This is topic When do you open the curtains? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 06-22-2004, 05:17 PM:
 
I am fortunate to work at a theatre that has a working curtain (a traveler). However, I have gotten into a debate with the manager over the appropriate time to open the curtain. Since we rarely run any material before the feature, I usually open the curtain right when the studio logo comes on. Projectionists I have talked to gave me the impression that such timing was standard operating procedure. The roadshow booklets I have looked at tend to support this (found at The Widescreen Museum), except in cases where there was no studio logo.

However, the manager contends that projecting the logo on the curtain looks awkward, confuses the audience, and interferes with viewing the logo. I think that whether or not it looks awkward is a matter of personal taste, but in any case my goal is to be faithful to the historic industry practices. Thus, I want to find out what other projectionists' practices are (or in most cases, were) regarding the use of curtains. Do you wait for the logo to hit the curtain before opening it? Do you time the curtains so they are a third, or half of the way open when the logo hits? Do you open them entirely prior to the appearance of any image?

Also, have studios, producers, etc. ever made particular requests regarding the use of curtains?
 
Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 06-22-2004, 05:36 PM:
 
I usually did just as you're doing Chris--open up with whatever is at the head, and then open the traveller. That seems to be what I remember most operators doing too. The usual sequence I remember was:
Sometimes on roadshow releases, there would be instructions enclosed with the print detailing things like house light and curtain cue timings, and playback level and EQ for any overture tracks played with the curtain closed. One I specifically remember was the mid-70's 70mm re-release of Kubrick's 2001. We went to house lights at half at the beginning of the overture. There were additional cues for fading the house to black and opening the traveller, the idea being for the traveller to move while the house was completely dark. If the timing was perfect the stylized MGM logo would fade up just as the curtain cleared the full screen width (or height).
I know of other operators that liked to do it that way as their normal routine--have the curtain full open before the first frames hit the screen. In most cases it was whatever the operator or theatre manager thought best.
 
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-22-2004, 05:37 PM:
 
Interesting question. I usually hit the switch/button right when the douser opens, so that the screen becomes visible just as the first image fades in. At the end of the show, I start closing it so that the curtain stops moving just as the final image (credits, ratings band, etc.) fades out or cuts/scrolls to black. For repeated screenings of the same film, I add curtain cues (one-frame Clint Phare cues in the lower-right-hand corner) for when to start closing the curtain.

I should point out that I've mostly dealt with smaller theatres that have ~20-30-foot-wide screens. I'm not sure whether or not the timing changes in theatres with much larger screens, where the curtain takes longer to open or close completely.

Is this the "proper" procedure? I have no idea, but it seems to be common practice in most theatres that use curtains.

Edit: I use a modified version of Paul's method for dealing with house lights. In most theatres, I fade out the non-sync, dim house lights to half, then dim screen lights (one color at a time if multiple circuits), then start show/open curtain. House lights fade the rest of the way after trailers end.

Edit #2: I'm assuming manual operation here. If you have automation, there may be other factors which dictate when/how curtains/lights/music operate.
 
Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 06-22-2004, 05:40 PM:
 
The Muller's Willow Creek Theatre in Plymouth is the only theater in our chain to have screen curtains (it was originally Cineplex Odeon). They use waterfall curtains that open for the slide show and trailers, then close before the sound snipe and open once the snipe begins. It was confusing on my first visit, as it was for many people I've talked to about the theater, but it's a very formal effect after that.

[Frown] Wishing I had curtains at Lakeville.
 
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 06-22-2004, 05:48 PM:
 
I time it so that the curtain is about 1/3 open when the logo first hits the screen (this is a screening room and the screen = 18' on scope). One must take into account that logos aren't really designed with this in mind anymore but nevertheless it still looks very cool with most of them. The dimmer is going down just before and during this period and it's a nice effect.
 
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-22-2004, 07:56 PM:
 
When I was running Carbon Arc houses, I threw the curtain switch when the film company logo faded out. Very similar to what Steve does or did.

It is my understanding this was normal procedure for union houses. Make it look professional. [Smile]
 
Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 06-22-2004, 10:54 PM:
 
Paul, do you mean you would keep the curtains closed while the studio logo was on?

I realize it would also be worthwhile to discuss closing out the show. Like Scott, I time the curtain so that it fully closes right at the end of the credits (I don't show the rating unless it's an older style and therefore of some historical interest). Usually I do this by memorizing a line/logo in the crawl, or if the credits are still, I figure out how many seconds to wait from when a certain slate appears. The only exception to the above would be movies with few or no credits, or surprise scenes at the end of the credits, in which case it's a judgment call as to how early to start closing the curtain.
 
