Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Simplex mag. penthouse, help!

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Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 06-13-2004, 04:02 AM:

Simplex (IPC) XL mag penthouse model SH-1025.
How on earth did these mount to a projector head? There are plates on both top and bottom, are these adaptor plates? The top plate attaches with 4 small screws and has holes for standard reel arm/kelmar bracket attatchment. HOWEVER, the lower portion which should mount to the projector head has only holes for 4 small screws, the "adaptor plate" also, there are no holes which correspond to the standard mounting holes for reel arms.

Did old projectors have more holes in the casting for these penthouses to attatch to or were there different types of reel arms that used 4 small screws back then??

Due to the strange shape, if you want to put a Kelmar cleaner on top you'd have to stack brackets! [Mad]

(btw, yes i have the mag head, but it's not installed. Yes, it's a bit dirty, haven't cleaned it yet)

The last two pictures are the holes in question, and the adaptor plate, the face showing is the side that mounts agains the penthouse casting. The one large hole is just that, a hole, no threads.
Anyone have manuals for this model or other 35mm only mag heads? [Confused]

Danny
.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 06-13-2004, 04:33 AM:

Both of my SH-1025's have the 4-hole pattern and mount directly to the top of my 1986 Simplex PR-1014 using those 4 holes without any adaptor.

You must have weird projector like a Pro 35 or something... [evil]

>>> Phil

[ 06-13-2004, 05:57 AM: Message edited by: Phil Hill ]

Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 06-13-2004, 04:49 AM:

quote: Phil Hill
You must have weird projector like a Pro 35 or something...

You know it. THanks for the info. btw, I have no plans of putting it on the Pro 35 anyway. [thumbsup]

So, Simplexes have extra holes, now i'm curious... besides my strange projector, do all other brands have extra holes? I just can't find pics of projector tops in the warehouse,haha.

Danny

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 06-13-2004, 05:32 AM:

That penthouse looks like the ones that I mounted on a pair of Westar (think Century) projectors, but they didn't have that detatchable plate/casting under them, I had to make up something to mount them, and get the heads in the correct position. I also had to mount them in a slightly odd position, but that was nothing to do with the projectors, but something in the projection box, part of the operating gear for the fire shutters, that was in the way. This was in someone's home cinema, I know souh places don't normally have fire shutters, neither do most public cinemas in this country for that matter, but this one does. Please do not ask any 'awkward' questions at that point.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-13-2004, 09:54 AM:

The adapter plate under your pentouse is for mounting it on an E7 and will also work on a century if you make the upper loop slightly oversize.
If you can find one the motiograph penthouse is the best bet as it had a movable roller inside it to offset the height for sync to make it universal Westrex also had this feature

Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 06-13-2004, 12:35 PM:

Thanks for all the info guys.

So, anyone have manuals for any of these? Now i'm really curious to see detailed pics/diagrams of the other brands that Gordon mentioned.

manuals, please! [Confused]

danny

Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 06-13-2004, 01:19 PM:

Hi Dan

Do you want or need that E-7 mounting bracket? If not, then I would not mind having it for my E-7 restoration project.

Although my E-7 really has no $$ value, I am just having fun restoring this machine as my own personal toy and show-piece.

After a lot of looking...I even managed to find a complete front-shutter set-up...which was also used on Supers.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-13-2004, 04:04 PM:

Later Simplex XLs do indeed have all of the holes...to this day even.

Older XLs do need the appropriate "top plate" on the projector and the penthouse or you can drill and tap some 3/8" holes for standard reel arms right onto the penthouse (done it).

I know we have the exploded view diagrams on the soundhead but I don't know if it lists all of the various plates. Note, older XLs needed the correct top plate just to mount the upper magazine/reel arm.

