Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Motiograph Projector question

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Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 06-07-2004, 10:30 PM:

I am considering getting back into film in a year or two and was pondering the idea of resurecting a motiograph AA and was curious about parts availiabilty, reliability, etc.

Or should I consider a simplex or at least going back with my favorite, yep a brenkert?

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-07-2004, 10:34 PM:

Gordon is the Guru on Moshees.... [Smile]

He'll clue you in. [Smile]

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 06-07-2004, 11:20 PM:

Motiographs are good machines. [Smile]

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-07-2004, 11:40 PM:

The AA and AAA was probably the best american made projector end of discussion [Big Grin]

Posted by Jeff Stricker (Member # 224) on 06-08-2004, 05:11 AM:

Sam, a lot of the Motios were in drive-ins. Therefore be sure the one you are considering doesn't have a DI shutter (as mine had). Finding a replacement won't be easy.

My AA was just something to tinker with. Still like my BX-40's and BX-60 the best!

Jeff

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-08-2004, 05:34 AM:

Yup! Brenkerts rock!!! [Big Grin]

Moshee was an excellent machine as Gord mentioned...but parts are very expensive and hard to find.

The only real bad thing I can say about the moshee was that stupid terrible inefficient hunk of crap they called a barrel shutter. [puke]

Maybe I am biased, Gord. [Big Grin]

I serviced those things. Maybe I didn't have the magic touch like Gordon has, but I dreaded trying to time those darn things. Other than that, they were not very difficult to work on. Extremely reliable with a picture as steady as a rock-just like the Simplex E-7 and a good running Brenkert.

Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 06-08-2004, 07:04 AM:

Thanks guys [thumbsup]

P.S. I hope all of you guys are well and wish all of you the best [beer]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-08-2004, 07:32 AM:

"The AA and AAA was probably the best american made projector end of discussion"

I don't quite agree with that assumption. They were good machines, very reliable, but had too many gears pairs and developed too much lost motion when they did start to wear out. LOTS AMD LOTS OF BALL BEARINGS IN THEM! There was also a strange flicker in the beast that people that worked for Motiograph admitted could not be gotten rid of..... I don't think they ever knew what actually caused it. This flicker was not present in the older Model K. The model 7500 sound reproducer is a piece of junk compared to the 4 star Simplex or RCA 9030.

Best American projector........ There is none. All american made projectors had some major problem or major disadvantage with them one way or another and still do to this day. The best are still the older European made machines of which some parts or sections of American machines were vague copies.

BTW: There are no new parts available fomr Wolk for any Motiographs any longer. You probably ought to stick with a BX-60, a Century, or an X-L. There are still some new parts available for Brenkert from Wolk. Parts for the others are available from multiple sources.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 06-08-2004, 09:56 AM:

John Eickhof had tons of NOS Motiograph parts.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-08-2004, 10:22 AM:

There is a company in India who makes cams stars and sprockets for motiograph havent tried them and can't seem to find the flyer I had for them at the moment

The flicker issue was caused by the different speed of light cutoff of the opposing edges of the barrel shutter The larger the barrel the bigger the difference expecially with lamphouse with a wide entry cone
The K could not accept many of the faster lamphouses so it wasn't an issue

The Vic10 and the Ernamann 8 and 9 also exhibited the same effect with certain lamphouses

Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 06-08-2004, 03:02 PM:

I'd pick a Motiograph over any other machine made then or now. Besides what Gordon mentioned there are enough of them around to come up with spare parts. But it's not like the thing will fall apart on you. Properly maintained they will outlast you. The Motio always gave me the smoothest picture of any brand and I credit the barrel shutter for that. It wouldn't hurt to have a spare machine ready to go.

Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 06-08-2004, 04:55 PM:

One reason I am considering Moshee (?) is due to the looks. I think the thing looks cool. By the way, will a AA bolt up to a 9030 sound head?

Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 06-08-2004, 05:27 PM:

Yes, it will Sam. You have to get the drive gear for it to replace the chain drive sprocket. It fits right into the same drive shaft slot. The nice thing about the Motiograph is that you don't need to invest in an oil well to keep it running. The ball bearings are not that difficult to replace and the gear train is simple to pull apart .Those big red gear caps look really cool, too. I've got a completely redone AA and a box 'o parts from another. I've only run it up once, but it was rock solid. I agree that they're beautiful machines and, like you, I'm a die-hard Brenkert fan.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-08-2004, 05:56 PM:

Is anyone actually running Motiographs in a theatre? I've never seen them in use, though lots of theatres still have their Motiograph bases. Brenkerts seem to be more popular and I run Enarcs once a month or so.