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-22-2004, 11:52 PM:
 
Christopher, it depends on the actual movie and what studio made it, and how long the logo lasts. Several theaters I have worked at required the Title Curtain - if it looked good. The theater owner let that up to the projectionist if the projectionist thought it looked good. Some theaters also required the curtains to close at the end of the trailers or cartoon and re-open as soon as the logo faded out. In my travels, the theater owner was also a professional projectionist. Usually, (but not always) did I follow his footsteps. It was MY SHOW....and the bosses always let me do what I thought was appropiate.

One effect I can relate - there was an old operator that ran a movie where the start was a "yellow glow" in the middle of the screen that got bigger and bigger. He held the curtain and kept the fader retarted just until the device behind the yellow glow blew its horn. It was a fast curtain, and when he parted the curtain, a big steam locomotive popped out and scared the audience. But, the audience loved it. [Smile] [Smile]

In today's movies, if one uses the title curtain, it might look like crap. This is where showmanship comes in. There is no set rule on how or what to do. If it looks nice and pleasing to the audience, go for it. If it does not, bag it.

There are other things I did in the later years of projection during the "Dirty Harry" movies. Remember the movie where the dog positioned it's rear end towards the screen and passed gas? Well, I just happened to be at the projection station waiting for that the nights I ran it, and I advaned the fader to 10 for that few seconds. I had the audience practically rolling in the aisles laughing their butts off. [Smile]

In addition to that, I used to do hand douser changeovers from cartoons to movies. I nice smooth transition sure looks better than a "WHAM". At times, I did the superimposed change-overs as well.

Lots of operators have the curtain slam shut as soon as the credits end. Nothing wrong with that. The reason is in the next paragraph.

Many times the credits look good on a curtain that is closed, depending on how much the foot lights are set, what kind of curtain it is, etc. I could be wrong, but I think much of that practice has been discontinued because of the closing music, etc. Closing the curtain on that type of ending might be very annoying to the customers.

The rule of thumb I used was basically "eye appeal" and watching the customer's reaction. Rarely did I ever have a complaint lodged directly to me or to the management. As for today (if I had curtains) I would never close them on the credits.
 
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 06-23-2004, 02:19 AM:
 
If the programme began with commercials, trailers or anything else that wasn't the feature, I would usually follow Scott's example and try and time the first projected image to appear while the screen tabs were in motion. If there weren't - i.e. it was straight into the feature - I would start as follows:

The idea behind this is that audiences now expect ads and trailers, so that in an arthouse venue which sometimes or always doesn't show them, you want to give them the message that it's time to start paying attention to what's on the screen.
 
Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 06-23-2004, 02:22 AM:
 
Basically, the traditional way has been to conform to the presentation ideal of never showing a blank screen at the beginning & end of the show. I think it has something to do with reinforcing the suspension of disbelief that you're seeing "a show". If there's no blank screen examined before a picture, the screen doesn't really register with the audience.

That translates to when the picture first hits the curtain, the curtain quickly goes out. If whatever's first has sound before picture, the house lights go down, that quiets the audience & they become anticipatory & receptive to the beginning of the 'production', sound plays with curtain closed, suspense is generated in *exactly* the way it was intended by the filmmaker in having sound alone before picture, then when the picture first hits the curtain, the curtain goes out as usual. Also, it not only de-emphasizes the hardware behind the illusion, but adds suspense & excitement with watching & interpreting all the action of appearance of picture then sudden motion of the curtain.

If the movie ends with the end of photography followed by a title roll, when the titles appear, the curtain is slowly brought in after the fact that 'here are the end credits' has registered. It's actually cool watching white on black titles on a colored, textured drape.

The end of the show is more difficult to strategize if there's a surprise scene after the credits or action continues under them. Safest is to just wait until black at the end (by then the credits have blown the whole suspension of disbelief by de-emphasizing the technology). I've seen some good shows where a projectionist is attentive to the content, has a sensitivity to how audience manipulation works & has been able to bring in the curtain if the action is "dead" in a short scene after the titles just in time to close on black.

Steve Kraus' approach of opening partially & hitting the logo would work for folks more accustomed to home video experience & seeing movies in theaters with material preceding the feature & no title curtain, resulting in an expectation of always fully seeing the logo. He's also in a special case as he's mentioned before, running a screening room where the people with a piece of the logo want to see it fully. Otherwise, it could look like the curtain is late. Like opening after the picture hits, I think some audience expectation due to a familiarity with seeing it a particular way factors into his audience.
 
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-23-2004, 02:49 AM:
 
William, you are, indeed, a showman and a true professional. Congratulations. I think the way you said it is superb. What you said was basically what I was hinting, but you did a much better job than I did on conveying that idea. [Smile] [Smile] [beer]

It would be a pleasure to watch YOUR SHOW!

It is truly a shame how showmanship and professionalism has taken a back seat to "Get 'em in like a herd of cows, collect their money, and roust them out as fast as possible before the credits are even over" type philosophy most major corporations and some mamma and papa organizations seemed to have acquired through the years. It would be a cold day in a hot place before I would ever sit and watch a movie in some Cinemaorgazmasmellyplex theater for that reason.