Steve

Posted by Joshua Waaland (Member # 287) on 11-15-2004, 12:24 AM:

Danny,

Thanks for posting this. I brought up this same topic a few months ago. I have the same problem mounting to my projector. I have the older XL's and Simplex penthouses. I tried to detach the upper magazine and add the penthouse but noticed a bracket missing also. The bottom seemed to line up okay but needed a bracket in the hole where the film passed and the upper needed something to add my magazines back on. It looks as if the brackets that are on top of yours are exactly what I need to add my magazines back on. I also would really like to get my hands on a manual. I called Strong and asked for one and they faxed me a manual for a 35/70mm picture head?!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-16-2004, 07:34 PM:

Toss that penthhouse and look around for an old ampex or motiograph. they are much better penthouses and mount to any standard projector. Never cared for that particuluar penthouse... way too tight. The Ampex and Motio's also had much better damping of the tight loop.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-16-2004, 08:51 PM:

I've set up both the Ampex and the Simplex penthouses...I prefer the Simplex...much better control over tension and head position.

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-17-2004, 09:19 PM:

Thats ok Steve you can have the Simplex... Both the Ampex and Motio have much better designed rotary stabilizers. The larger diameter of both models flywheels is a big advantage with thick mag film. I've always thought the Simplex flywheels were a bit whimpy for mag striped film. I can't ever remember having any problems setting up with any of the three mentioned in this thread within their limits, but the Magnasync comes to mind as a bit difficult unit. By the way, the Ampex head mount is the same one used on the JJ, 35/70 XL, and tens of thousands of dubbers and is very flexible in its adjustments and very sturdy once locked down.... pretty much the idustry standard moun t and is still widely used today.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-18-2004, 08:32 AM:

Ah Mark yes it is and I wish Jack Dimmers was alive today to back me up but according to him and my findings too...it is also one of the biggest causes of poorly aligned heads. One has a hard time setting azimuth without messing up the Zenith since all three points are interractive.

On the Simplex penthouse, one can set azimuth, zenith and tilt independantly. Furthermore, one can compensate for the pull of gravity precisely.

I have no clue as to what you are talkling about on the Simplex stabilizers...their flywheels were quite massive and certainly were up to the job of 35mm magnetic.

About the only feature I liked about the Ampex penthouse was that when one opened the pads, the spocket locked for easy threading and tension setting.

The Simplex 35/70 did not use the same adjustments as the Ampex though (nor the same as the 35mm mag penthouse). The 35mm head went with the two screw tetter-totter menthod. Simple and one couldn't screw up the Zenith. For the 70mm head it was on a round base that was kinda novel. You could adjust azimuth, head-depth, rotation...all without affecting the other adjustments. Again, better than the Ampex/Century approach. I don't know if the original Simplex 35/70 penthouses had Mu-metal sheilds but the Strong bread penthouses did not and that was a definite negative for it. Way too many ways to pick up magnetic fields...especially at changeover time.

Steve

Posted by Joshua Waaland (Member # 287) on 11-18-2004, 07:01 PM:

Dan,

If you ever want to part with those brackets let me know I will buy them from you. Thanks.

Josh

Posted by Paul Vollmers (Member # 927) on 11-19-2004, 09:24 AM:

I have a Simplex E7.
I also have a Ampex Mag sound unit.
Will the mag unit just mount to the top of the projection head or do I need a mounting bracket?
It sure is heavey too.

Paul--

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 01-17-2009, 10:41 PM:

It has been 1520 days since the last post.

Posted by Joshua Waaland (Member # 287) on 01-17-2009, 10:41 PM:

So does anyone have the manual for the Simplex Mag Head yet?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-18-2009, 10:05 AM:

Joshua,

Here you will find the parts manual on the Simplex XL systems...including the penthouses. Note, this a largish download. But the scan is quite good and bookmarked.

I don't believe the adapter plates are in it as the transition items (things that mate various parts) are something Simplex seemingly has always hid! Often they would show up in a Operation Manual rather than in a parts manual. Furthermore, you have to find the right manual. For instance, the pully/gear to mate an XL up to a optical soundhead like the SH-1012 or even the 5-star...which manual do those parts show up in?