As most people here know, I'm a Century fan, but I'd love to have just one night to run a full-blown Brenkert booth, complete with "streamlined" magazines, etc. I agree that Motiographs look pretty spiffy as well.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 06-08-2004, 06:54 PM:

I ran these a lot and my best friend (now out of the business) was a huge fan of these. We had endless arguments about them.

The picture was rock steady and every pad roller and everything else had some sort of vernier adjustment. Very intricate and very pretty.

However, I've never seen a Motiograph without travel ghost, due to the lost motion Mark mentioned.

Even without filed out shutters they had ghost. You just couldn't see it well in a drive-in.

The original AA actually had double barrel shutters. The inner barrel was eliminated as the bearings kept failing due to heat from the light cone.

There was also a Motiograph Drive-In base, which was heavy duty and somewhat Deco in design and meant for an upward projection angle. Went well with Ashcraft lamps.

Then there was the Motiograph Miraphonic(sp) sound.

All this makes me sound even older than I am.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-08-2004, 09:10 PM:

Well there was also the Motiograph Hall Lamphouse that was the basis for the later strong mighty ninety

The SH7500 was a good soundhead and the motiopenthouse was well thought out product

never had any travel ghost on my motios

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 06-08-2004, 09:39 PM:

The Portland Playhouse in Portland, MI is running changeover with a pair of Motio AAA with exciter and stereo cell in the Mirrophonic sound heads. The machines are chain driven from the sound head.

Each has ORC 1000 lamphouses which are left on during the entire show.

Sound is from EPRAD Starscope center/surround decoder with JBL center speaker.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 06-08-2004, 10:38 PM:

The 99 Drive-In and twin indoor cinemas in Newberg, OR runs on Motiographs... singles w/Swords in the indoors and a changeover pair in the drive-in.

The Preview Theatre, where we go for many trade screenings in Seattle, has a changeover pair... 7500s for analog and a CP650... all of which work just fine.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-08-2004, 10:44 PM:

I think the Moshee's are the most ugliest machine that was ever created. It looks like a block of crap with a hole in the front and an elephant must have sat on the top of the casting.

Scott, as far as I know, there is a single mama and papa house on Bainbridge Island (Across the water slightly northwest of Seattle.) The old Strand Theater in Manitowoc, Wisconsin was equipped with Motiographs when I was a teen-ager. I think Mark changed them out when Don upgraded to multi-plex operation.

I had to get him on the screen sometime ago...the 7500 blew a motor. Bearings froze up.

Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 06-08-2004, 10:49 PM:

C'mom Paul, don't hold back. Tell us what you really think.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-08-2004, 10:50 PM:

Robert, they are just flat butt-ugly. [Smile]

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 06-08-2004, 11:54 PM:

Look at the booth pictures of the Chehalis Theater in Chehalis, Wash. for a picture of an operating Motiograph AA. The Skyline Drive-in theater in Shelton, Wash still runs a pair of Motiograph SH-7500 with mono solar cell and 1940 RCA exciter lamp power supply.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-09-2004, 09:09 AM:

I always thought the motiograph AAA with penthouse and SH7500 and big magazines and the motiohall lamphouse look stylish. Not to the level of the big GK21 Kit but still impressive and very quiet running.
Also if it has any perfs left on it they will play it unlike many other machines out there. I have evn run nitrate on them that was so shrunken the perfs were visable on the screen and the machine never even hicuped

Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 06-09-2004, 04:57 PM:

So whats the problem with the sh1000 sound heads?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-10-2004, 09:30 AM:

There was nothing wrong with the SH1000 simplex soundhead
In fact I found no complaints with the Motiograph/western SH7500/TA7500 soundhead
They start very fast which a 3ohm 200watt resistor cures nicely [Big Grin]

Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 06-10-2004, 05:02 PM:

I was in error in asking about the sound head thinking that a Motiograph used a SH1000, but apparently I meant SH 7500. [Big Grin]

Anyway, can these things be made to handle cyan prints as I am sure I will get some by the time I get back into film?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-10-2004, 07:42 PM:

Kelmar has a reverse scan reader for them

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 06-11-2004, 01:54 AM:

The SH 7500 is almost indestrucable. As Gordon says Kelmar makes a reader for this. Sound quality is actually pretty good. The film does weave back and forth on the drum a bit but no real problem.