At the Strand Theater in Manitowoc, Wisconsin (even on the 9-cent days for the 12-year-old punks like me) the projectionist always used his footlights, faders, and curtains just like he would have done for a ritzie presentation for the local snobs. (And, there were plenty of them in Manitowoc.)
 
Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 06-23-2004, 02:49 AM:
 
chris, i think you're correct in that your way is the way it was probably generally done in the past. but i still prefer your manager's way.

i really don't buy the idea that a blank screen is poison. i think every frame of the film should be seen, reflected off a surface designed for just that. it doesn't bother me too much if you're opening on the studio logo, but by the time the title card pops up i don't want to be straining to read in the folds of a curtain. same for the credits. if there are words on the screen, they should be legible.

take the film "walkabout". at the very end of the film a quote or phrase appears. i wish i knew what it said, as i couldn't read it over the rippling fabric. plus it might have been in french or something.

but what do i know? i also like radio stations that don't fade the end of one song into the next, don't talk over the intros, and aren't afraid to leave a little "dead air" here and there. i think it shows respect for the material.

carl
 
Posted by Michael Cunningham (Member # 210) on 06-23-2004, 03:39 AM:
 
From everything I've ever heard or read on this subject, showing blank screen used to be considered as big a sin as dead air on the radio. Times change though, and people don't expect this sort of thing any more. Probably due in large part to the proliferation of curtainless multiplexes.

- Mike
 
Posted by Jim Spohn (Member # 1547) on 06-23-2004, 09:59 AM:
 
At the Granada, our Grand Drape is dark and a projected picture reflects poorly so we start the curtain at the same as we open the dowser. The curtain takes about 6 seconds to open so the timing for the logo is about right. We NEVER let the audience see a blank screen. I use a computer controlled opening in which I press a button when I start the motor and the house-lights, Grand Drape and stage and footlights follow a set timed sequence for opening. A different sequence for closing. Our standard opening is:
1)Take out entrance music on slow fade.
2)Start house light dim sequence.
3)Halfway thru house dim, open dowser and start curtain (stage and footlights dim as curtain opens)
The idea is to make the opening of the movie a show in it's self(smooth and connected), our audiences love it. .... Jim Spohn
 
Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 06-23-2004, 10:01 AM:
 
quote: Carl Martin
i think every frame of the film should be seen, reflected off a surface designed for just that.
Carl, I think that was my manager's point exactly. And obviously, modern audiences are used to that from curtain-less multiplexes and television. However, I tend to think that waiting for the curtain to open all the way before shooting an image onto the screen means an awful lot of dead time, depending on how fast it moves.

Still, from a practical standpoint, obscuring text is probably not a good idea (case in point: the disclaimer at the beginning of "Dr Strangelove", although I don't recall having a problem reading it while the curtain opened).
 
Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 06-23-2004, 11:43 AM:
 
My training reflected much of what Paul and William have posted here. There was a "reluctance to leave a screen blank" ethic that drilled in back then. Somehow, it was seen as a "part of the art" to know your system so well that the show would fade out just as the curtains either mated or fully dropped. I'll admit that's the way I felt about it back then. The effect worked well in theatres that had gold curtains. One theatre I worked in also had a deep red curtain in front of the gold one (sorry... been so long I don't remember the formal names). We'd open that one fully, then hit the picture & open the gold one.

Paul, you're the only other person I've heard mention being able to dissolve between the projectors by using the hand dowsers. I also did that at the Wheel-In Motor Movie ... ummmm.... a few years ago!
 
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-23-2004, 01:22 PM:
 
You guys are great -- it is good to see that showmen still actually fret over this stuff which very unfortunately seems to be scoffed at and even ridiculed by the multiplex generation. No matter the slight variations in method mentioned above, the main point is that a curtain was always used, even in the underbelly, third run neighborhood theatres. All the grind houses on 42nd Street (Manhattan) used curtains even as their death knell was tolling and everything else was falling apart around them. And yes, it was considered anathema for an audience to see a "naked" screen, as the Manager's Manual at the Interstate Theatre chain (Texas) called it (circa 1965). I wish I had saved that manual -- it gave and entire chapter to "curtain protocol," and detailed the way the curtain, house and curtain warmer lights were to be used. And it made it clear what a major infraction it would be (heads would roll) if the protocol was ignored (managers and assistant managers quaked in their boots over this as it was made quite clear that heads would roll if this was not followed). In the State Theatre in Austin where I first worked, the curtain motor broke at one point and the manager went bizzerk. He assigned not one, but two ushers to be at the curtain cable back stage at least 15min before a curtain pull was needed to insure that the pull got done. He told me that there was a street manager, a kind of quality control guy from the main office, who went from theatre to theatre in the chain to check on everything. He could walk in at any time unannounced, and if he saw the curtain protocol being ignored or, godforbid, if he spotted a naked screen staring back at him, it meant Really Big Trouble. So our manager checked on the whereabouts of these two ushers every hour making sure they remembered they had curtain duty. This all may sound a bit over the top to us today, but I can assure you, these old showmen were quite serious about the feel and the look of the show. Of course multiplexes put an end to all that silliness.

