Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 16mm xenon projector recommendations

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Posted by Alain LeTourneau (Member # 2175) on 07-02-2004, 11:18 PM:

There's a local college film society that is looking to replace their current 16mm projector.

Of the 1K and 2K xenon projectors listed below what can be found for less than $7000, and is easy to service and user friendly (for the novice).

Eiki 6100, 9100
Elmo LX-1100, LX-2200
Kinoton FP-16, FP-18

Are there anyother projectors in this price range that people would recommend?

Any and all assistance greatly appreciated.

Best,
Alain

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-03-2004, 06:14 AM:

I'm not up either on prices or availability of support in your part of the world (though you'd struggle to find a good one for the equivalent of $7k here), but of that lot I wouldn't hesitate to get an FP. Because they have a proper intermittent mechanism rather than a claw pulldown, the picture stability is incredible, even when running an element with quite significant shrinkage and/or perf damage. They are also insanely gentle to the film (and fine with both acetate and poly) and it's very easy to keep the film path clean. 6k spool capacity is standard, and a spring-loaded absorber at the end of the film path provides a smooth take-up, whatever the length of reel. They can easily be adapted for variable speed and a super 16 gate kit is available if needed.

I've used FPs for ages and they would be my first choice for any 16mm installation full stop, unless portability was essential. We have one in the unversity cinema and with a top-end print (e.g. a nice IB print), the slightly dimmer picture is the only way you can tell the difrerence from an average 35mm print. All the FPs I've used have both an optical and a magnetic pickup - I don't know if this comes as standard, but I've never seen a machine without both.

Posted by Peter Hall (Member # 695) on 07-03-2004, 09:00 AM:

Have to add my 5c worth - I agree the FP is the nicest on film and the most flexible however most would agree that it is a pig to lace - you need tiny fingers ! BTW, I have a hell of a good EIKI 6100 in stock (!!!!!!!!)

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-03-2004, 09:42 AM:

If it's the one I think it is, then yup, it's a nice one alright. The only problem would be the cost of shipping it from Herne Hill to Oregon...

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 07-03-2004, 02:56 PM:

The 6120 and 9120 projectors are intermittant-based as well.

--jhawk

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-03-2004, 03:51 PM:

Don't forget to check into parts and service availability. I recently had an interesting conversation with Tim Plew, who was one of the last 16mm service technicians for Eiki. In the US, some Eiki parts are still available, but there is some question as to how much longer this will remain the case. The company no longer manufactures new units and the US parts warehouse guys don't seem to be too excited about dealing with the 16mm stuff (which is apparently just a bother for them).

I assume that the situation with Kinoton is better, as they are still in the 16mm business, but I'd suggest confirming that before buying one of their machines.

Posted by Alain LeTourneau (Member # 2175) on 07-03-2004, 04:31 PM:

Couple things....

I've heard good things about FPs as well, but judging by what I've seen projected locally on an FP-18 I'd say its hit or miss. It seemed very unsteady and I believe this projector sees regular service.

It may be an issue with the operator though, I don't know for certain.

And FPs aren't cheap. Can I find a FP-16 or FP-18 for less than $7000?

I've heard good things about the Elmo LX-1100 and LX-2200 models handling shrunken film well. There's also a noise reduction system on the projector.

The Eiki 6100 I've heard does not deal with shrunken film very well and is difficult to adapt to variable speed? I don't know about the 6120 (Geneva model).

Appreicate the suggestions,

Alain

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-03-2004, 04:36 PM:

I'm only really familiar with the Eikis. The EX-6100 is OK (not great) with damaged film. It's about equal to the portable Eiki machines (Elmo portables seem happier with damaged film, so I would assume that their larger machines are as well).

The EX-6100 is 24fps-only out of the box. I don't know what it takes to convert it to variable speed.

I should add that the Kinoton FP-38E 16/35 machine is absolutely beautiful if the budget is available.

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 07-03-2004, 05:55 PM:

Alain, I can assure you the FP18 delivers a rock-steady image second to none. The one you saw must have a problem; perhaps something simple like excessive wear on the skate or incorrect loop size.

Question : does the college have filmmaking equipment? The main rationale for buying a 16mm machine today must surely be to screen student work (there are now digital sound alternatives to the traditional optical track, which means 16mm isn't "dead" yet!).

AFAIK Kinoton will still supply parts for the FP18. I'm not so sure about the FP16, but they do have many similarities.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-03-2004, 06:43 PM:

From people I've spoken to I gather that in the US, Boston Light & Sound provide full-scale Kinoton parts and service backup. Admittedly that's as far away from Oregon as York is from Boston, but at least you've got an active parts franchise in the same country. As a general rule, my experience with Kinoton has been that parts and availablity is very reliable, though not at all cheap.