The only reason I did not do a reader for this was due to the fact that earlier versions had a cast in bulkhead between the exciter chamber and the film , meaning I could not put the reader body in in one piece.

Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 06-11-2004, 06:54 AM:

Cool beans guys,
now, I have seen the pictures that Ken referred to above but I was wondering if anybody has a moshee that he could get some close up photos all around so I can get a better look.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 06-11-2004, 10:27 AM:

Sam,

I assume your tag line at the bottom of your posts refer to a line spoken by Slim Pickens in "Rancho Deluxe". Correct?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-11-2004, 11:00 AM:

Only if Rancho Deluxe = Blazing Saddles.

Steve

Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 06-11-2004, 04:56 PM:

Hey Sam,
No its from one of my favorite movies (BLAZING SADDLES) [Big Grin]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-11-2004, 06:13 PM:

Ahhhh, I am just in fomr a theatre in Idaho with 5 of them amnd all need alot of work. Mainly pad rollers, and the felt lay on roller(Long unavailable of course) part of the lateral guide roller assy. all need to be replaced. They are scuffing the SRD track so badly that SRD is non-readable. Were they my machines I would retire them.... these 5 machines have seen millions, perhaps billions of feet of film to say the least.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 06-11-2004, 06:45 PM:

I stand corrected. Rancho Deluxe has Slip Pickens and Elizibeth Ashley, playing her usual slutty role and he as s supposedly senile detective. Great fun for those who have not seen it.

Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 06-11-2004, 08:13 PM:

Sam

"Slip" Pickens....

I love it LOL! [thumbsup]

Or is this a new guy...and not Slim Pickens?

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 06-11-2004, 08:26 PM:

It's SLIM Pickens... my ex-wife's cousin. Met him many times at "family" gatherings.

"...Dancing around like a bunch of Kansas City Faggots!" [beer]

>>> Phil

Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 06-11-2004, 09:26 PM:

And Phil would admit to relations with Slim Pickens....LOL [Big Grin]

Favorite Slim Pickens roles:

"1941", and

"Blazing Saddles"

And I suppose "Slim" supplies Phil with his costumes...LOL! [Big Grin]

new name:

Slip'N'Slim Pickens!!!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-11-2004, 09:45 PM:

Ok Phil,

Walter Brenan lived next door to my Dads cousin... thats gotta count here somewhat [thumbsup]

.

Mark

Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 06-11-2004, 10:47 PM:

What about the aperture plates, (scope, Flat)? Are those things availiable?

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 06-11-2004, 11:53 PM:

Oh that! Let's not forget Dr. Stangelove for Slim Pickens roles.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-12-2004, 07:45 AM:

No, definately lets not leave out Dr. Strangelove...

"A fella could have a pretty good time in Vegas with all that stuff."

Steve

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-12-2004, 09:11 AM:

in limited supply
A metal shop can punch them out that is what I did for the ones up here

Posted by Jeff Stricker (Member # 224) on 06-12-2004, 12:30 PM:

I made aperature plates from some 0.10 thick flat aluminum. Just lots of filing and elbow grease! [Wink]

Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 06-12-2004, 08:03 PM:

Them Moshee run on grease right?
What kind of motor does the sound head use?
Maybe I should stick with my First love (BRENKERT).
If so I hope someone on this forum will have and hang on to a 4 point pedestal like I had along with a 9030 sound head and bx60, 80, or 100 for at the most two years or till I can pay for them and pick them up.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 06-12-2004, 10:34 PM:

The motor is a very garden variety GE on a standard 48 or 56 style frame with rubber couplings on the cradle. It's hooked to the input shaft with a rubber coupling that occasionally shears.

It starts very fast. If you use the Motiograph magazines (which are extra deep so you can run bent reels) the take up clutch is atrocious and used to break film on startup with some regularity.

A lot of operators used to take off the lower pad roller on the sound head sprocket and wrap the film around the entire sprocket intead of forming an isolalation loop because when the takep bit, it would tear out the sprocket holes all the way up to the loop.

Ah, such fond memories.