The Manual emphasized exactly what you all are saying -- the curtain covers the technology and aids in the suspension of disbelief. Just as in live theatre, the curtain covers the stagehands setting up the set before the play opens. The cinema curtain does much the same thing. It is also used as a marker between the preshow gack and the main feature. In fact, a pause was specified between the curtain close and the main feature, kind of a way to increase anticipation in the audience and to signify that something of import was about to happen. It was during that interval that the mask would be reset to either wide screen or wider screen (scope) depending on the feature AR. The cartoon/attraction reel was run Academy, so even if you were running a 1.66 feature, the audience still saw the picture get wider for the feature. Of course this was predicated on a common height image; common width or reduced height scope was unheard of in those days and I am sure would be considered a lot more unacceptable than seeing a naked screen.

Yes, the color of the curtain is a guiding factor. A dark or patterned curtain is not conducive to projecting anything on it. In the a handful of the flagship theatres you would find a double curtain the Grand Curtain, usually a waterfall curtain, and a screen curtain, usually a split traveler. Radio City Music Hall, which has relegated film programs only to the occasional special events, still uses double curtains. The Grand Curtain flys exposing the screen curtain which unlike the main curtain is designed for sound as well as picture being projected on it.

Screen curtains designed for film presentation were almost always of a light color (ours is a cream-white satin) so projecting the studio logo on it would not be an issue as long as the curtain opened fast enough so that the logo would remain on the screen long enough for it to be viewed completely (curtain opened full). Our proscenium is 45ft width and the Fox logo frame will remain on the screen long enough for the curtain to completely clear the mask while the frame is still being projected if it is a 1.85 image. For scope, it doesn't get completely opened before the logo frame changes (or crossfades to the CinemaScope frame in the older titles) but it opens about to a 2:1 AR which for all practical purposes lets the logo frame almost totally visible. On the other hand, almost all theatres now (even back then) splice on their own custom logo snip before the studio logo, so if the curtain does cover the first few seconds of the opening image, it is not the actual start of the film.

Then there is the issue of the sound. If the curtain was designed specifically as a screen curtain, it should be a fabric that is nearly transparant acoustically. If it is some other fabric like standard velour, it will block the opening logo music and in such a case a decision will have to be made as to what is more offensive -- allowing a naked screen or allowing muffed sound. I've seen main curtains not designed for sound transparency or even for clean image projection (dark colors, distracting designs, scallops, etc.) being opened before any picture is projected and only after the curtain clears most of the screen does the projectionist project the first frame. If there are the proper curtain warmers, at least the screen will be bathed in color, and not just a white blank. But here the instincts of a good showman will dictate what works best for his presentation.

I work an auditorium built within the last 10 years and it has no screen curtain, but we do all we can to prevent it from looking naked. We use motion lights that project continually moving splashes of light and now that we have a fairly powerful video projector, we project those "visualizations" that are incorporated in the media players like RealPlayer, Windows Media Player and WinAmp that sync to the preshow music. We also have two mirror ball units that project specs of light on the screen. It's not a curtain, but it's not a totally blank screen either.
 
Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 06-23-2004, 02:10 PM:
 
I used to open the dowser with the logo image on the curtain, so the MGM lion would seem to approach through the opening curtain. That beloved technicolor animal logo would elicit cheers and applause, especially from youngsters.

When flat trailers preceded scope trailers or feature, I used to open the masking on the trailer logo to gradually reveal the coming treat.

Unless the management posted specific curtain policy, I would use my judgement of good showmanship in such matters.
 
Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 06-23-2004, 02:48 PM:
 
When I was a projectionist it was my proceedure to run the logo on the travel curtain. It usually meant having the sound fader a point or two higher until the curtain opened.

The most beautiful set of curtains I ever ran were at the UA Theatre in Pomona, California. My proceedure was:

1. Fade houselights and open waterfall main curtain as lights fade. Start incoming machine when curtain is about half way up.

2. Hit screen with logo (loved those 20th Century Fox logos) and open travel curtain when logo fades unless it was also a CinemaScope logo then I would open the travel curtain just ahead of the CinemaScope logo so it would be fully opened by the time that logo ended and people would be "awed" by the width of the screen. Of course the travel curtain has to be fast enough to do that. But these days, unless you're running a classic house, you don't see CinemaScope logos anymore.
 
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-23-2004, 05:07 PM:
 
Michael said:

quote: Michael Cunningham
From everything I've ever heard or read on this subject, showing blank screen used to be considered as big a sin as dead air on the radio. Times change though, and people don't expect this sort of thing any more. Probably due in large part to the proliferation of curtainless multiplexes.
YUP!
 