Agreed entirely with Brian - any FP which is not delivering rock-steady picture stability either (i) has not been laced up correctly, (ii) has a fault, or (iii) is running a print which is knackered beyond redemption. Agreed also with Peter that lacing up is fiddly and needs a bit of practice. Any projectionist coming new to one should practice a fair bit with some scrap film to start with. There are some danger points in the film path to keep an eye out for, such as the film chafing the top of the exciter lamp housing as it exits the scanning drum. But, IMHO, that fiddliness is a tiny price to pay for the on-screen quality which these projectors are capable of.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-04-2004, 12:30 PM:

I've worked with a lot of FP-16/18 or in their 26/28 varients. They certainly are not my favorite machine. They can certainly put out an outstanding picture. Properly tweeked, their sound is okay. The skates wear out way too fast. The aperture plates are a nightmare. There are two metal rollers in the sound dampening system that must be proerly damped with a "potion" to really get them to sound decent...presuming you have good preamps and they didn't have a preamp worth a flip until about 1993...towards the end of the FP-18's existance. The method of framing also changes the belt tension around the shutter...which is critical since at the motor pinion, there is only something like one or two teeth engauged of the gear belt. The FP-16/18 never really worked well with the american 6000' reel. The european reel was much lighter and worked much better with the tensioning systems.

On the upside, it is a professional unit and a left-hand thread. As such it can be butted up against the #2 35mm projector and take up less floor space. As for light sources...again like 35mm you have various lamphouses and lamp sizes to work with.

On the used market...remember, in addition to the projector, make sure you are getting a lamphouse and rectifier that will drive the lamp size you need.

As to parts supply...we haven't had any problems. Kinoton America does an excellent job of stocking parts for Kinoton products. For someone in Oregon...KA can do a much better job than coming directly from Germany...KA can have the part their the next morning. And, as far as ordering parts...one is no more than 3-hours difference (Continental US) from KA...much more likey to be able to talk to someone and get the part out.

Of the other units mentioned...we've had GREAT results from Elmo. The LX-2200 (2000-watts) and LX-1100 (1000-watts) are great performers. From an audience perspective, the only edge I'd give the Kinoton offerings are in the focus department. Elmo slides their lens in the lens mount via a grove in the lens barrel...kinda like how Century opens their gate in single lens versions). As such, the lens is always going to sag a bit. The potential there is for uneven focus top to bottom. Kionton clamps the lens in place and has a proper focus assmebly. Elmo wins hands down on sound though. They generally had the best preamps and have transformer isolated balanced outputs in addition to speaker level outputs. The Elmo is also a complete unit...the lamphouse and power supply are all part of it. Even for 2000-watts you only need 208 single-phase. The LX-1100 can even run on standard 120VAC (there are taps to set the unit to the voltage of your area).

In either case, budget in a good lens. If the focal length for your facitly is in the 20-60mm range, there is really only one lense to look at...it is the ISCO Vario-Kiptaron 20-60mm. This unit is around $1500US but worth every penny (or Euro). It is THAT good. We've put it up against the lenses by ISCO and Schneider (Super Cinelux and the like) for the 35mm format and this blessed lens beats them all. With 16mm lens quality counts more than ever. Beware, ISCO has two Vario-Kiptarons...one is in the $400 range...that is a coke bottle...better to stay with a factory lens than that. ISCO makes the good Vario-Kiptaron for the Eiki (same size as the Kinoton/Bauer but has ribs to work with the focus mechanism of the Eiki, Kinoton/Bauer, Elmo and possibly others.

BTW...I think we do have Kinoton FP-16s and an Elmo LX-1100 for sale...probably in your price range...email for further discussions on that if interested.

Steve

Posted by Christian Appelt (Member # 1067) on 07-05-2004, 12:52 PM:

Bauer Selecton is a fine older 16mm xenon too. It's easy to operate & clean and runs reliable for years - if you can get your hands on a well-maintained used one. I think Kinoton will still supply spare parts for Selectons. I always found this machine very gentle on old prints, and I could not agree more with Steve on the lens question: Don't save money on the lens - it does indeed make a huge difference!