Posted by Bob Koch (Member # 1062) on 06-12-2004, 11:48 PM:

I have to agree with Sam on this Motiogrief stuff. The post war stuff[AAA AA'] was strickly crap.As a parody for Will Rogers saying,he never met a man he did`nt like, I, like Sam, have to say I never saw a Motiograph without travel ghost. It was so apparent in the trade, the 1940 Model K sales brochure refered to this as "soft vignetting" of the projected image. The early Motiographs, Model "H" "HU" "F`s" and the K were beautifully made and the machining was great, even at that time,when hand fitting and lapping of intermittents, et al,were the norm. Those aforementioned models would run like sewing machines until 15 minutes before they fell on the floor.The worst thing about these Motiographs was the barrel shutter and the "u" joints that drove them. You had to raise the back half of the projector case to thread it, and because of this,you could`nt get any arc lamp[Peerless Magnarc, Brenkert Enarc, Ashcraft "C"] closer than 36-7 " from the aperture plate when the working distance of those lamps reflectors was no greater than 34"; a huge loss of illumination.
One time about 50 years ago I had a booth with Model K`s and Brenkert Enarcs in the location of Adam Martin`s Esquire Imax. With a collusion between the projectionist and myself we sent one of the "K"`s out for an overhaul and replaced it with a BX 60and just for fun threw in a 31 1/2" reflector in the Enarc. You should have seen the lite difference on the changeovers.But then as now, the exhibitor reaction was predictable. Don`t accept the improvement; "get the
"K" back so we can be as we were before"
Always hated the post war Motiogrief, too many gears between the movement and the shutter, and all those New Departure hexagonal ball bearings

Posted by Jeff Stricker (Member # 224) on 06-13-2004, 07:31 AM:

Sam, for what it's worth my Motio AA head is sitting on a shelf in the garage. (BTW: I notice the effects of gear wear and slop on the AA as mentioned by Mark G. in an earlier post [thumbsdown]

)

The BX-40's and BX-60 are the machines I use. They're old but still run as smooth as a "pickle seeder" (to quote my farmer buddy) [thumbsup]

Posted by Paul Trimboli (Member # 1509) on 06-13-2004, 08:10 AM:

Sam I am guessing you sold you setup you had in your screening room, must of missed something. What happened to your film tower? Do you still have it? Do you still want the motors off it if you are not using it?

Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 06-13-2004, 10:11 AM:

I had lost my job and I guess I lost my mind after that and sold my whole setup. I deeply regret that now.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-13-2004, 07:48 PM:

I never considerd the AA or AAA crap well engineered is more accurate term

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-13-2004, 08:36 PM:

"I never considerd the AA or AAA crap well engineered is more accurate term"

I don't agree that a projector with "that many" gear pairs is well engineered at all..... over engineered would be a better term. Over engineered is just as bad as under engineered!

Perhaps we should all just agree that Motios had their day, but that day is now long over..... Good riddens to them!

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Bob Koch (Member # 1062) on 06-13-2004, 10:26 PM:

Gordon;
Well engneered, even in my salad day`s was never a term applied to Motiograph.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 06-13-2004, 10:55 PM:

How about elegantly designed? Doesn't mean it gets you across the street. Sort of like a Maserati.

Frank Lloyd Wright's houses all leaked you know.

Posted by Jeff Stricker (Member # 224) on 06-21-2004, 07:58 AM:

Here's Motiograph's latest attempt to "simplify" their mechanism...

[ 06-21-2004, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: Jeff Stricker ]

Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 06-21-2004, 09:32 AM:

where?

Posted by Jon Miller (Member # 163) on 06-21-2004, 07:05 PM:

WTF?!?! [Eek!]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-21-2004, 07:06 PM:

Jeff,
That IS the prototype of the AA [Eek!]

!!

Mark

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 06-21-2004, 07:06 PM:

..and that's their 16mm projector....

>>> Phil

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-21-2004, 10:47 PM:

No mark that is the Maverick projector

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-21-2004, 11:20 PM:

Well, some guy by the last name of Maverick musta designed it, thats for sure!

Mark

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-22-2004, 01:41 AM:

That picture of that contraption posted by Jeff reminded me of the old Navy-Issue Portable DeVry that belonged in the dumpster.

That's why it was portable...so a shore-based projectionist could place it in the Dumpster before he went home at night, or a sea-going projectionist could "throw it over the side" at the conclusion of the nightly movie on board ship. [Big Grin]

Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 06-23-2004, 08:04 PM:

Looks like the innards to Phil's mind [Big Grin]

Back to the subject though, I wish I had room in my soon to be screening room for two projectors as I would love to run change over. As for what projector I will go back with it will probably be a Brenkert again or if I can find it I might go with a Christie.
How bout that for a change?