Posted by Dan Harris (Member # 1759) on 06-23-2004, 05:55 PM:
 
We have the tabs/curtains close for a small interval between the trailer reel and the feature, so a typical show goes something like:

- Fade house lights to half
- Start to drop spotlights and start projector
- Open tabs and kill spotlights so they are half open when the first frame hits the screen. Fade non-sync and switch to SRD with dowser open. House lights remain on half during trailers.
- Let the automation get the interval shutdown, and change lenses etc.

Then when staring the feature:

- Fade houselights completely
- Fade spotlights to half
- Start projector. Open tabs and fade spotlights completely at the first frame of the BBFC logo.
- Fade non-sync out over the BBFC logo. Switch to SRD at the first studio logo.

At the end of the feature, houselights come upto half over the end credits, if no action at the end, then (automation pulsed at exactly 20' from the end in the large screens) the tabs close and spotlights fade up to coincide with the last frame.

It looks really good. Blue and Magenta spotlights look very metallic against the curtain, and look very impressive. Unfortunately our new screens under construction aren't having curtains due to pre-show slide advertising. Damn!

Dan
 
Posted by Ray Kaufman (Member # 2351) on 06-23-2004, 06:29 PM:
 
Dan, sorry to read you're losing those curtains. It still could've worked as the ads and previews could start on curtain closed or in, (more on 'in' in a moment.) and then closing them to open again on the feature's logo, if one.

We are an old fashioned, movie palace and still try and start as originally intended, with the curtains closed. When this house first opened, there were three sets of curtains, The Grand, Main and Title curtains. All were split and could either travel or fly. In addition, we had three-color footlights and border lights which are fun to change and literally dance color throughout the auditorium.

Part of the build-up to the Feature Presentation was all the things that could and should be done with the curtains. Let's say there are a series of 4 trailers. The Grand could open with the Theatre's snipe beginning moving into the trailers. The Main and Title are flown up and out. As the previews end, the Grand stays open but the main flys in. Behind it, the Title is brought in, unseen by the audience. When the feature starts, the main travels open revealing the logo as it's projected and then the Title rapidly flies out. Picture starts.

On ending the show, when the credits, if any, roll and assuming they're white on black background, now's the time to have fun with the foot and border lights as they'll reflect whatever color is thrown on the screen, not affecting the letter clarity at all. When either the MPAA slug comes up or The End, then the Title curtain flies in one last time.

And for the manager mentioned in the beginning of this topic, Ya needs to come to L.A. and visit the start of any El Capitan screening to see the audience reaction to the light and curtain show prior to the movie. Even though it's automation, it never fails to get a round of applause. It's called showmanship and is one of the few pleasures left, setting oneself apart from the ho-hum rest.

Oh yeah, one last point. There's a reason it's called a Title curtain.
 
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-23-2004, 09:13 PM:
 
Well, you now know why I would happily run a carbon arc booth with two projectors and a raft of switches and rhostats in front of me.

At my age, I would do it free. Then I could once again proudly say, "It is MY SHOW!"
 
Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 06-24-2004, 01:44 AM:
 
For houses with just one curtain that isn't acoustically transparent, if the film opens with just music or sound effects at the top with the picture under the logo, I think it's no problem opening the curtain as the picture hits the screen. The fanfare not only increases in volume as the curtains open, but 'blooms' with the highs filling out. It is effective as a top of show device.

If it's not music, the type of dialog placed there is likely not to be much of a problem either in the maximum of 10 seconds that it takes to get the curtain out. Audiences are easily more sensitive to intelligibility of dialog than a *lot* of picture defects, & there'll be a few seconds of increased attentiveness & effort to decode the information which will actually work for pulling them into the show in that process in the short period that rapidly decreases in the need to expend that effort.

The whole lights down, sound up, opening the curtain with the picture idea anyway is a manipulative process of quickly sequential new occurrences designed to immediately draw the individuals' attention from inner thoughts or the surroundings & conduct their awareness entirely into the show. It's fast & effective & successful, & what the audience member wants.

I think you can see the result of not using such a system to quickly & completely direct the individual's attention entirely into the show at theaters with no curtain & long waits before the feature. In those cases, even after the show starts, you're still settling & trying to get into the picture.

The top of the show is one of the most worried-over, worked-over, & highly constructed points of ANY show: live, filmed, reproduced from film, whatever. If it's ineffective, they're not grabbed immediately, & you've got to battle harder & longer to get their heads into the show. During that wasted time, the audience is struggling, & not feeling very satisfied with the results of what they came (& paid) to see.
 
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-24-2004, 12:41 PM:
 
quote: Ray Kaufman
The Grand could open with the Theatre's snipe beginning moving into the trailers. The Main and Title are flown up and out. As the previews end, the Grand stays open but the main flys in. Behind it, the Title is brought in, unseen by the audience. When the feature starts, the main travels open revealing the logo as it's projected and then the Title rapidly flies out. Picture starts.
Ray, you have THREE curtains? That's a freakin projectionist's wet dream.

