply but I reasoned that it is:
(a) Already there.
(b) Well filtered.
(c) The 3 terminal regs LM 317 are very reliable and precise in maintaining their set voltage.
(d) A 5v Zener across the line to the laser unit could act as a safety crowbar and take the reg into shutdown mode IF the volts crept up over 4.5 if a fault occurred.
(e) I could still simply use a tungsten lamp IF I ever had to.

Setting up of the ACL was easy, just adjust the laser height and azimuth by slackening the small locking screw in the tube that goes into the lampholder and once set carefully locking that into place.
I focussed the image onto a piece of white paper taped to the drum just as I do with a tungsten lamp setup/check.

Peter Naples noted that they take a bit of setting up and he is spot on here but once set in place are quite stable.

When running the Cyan loop Dolby levels on the Eprad, LED displays are almost exactly the same as if I ran the B&W Dolby test loop.
There is only a slight difference which equates to just on one FULL turn of the preamp 40 turn trim pots UP if running B&W after setting it for the Cyan loop.... Virtually NO Diffrence in level running the ACL laser with either Cyan or B&W test loops.
Did not seem to get anymore signal from either by altering the focus of the slit lens to "tweak" the focus for either type of track.

The actual output levels going to the power amps remain the same as the NR boards are doing their job and the Master Vol control stays at the same point.
So in theory when I run a Cyan print there will be no perceivable difference between that or Hi magenta or B&W... but I have not been able to get hold of a HiMag Dolby test loop.. doubt whether one actually exists... so do not really know re Hi Magenta stuff... just guessing there.

My tests have shown NO virtual difference between a Cyan loop and a B&W loop when using the ACL Laser unit.
However, go back to the old tungsten lamp with Cyan and I really have to wind up the proj preamps to achieve the correct Dolby level on the Format board (all 4 LEDs lit).
There is certainly not enough grunt left in the Master Vol control to lift the Cyan level up if using a tungsten lamp.
Normally I run the Eprad on 5 and probably could raise the power amp faders to compensate but the hum and noise certainly comes up.

But with redlight and Cyan the tone is very clean.

So for those hesitating on going to a red reader I would not wait around too much longer as I reckon you will be in big piles of poo if you cop a Cyan print out of the blue (pun intended)as most systems will probably not be able to compensate for the certainly lower level.
As a "techie" type Indie I did not want the problem of having to stuff about madly trying to source a red light unit after I had experienced a disaster with a Cyan print.
I wanted to be ready so that we had a smooth transistion and the ACL laser may have cost me $900(Aus) but I am now confident that Cyan will not give me any grief whatsoever.
It did hurt paying out that $900 but it is now done and, as an operating expense, that can be written off against the business tax... same as a new Xenon. Just gotta do it to survive.
As well the BXR 10V 5amp exciters are almost impossible to source here in OZ.

As to the comment in the thread "Disney to Switch to Cyan" made by Mark Marshall. I do not think that other countries are pointing the finger at America as being the villains in this switch to Cyan.
In Australia it really has been the lack of Cyan test loops so that one could evaluate just what was going to happen and that would be where I think the industry has fallen down as to my knowledge there is still NOT supplies of the combined Dolby tone and Pink Noise available in Cyan.
It seems totally logical to me that if "the industry moguls" wanted a switch to a new system they should have had all this test film out there and readily available from day ONE not 3 or 4 years down the track as it seems to be in OZ and I suspect in many other countries as well.
In that way various industry folk could try and see EXACTLY for themselves what they were in for IF they did not switch to red light sources when Cyan became widespread.
Then the concept would have sold itself and possibly demand for Red readers gone up and hopefully the prices came down due to volume sales.

The best thing ATLAB did in Oz as to hand out samples of the Cyan track at the Movie Convention 2 years ago and that got a few of us really going.. others are still fence sitting hoping it is all a "furphy" and will go away. It won't [Big Grin]

Lindsay

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-31-2004, 08:24 PM:

quote: Michael Cunningham
While the BACP conversion to the Norelco looks quite nice and functional, I noticed a missing component from the "original" sound gear. Where is the little magnification viewport that let you see the illumination playing across the solar cell?

Michael,
That area of the sound head casting is machined away in order to attach a plate with a mount for the scanner itself. The BACP is really the best route to upgrading the DP-70's analog sound reproducer. I've done close to 30 of these since they became available. The view window was fine back in the mono days but not sufficient for aligning stereo. Note that we also split the lay on lateral guide rioller and spring load it so there is no weave of the track as its being scanned.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by James Falloon (Member # 1933) on 11-01-2004, 02:31 AM:

Ok, I've got a question for the film Gods, could somebody please suggest what would be the best option for our two gaumont kalee gk37 projectors. I know that they are old, but the damn things just keep on going. Is there something that will fit, or is cyan the final nail in the coffin for these old girls. I'm not sure what sound heads they are so I posted a pic.