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 06-24-2004, 10:12 PM:

quote: Sam Hunter
Looks like the innards to Phil's mind

Gosh Sam, that's pretty close. Only I have a screw loose. [Wink]

>>> Phil

Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 06-24-2004, 10:15 PM:

You are a loose one for a screw [sex]

Posted by Steve Wilson (Member # 2411) on 09-30-2004, 07:53 PM:

Hi all, I am new to this board, but been lurking for a long time. I received an email today from Kelmar that it should have LED Readers for the Motiograph SH7500 by the end of October. I had checked all summer and they were not sure that they would even make anymore due to some high priced manufactuing problems with the needed bracket for the LED. I do not know if this unit is only for the Motiograph with the removeable bulkhead or not. I would not wait to long too purchase these units as there are not a lot of demand each time they run out of stock. Hope this helps!

Posted by Cody Martin (Member # 2523) on 09-30-2004, 08:15 PM:

Hey-

I'm currently rebuilding my Motiograph, well finishing up now, and am in need of a sound cell. I was wondering if any of you guys with a Motiograph may have an old one.

Any help would be appreciated,

Cody

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 09-30-2004, 11:03 PM:

Steve:

Component Engineering has a reverse scan LED unit (a version of the ASR-40) for the Motiograph SH-7500 and it's in stock. I don't think you need to carve up the soundhead to install it like the Kelmar.

[ 10-01-2004, 12:54 AM: Message edited by: Ken Layton ]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-01-2004, 12:04 AM:

I don't think any Motiograph is worth sticking a reverse scanner into. Aside from the poor lateral guide design of the SH-7500 the installation of them into an SH-7500 is can be a real pain in the ass. The results you obtain will in the long run be pretty marginal. I've installed quite a few of the Kelmars but with the lack of spare parts for that projector being available any gain would be somewhat questionable. This might be a better place to consider using a JAX Light, or getting an SH-1000 to replace the SH-7500. The SH-1000/Model A or AA combination is really much better.

Cody, If you call the office on Monday when I'm back (and off tape delay) I will look for a cell for you. We have at least several of them laying around in various junk boxes. 801-355-1250

Mark @ CLACO
Live On Vacation!! (Via tape Delay)

Posted by Steve Wilson (Member # 2411) on 10-01-2004, 07:18 PM:

Hi Ken and Mark,

I have a Motiograph Stand that is beautiful. With it, I run the Motiograph SH7500 with a Century/Cinerama projector. That hard part is changing a sound head that would fit the stand. Expenses, I think its kind tit for tat on this trying to make things fit. While, the SH7500 has a parts problem, a person could keep a few around as they are near give away prices when you can find them. I am new in the business with a very tight budget, almost non-existant. This I felt was the best way to go at the moment. Now that you know more about my situation, you may have some other ideas that might help me. I need all the education that I can get. Thanks in advance for any further comments.

Posted by Steve Wilson (Member # 2411) on 10-02-2004, 11:44 AM:

The SH7500 that I have has a removable bulk head! Thanks

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-02-2004, 10:18 PM:

The main problem lies with the lay on roller and the felt center of it. There are no more felt centers and the width between the sides of the lateral guide are really critical for proper stereo decoding. I would bet that yours are worn in both regards. The sprocket also tends to wear out on these sound heads as well because its also the hold back. If your sprocket is not hooked on the hold back sode of the teeth you are very lucky! At CLACO we do have a few bins of new Motio parts but nothing for the 7500 except for the motor coupling and some moono and stereo cells. You would do much better with a used Simplex SH-1000 sound head or an RCA 9030. Parts are available for both of these and they are much better sound heads to begin with.... they can also be had VERY cheaply if you look around. They can be adapted to the Motio base with the correct adaptor block.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 10-03-2004, 12:56 AM:

about all the projectors that were made here in Brazil have a felt-center roller and many of the US made projectors (mostly RCA/Brenkert and Simplex) when needed, had the rubber roller replaced by a felt one made locally. I have replaced many of these felt rollers by new ones,either bought ready from a 3rd party or then made by myself.they're not very hard to do but attention when cutting the felt is extremely important. same apply to reassembling the roller along with the guides.also a good quality felt makes a huge difference.it takes some time to find the right kind of felt butt hen when you buy it, you'll have a lot of felt for several rollers