People, I ask you, who needs viagra when a guy can get to do THIS?!!
 
Posted by John Spooner (Member # 1565) on 06-24-2004, 01:09 PM:
 
Dear Paul.
at one of our theatres we have retained the 2 projector and carbon arc system.
When I operate at that theatre I feel that I have REALLY been showing pctures.
Best regards.
John Spooner. South Oz.
-
 
Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 06-24-2004, 03:16 PM:
 
Hey John! Great looking machine. What brand is it?
 
Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 06-24-2004, 03:43 PM:
 
That's a Kalee Robert, either a 20 or a 21, I can't see which from the photo. The arc is a Kalee President. They were made by Kershaw of Leeds, who were later taken over by Rank, and closed in 1958.
 
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-24-2004, 03:44 PM:
 
That is a nice-looking machine, but isn't it "cheating" to use 6000' reels? [Smile]

Paul--you should move. I know a couple of theatres that would happily take you up on your offer! [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-24-2004, 03:48 PM:
 
Scott, if I was not glued down in this place, I probably would move. [Big Grin]

But the Pacific Northwest is beautiful. Nice temps, stuff like that. Doesn't get too cold, and doesn't get too hot.
 
Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 06-24-2004, 03:58 PM:
 
Scott, that Kalee does look rather odd without it's spoolboxes, but it's in nice condition.

Kalee projectors normally had 2000 foot boxes, some of them were round, some a rather odd not quiite round, not quite square shape, there's a 20 like this in the foyer of the Pictureville cinema in Bradford, where the Cinerama setup is. Bradford is very close to Leeds, where the things were built.

At least six Kalee projectors were made with 6000 foot boxes. Four of them were horiizontal Viistavision machines, and the other two were a pair of 20s that were installed at the Natiional Film Theatre at one time. They later moved to NFT3, a small screening room, which later became an office, and the machines went to the Projected Picture Trust. They were unusual in that that they had couplings for a mechanical interlock, a metal bar, and that was the reason for the 6000 foot boxes, they were used for 3-D. They must have been amongst the first machines to take spools of this size, as this was about the time that the regulations started to be relaxed, under certain circumstances, to allow them.

I haven't seen any other Kalee machiines so equipped, though there are some now operating with towers or platters.
 
Posted by Ray Kaufman (Member # 2351) on 06-24-2004, 04:22 PM:
 
Frank, Nope. HAD three curtains, just two now and not always both, but still a dream. But seriously, even with only one plus lights, (and that's sometimes key,) a lot can be done. Hell, I remember times back in the good old '80's when we'd play b'tween the 3 color border and foots to Glenn Miller's "In The Mood," done manually with the 70 years old resistance dimmer board on stage. (and yes Paul, it still then had the hydraulic, piston driven remotes.) Took two people on the stage, but never failed to get an applause. More like a Roar. Just hum the tune and you'll get an idea of it with up on the red, kick in the amber, pull back the red slowly and sudden on with the blue. Repeat as needed. That's what I call kick-ass.

The whole idea is that coming to the theatre is the event. The film is just a part of the ENTIRE experience. Of course, it makes a difference when the theatre has a certain "wow" factor of it's own. But showmanship, deluxe like screenings can still be part of the mix and truly set one apart from the herd. Can't you see it? Don't ya think so?
 
Posted by David M. Dorn (Member # 2298) on 06-24-2004, 07:57 PM:
 
Ray,

Please post some pictures of the GRAND!!!

Next time I am on the West Coast I'll mmake sure I come to see your presentation.

Do y0u have a website?
 
Posted by John Spooner (Member # 1565) on 06-25-2004, 01:38 PM:
 
Dear Bob, Stephen, Scott.
The projector is a Kalee 21. Apart from the Christie arms and an electronic motor start up board it is original.
The large spools were a common conversion here in Adelaide.
As a matter of interest to anyone who knows Adelaide, this projector and its partner came from the now closed Metro drive-in at Marion.
Secondly, I may have posted this pic before, it is of a Kalee 37, still running regularly at a Drive-in north of Adelaide, the steadiness of the image is remarkable. Note the original old Vari-morph cinemascope swing away lens.
Regards. John S.
-
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-25-2004, 02:49 PM:
 
quote: Christopher Seo
I have gotten into a debate with the manager over the appropriate time to open the curtain.
I won't get the popular vote for this, but remember unless you own the theater, if the owner or manager wants you to run the curtain a certain way, it's fine to have a discussion with him on your reasoning vs. his, but ultimately you need to do your job to the best of your ability while staying within the confines of what is desired from management/owner. It's not worth losing your job over something so petty as curtain timing. You're working at a cool place right now with great benefits. Please remember that before you push too hard. [Cool]

With that being said, my personal preference has always been to open the curtains as the first frame of the first preview hits the screen. In my case it would be a green band, since I don't go chopping those off trying to make my presentation look like a big screen tv. By the time the green band plays for several seconds, the curtains are *almost* out of the way of the picture and in all but one person's opinion, it looks very nice. The reverse is true for the end of the feature. The last frame of the rating band is projected just as the curtains touch. Again, the rating band helps to prevent the last bit of the end credits from being unreadable on the rippled traveler curtains from those people who DO like to read all of the credits, but still gives that showmanship. (Another benefit of showing the MPAA bands is to show off how marvelously clean my presentations are, because I always use plenty of extra head and tail leader...unlike theaters that belong in the "you suck" thread.)