Any advise much appreciated

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 11-01-2004, 08:47 AM:

There are quite a few GK37 projectors in operation in Brazil, both on existing pedestal or remounted to new consoles. Most have been outfitted with either Component Engineering readers and custom brackets for the LED or laser set-ups...it can be done.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-01-2004, 07:00 PM:

Here's a picture of a BACP unit installed in the basement of a Simplex projector:

Posted by Edward Jurich (Member # 1787) on 11-02-2004, 09:17 AM:

Noticed I had posted a repeat of what someone else posted.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 11-02-2004, 02:16 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
Here's a picture of a BACP unit installed in the basement of a Simplex projector

Is the power to the LED connected?

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-02-2004, 06:14 PM:

Yes. However, the photo was taken when the projector was not turned on or threaded. I have another photo of the projector running, but all you see of the BACP unit in the basement is a red light down there in the dark.

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 11-04-2004, 07:32 PM:

James Falloon
Component Engineering makes a unit for the Kalee. Contact them at 1-206-284-9171. They are in Seattle Wa. USA

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-04-2004, 08:45 PM:

I heard they threw out alot of the old/infrequently sold stuff when the new heads of state took over... glad they still have those thogh as the Kalee is a great projector.

Mark

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 11-05-2004, 06:04 PM:

In reply to Michael about the DP70 a few days back, the view window was one of my favorite features too, but the new reader kit RSTR2000 KA uses a lens/solar cell combination which eliminates the original brass slit so there is no longer an image to look at. I toyed with the idea of reusing the cover complete with view lens, but the mirror bracket has to be sawed off to clear the new lens and I did not have the heart to destroy the part. On the KA-2 version, the entire area is milled away in favor of a whole new reader chassis.

BACP is also introducing a new model for modern Meopta projectors.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-06-2004, 11:16 AM:

and when will the bauer U2 version be available [Smile]

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 11-08-2004, 01:53 PM:

As soon as someone sends me a representative sample to build by.

Seriously, it's not in my plans

Posted by Frank Jerkic (Member # 2446) on 11-08-2004, 10:05 PM:

how did James Falloon get on with his cyan readers? Just as a matter of intrest I would be intrested in the price differance between Component Engineering cyan reader and the BACP to suit the Kalee and or Century

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 11-08-2004, 10:58 PM:

Frank,

BACP does not make a Kalee version and more's the pity, but Component does and one vendor is enough to cover the ones in service.

I do make the Century and I believe I am about $50 more than Component Engineering. Features = money.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-08-2004, 11:25 PM:

Don't forget Sam about the increased speed at which your systems install. Since most systems have an outside power supply to feed both the reader and the LED...with a BACP, one powers the LED from the reader so only a simple link wire is needed to get to the LED. Century provides the wire-way on the back side and soundheads like the Simplex can often just be run directly on the film side.

When doing these things en-masse, time = money so does your design really cost more? Then again, there is the wall-wart...which I suppose, has its advantage when exporting to other countries.

Steve

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 11-09-2004, 08:17 AM:

ACL Walter Voight Laser also uses a wall wart with zero problems. My problem is them lossing from the outlet so we usually clamp them in with a bracket.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-09-2004, 06:12 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Don't forget Sam about the increased speed at which your systems install.

Steve's right... the extra 50 bucks is more than made up for in the quicker installation time of the BACP readers.... While the Vought thingy is in interesting idea I will stick with the best...

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Jean-Michel Grin (Member # 1360) on 11-09-2004, 07:45 PM:

Hi Everyone !

For upgrading all of our sounheads we decided to use Component Engineering kits.
Past Year I've equiped 13 simplex 5 Star sounhead with this system. The job was easy...
Recently we had to make the same job on a Monee projector sounhead, but no kit was alvaible for that.
The solution (thanks To Film-Tech forum's) was to use a kit designed for a Century Soundhead.
Look at hte picture below:

It's look nice..don't You mean ?

Bye, and sorry for my still weak English !

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 11-09-2004, 08:30 PM:

A complement and an endorsement of sorts from Steve. I feel the ground shaking.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-09-2004, 09:16 PM:

I think that has to due with the state you live in! Either that or I had a bit too much gas [Wink]

Steve

Posted by James Falloon (Member # 1933) on 11-11-2004, 04:49 AM:

Sorry Frank I haven't got my A into G and done anything about it. I don't officially work at that location any more but I'll keep you posted on what management want to do and how it turns out. They are still running carbon arcs so really cyan dye tracks is swinging it in favor of replacing the whole plant.