In the question of picture steadiness, I disagree with Leo. Some 16mm claw mechanism projectors are as good as or better than maltese cross machines in that respect. 16mm maltese cross mechanics are not as straight forward as in 35mm machines, maybe that has something do do with it. The best 16mm steadiness I ever experienced (test grids from a pin-registered animation camera) step-contact printed, then shown on a 28 ft. screen) came to my surprise from a EIKI claw mechanism projector

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-05-2004, 05:18 PM:

If the element you're projecting is in good condition (i.e. insignificant shrinkage and no perf damage) then agreed, a Maltese cross mechanism doesn't necessarily offer any advantage. Also agreed that Eiki claw pulldowns are very accurate. But, being realistic, no-one running 16mm in a arthouse or rep cinema situation today is likely to be handling new prints very often. In fact, quite the opposite. Old, worn, shrunk and damaged elements are likely to be the norm, hence my preference for an FP.

BTW, an Eiki would be my projector of choice if portability was essential.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-05-2004, 06:27 PM:

Elmo uses a 2-perf claw so it handles shrunken film quit well too. I'd put the LX-1100/2200 up against an FP intermittent any day. The quality of the print is likely to have more influance over the steadiness than either of these machine's ability to register the picture.

I have been told by Kinoton that Bauer parts (16mm at least) are limited to those on hand...no new parts are going to be produced. The machines have been out of production long enough to continue support for such a small market.

Steve

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-05-2004, 06:44 PM:

I always had problems with the EL5000 EL5001 and the FP16 having issues with badly shrunken film on the large intermitent sprocket
My favorite 16mm was just that the Zeis/Prevost Favorite 16b it has an exceptional picture
The steadiest and gentlest 16mm I delt ith was a old hortson type G machine the newer normandie had a jumpy picture but that old one just had the picture glued to the screen

Posted by Alain LeTourneau (Member # 2175) on 07-06-2004, 02:28 AM:

I think for those with a budget the Elmo LX-1100 is a probably the best choice.

FP-18 is a little steep, and the 38 is way over budget!

I like Christian's comments about claw movements...."depends on projector". It's too easy for novices like me to take comments like geneva good, claw bad seriously. Without experience its hard to say and I've seen many films projected....if I only knew on what projectors.

As for Leo's comment on what will be projected its about 50/50. Half will be new prints (people still make 16mm despite the economics) and old (and sometimes) shrunken prints.

Alain

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-06-2004, 08:04 AM:

By far the best of the lot was the Eastman 25. If you can find a nice clean one its as good as it gets for 16mm. Easy to thread, small footprint but still accomodates 6K foot reels, Rock steady image and your film runs over ruby jewells in the gate! There were some with internal incandescent lamphouse and some with carbon arc which are easily converted over to Xenon. Contact Jim at Full Aperature Systems in Chicago he is an expert on them and rebuilds them and installs them in high end screening rooms and theatres. A couple of recent installa of rebuilt 25s he did was for Disney, another at a Jewish museum in California.

Mark

Posted by Alain LeTourneau (Member # 2175) on 07-06-2004, 12:23 PM:

I missed the bidding on an Eastman 25 on eBay. It was the carbon model and sold for $750. University of Michigan surplus.

The last quote I got for an Eastman 25 install was close to $20,000. Not really in my ballpark or the organization I'm trying to help. This was for a somewhat small space as well.

Alain

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-06-2004, 01:51 PM:

quote: Alain LeTourneau
The last quote I got for an Eastman 25 install was close to $20,000

Easy to get spoiled at Kodak. [Wink]

We have three Eastman Model 30s in one of our screening rooms, and some 25's and 30's in other Kodak screening rooms. An oldie but goodie, if you can find them and a source of spare parts.

Posted by Alain LeTourneau (Member # 2175) on 07-06-2004, 06:29 PM:

Is it true that the Eastman 25 shares parts with the Eastman 285 telecine projector?

Alain

Posted by Larry Shaw (Member # 388) on 07-13-2004, 09:08 PM:

I talked to people at both the Elmo and Eiki booths at the NSCA trade show RE: their 16mm products. Sadly both assured me that they would no longer be building or supporting the 16mm products.

Regarding Kinoton/Norelco parts, for later models everything is available, but as they get older some parts, particularly ones that are not "wear items" are scarce. Example: we have no FP-16 lamp tables, but all the bits that touch the film and are part of the drive train we do have.

Regarding Bauer Selecton series, things are spotty, and very little is being made due to lack of demand. That said, we do have 3 brand new Selecton II-0 movements in stock.

Its hard for me to reccomend that folks buy machines that cannot be reliably repaired, despite my high regard for some of the designs. This is particularly true for places that are planning to run public exhibitions and/or intending to keep using the machine regularly for a number of years. Basement cinemas and projector collectors are a different situation of course.