Still in getting back to Chris' issue, the theater I am currently working at 2 nights a week has always ran curtains at the beginning and end of each performance. However there is one person who doesn't like them, the "money man" of the operation. I don't know if he just doesn't understand that it is good showmanship or if he really is bothered by the fact that "the customers aren't being entertained for that minute just before the feature begins" is truly the issue. Regardless, he expressed his desire for us to cease using the curtains. Well Chris, he's the man and that's what he wants. I made my pitch regarding keeping the curtains, but ultimately it's his call so I disconnected the curtain motors. Like I said, don't do something stupid like get yourself fired over something trivial like the timing on curtains. There are better things to get fired over. [Wink]
 
Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 06-25-2004, 03:24 PM:
 
It also used to be common practice if we ran a cartoon and the trailers before the feature to close the travel curtain at the end of the 'toon, raise the curtain (foot) lights, pause a couple of seconds and fade the curtain lights before hitting the screen with the feature logo, and then open it as I described above. All part of "showmanship" and the ambience of the theatre as it used to be. The Fox (Compton, California) also had a carbon arc effect machine that management wanted to use to splash vari-colored lighting around the screen and arch during the titles. Quite a feat considering I was also fading the houselights and stagelights with overhead levers while opening the curtain with a wall switch an starting the incoming machine. But I did it and it was quite a piece of "showmanship".
 
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-25-2004, 03:36 PM:
 
What is it with overhead rheostat dimmers? It sounds ideal, but I've never seen that sort of installation in person. Usually, the dimmer board in older theatres would be mounted on a side or rear wall of the booth and the rheostats themselves would be in a separate room, either behind or below the dimmer board itself.

Is the overhead placement a west-coast thing only? Or are the booths that I've seen just unusual?
 
Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 06-25-2004, 04:38 PM:
 
Don't know about overhead dimmers being a west coast thing or not, but the original Redrock Theatre here (single screen, way before it became a quad, then a six, then a 11-plex) had rheostat (or maybe autotransformer, I can't remember) dimmers installed that way. They were mounted right over the RH (#2) machine which allowed for access from either operating position.

The Toho La Brea in Los Angeles had an old resistance dimmer board that took up most of the righthand wall of the booth, a leftover from the days when that house also had a working stage.
 
Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 06-26-2004, 10:57 AM:
 
I'm lucky enough to work at a sub-run that used to be an old GCC, so we have curtains in The Big One [Wink]

IMHO, and I know I will get hollered at by the "showmen" of the era, but projecting any kind of image on top of the curtain looks tacky, and makes the audience think, "The idiot forgot to open the curtain before he started the show." and yes, people have complained about this. (Guess they wanted to see a GREEN band, not a green band with a reddish tint) We used to just hit START and let it go (curtain opens automatically when the changeover opens) but almost always, people would be looking up at the booth with confused faces when the picture hit the curtain.

Since we have screen lights, I go for this effect:
-Flip the curtain switch
-When the curtain is about 1/3 to 2/3 open, and doused in a nice red glow from the screen lights (this looks HELLA COOL), I start the automation.
-House lights dim slightly faster than screen lights, so the audience is darkened while the red lights softly fade off the screen. Applause ensues.
-Right when the curtain ends its travel and the screen is clear of all light, the changeover opens. [thumbsup]

It's a nice dramatic effect, and gives a taste of elegance to those who are so used to seeing the 2wenty, slides, or just a blank screen.

Here's a pic of the auditorium, and I promise I won't post any more until I assemble a picture tour [Wink]

-

(Note: Yeah, I know, screen lights are out on the right side. No one wants to climb way up there and fix them!)
=TMP=
 
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 06-26-2004, 02:37 PM:
 
How much nicer if the curtains would go all the way to the floor.
 
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-26-2004, 04:14 PM:
 
I noticed steve someone comment on the pattern of the curtains in your screening room I think they are cool
 
Posted by William T. Parr (Member # 677) on 06-26-2004, 04:33 PM:
 
I was lucky enough to escape the remodel with 2 out of 3 auditoriums keeping their curtains and being used. We have the first frame of the feature hit just as the curtains begin to open and are 2/3 closed when the lst frame hits. Unfortunatly this is a function of the Automation as if it were up to me I would have the curtains just touch as the last frame is projected.
 
Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 06-26-2004, 11:58 PM:
 
Steve -- Yeah, it would be nice. But that would mean the curtain would be closed over the exit doors. It's a little bit wider than the screen in Scope mode, and hangs a little below the masking.

It's strange running Flat movies in there. The curtain opens up to reveal the flat screen, and keeps going and going and going revealing nothing but black masking [Roll Eyes]

=TMP=
 
Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 06-27-2004, 12:54 AM:
 
I've seen theaters that program an intermediate stop for the curtain to prevent that from happening.

The Fox Charleston Plaza Mall theater here used to have the problem Thomas mentions. Gigantic curved red duvetyne curtain, intended for a Cinerama screen that was never installed, opening to reveal a fairly small flat screen when running in 1.85. 'Scope looked pretty good though. Top mask could be moved out to present 70mm on the full-width 'scope screen, but alas that theater never got to run a 70mm presentation.

Just to mention a couple of other curtain cues I remember for no particular reason:

Airport--Bonanza Hotel Theater (Walter Reade), Rancho High School Theater [Smile] . When I ran it, I played the Universal logo on the curtain. There was a long black interval after the logo where I'd open the curtain. No picture, just black with walla sound of a bustling airport terminal as the curtain opened. Just as the curtain reached full open you'd hear a flight announcement get called, then the picture faded up showing the terminal. Kinda neat.

Patton--Fox Charleston Plaza Mall (Fox, then GCC). Ran the entr'acte music with the curtain closed. The print had a cue mark in the lower right hand corner for dimming the house to black. They'd run this segment with the douser just cracked open enough to see that cue, then douse completely until first picture. Otherwise, the lamps put out enough light that even in film black with the house lights up, you'd see a faint 'scope rectangle on the curtain. The house faded with the end of the music. Curtain opened on first picture, a rotating shot of a forest canopy. It was a neat effect, the motion of the shot combined with the curtain opening.

Jonathan Livingston Seagull--Parkway Theater (Plitt). Timed the curtain close to coincide with the last frames of picture (a sunset at sea). Again, kinda neat to watch on that big D150 screen.
 
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-28-2004, 12:50 PM:
 
WOODSTOCK -- first 10 or 15min of the movie has a 1.37 image sitting in the middle of the scope screen, dialogue only is in mono. We play it with the masking in to 1.37, curtains set at intermediate (solving Thomas's too-much-black problem). At the point were monologue 1.37 image fades to black and the next image is 2.39, full width, on cue the mask and curtain open to reveal the full scope screen and the sound kicks in to full surround stereo with the CSN&Y "By the time we got to Woodstock" title song playing (punched up a coupla points louder than normal).

It always gets applause, and on two occasions, the crowd did the lit-cigarette-lighters-up-in-the-air-swaying-back-and-forth thing. Looking down from five stories at a crowd of 2000 doing that is quite a thrill for any projectionist, to say nothing of the accountant who sees every little speck of light as eight dollars at only 35% to Warners. [Wink]
 
Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 06-28-2004, 01:14 PM:
 
quote: Paul Mayer
Airport--Bonanza Hotel Theater (Walter Reade), Rancho High School Theater . When I ran it, I played the Universal logo on the curtain.
What was interesting about "Airport" was that some prints opened with the 30 second black with airport noise with the Universal logo only cming in at the end of the film (followed by the rating tag). Others had the Universal logo at the beginning with the crowd sounds under it, as Paul M. mentions.

I saw it in theatres both ways.
 
Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 06-28-2004, 07:25 PM:
 
We do about the same thing as Brad has outlined, completely automated with our TA-10. I also like to flick the changeover open, then as the first frame hits the gate, slowly open the hand dowser, disolving in the green band before the curtain opens. This does look really cool in my opinion. We also do a curtain call for several seconds after the prevues and before the feature.

Yes I agree that a naked screen, and dead air are terrible terrible sins, sure to banish you to hell for all eternity [evil]
Sadly I have commited both, but if your gonna screw up, screw up big. I managed to knock 6 stations off the air today [Smile]

Bear in mind, however, that putting on a good show and being true to the material are sometimes two different things. People fade and talk over the "ramps" in radio because it makes it sound tighter. The goal is to quit yakin' just as the lyrics begin, aka 'hitting the post'. When done right, it sounds very good and professional, also a throwback to the old days.

Josh
 
Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 06-28-2004, 07:37 PM:
 
quote: Josh Jones
I managed to knock 6 stations off the air today
You bait us and then don't tell how? JFC! How RUDE! I vote you Film-Tech's "Master Baiter"! [Razz]

>>> Phil
 
Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 06-28-2004, 07:51 PM:
 
one of the dj's for our country station came in to do an EAS weekly. The unit froze after sending the header, and didnt send the eom. I sat there with my thumb up my ass saying 'duh.....why aint there any sound outa this here speaker.' I eventually came to my senses and hit the cancel button. Audio was then restored.

Josh
 




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