Steve

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-18-2009, 12:01 PM:

On the issue of Simplex Penthouses
was there a difference to the threading and parts of the original Simplex Penthouse that had the curved top that the magazine sat into and the square box from Strong

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 01-18-2009, 12:59 PM:

I guess I got lucky.
I don't recall having any problems mounting the Simplex
Mag Penthouse to my personal XL several years ago.

Four holes in the penhouse and projector castings lined up perfectly.

FRONT

REAR

My installation also includes a steam-pressure guage!
(Just for fun [Big Grin]

)

Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 4255) on 01-18-2009, 01:08 PM:

quote: Paul Vollmers
Will the mag unit just mount to the top of the projection head or do I need a mounting bracket?
It sure is heavey too.

You should see the flywheel in a Vic 8 70mm mag p/house, I'm surprised these things didn't pull the whole projector over!

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-18-2009, 02:09 PM:

Remember that the XL mag head and the XL always mated perfectly with each other. That mag head required adapter plates to fit anything else. We once had several XL mag head installed on Centurys. BTW: the path length had to accommodate the audio pre-delay to match audio with video; different for each projector. Louis

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-18-2009, 03:48 PM:

On a old black XL one needed a plate on top even to put a non XL magazine on

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 01-18-2009, 04:05 PM:

The circa 1972 Century SA in the biggest auditorium at the South Plains Cinema had one of these magnetic penthouses mounted on top.
The penthouse was removed in 1987 by Ben Kehe after we complained about scratching on the prints: He intentionally misthreaded the penthouse with a new trailer and compared it to the print and that's when we discovered one of the other booth people had been mis-threading through that penthouse. "You don't need that penthouse anyway."

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-18-2009, 08:47 PM:

(the little battery LED lantern hanging on the back of the penthouse adds an interesting touch to Jim's setup... [Big Grin]

)

It's great to see projectionists having fun with their trade...

-Monte

Posted by Joshua Waaland (Member # 287) on 01-18-2009, 10:26 PM:

Thanks for the link to that manual Steve. I have the old black XL's and they do not just mount to the mag heads. There is definitely a bracket missing. If I can get a part number then maybe I can look around for the brackets that I need. Hopefully some theater supply somewhere has a few of them laying around.

Posted by Dick Prather (Member # 1136) on 01-19-2009, 02:35 AM:

X-L mag heads come in two basic versions. A smaller one and the first ones made by GPL with sprocket shoes and the larger one with sprocket rollers. The roller heads were the most common. Both work fine. Most Portland theatres used X-L mag and I never had a problem with them.

These mag heads were made for X-L projectors and use a four screw pattern on top of the projector and the X-L upper magazine. All other combinations need adaptor plates both top and bottom. Even other Simplex models need adaptors. Simplex also did not have adjustable rollers for sound sync as most other mag heads did so adaptor height was critical. One needs the correct plate for your projector. Should be lots of these laying around.

If you are using a X-L upper magazine then you are all set or have a newer Simplex 35. Newer machines have both sets of holes on top. There were adaptor plates to convert the X-L four screw top to the standard two screw upper mounts. These are shown in the X-L manual for numbers.

Non X-L mag heads need an adaptor to convert the four hole mount to standard two screw or possible adaptor plate made for that mag head. X-L mag to Century projector needed one.

If memory serves:
Some Ampex heads also needed adaptors.
Westrex R9 mag heads used the same plug in clusters as the X-L.
Dick

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-19-2009, 02:35 PM:

There is the man with the complete answer! Louis

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-19-2009, 03:10 PM:

If the top of the penthouse does not have the standard 2-hole pattern (3/8")...then they can be added by merely drilling and tapping. Note, the standard Simplex XL top plate (P-1839) is not correct for the penthouses as it will interfere with the outer casing of the penthouse...however a hacksaw (band saw...etc) can make it work...but drilling/tapping is easier, in my opinion.

If I happen upon the proper top plate, I'll post it.

Steve