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Posted by Thomas Dieter (Member # 2507) on 07-03-2004, 10:44 PM:
 
I have read over the ways to build a print properly from this site, and I have no problems with how they explained what to do. I also searched the forums a little for a previous thread to ask these questions and read over first, but after half an hour of looking I gave up. What I am having a problem with is the use of shoe polish or a grease pen/pencil to mark the beginning of a reel for when you go to break down a print. No I have never used shoe polish on a print, but I have heard stories of other projectionists either running across a print that had shoe polish used on it, and or used it.

I have been a projectionist for about 3 years now, and when I was trained, I the company that I worked for in Yakima Wa. never practiced the grease pen/shoe polish way to build a print. We used the (what we called) mowed lawn practice. That practice with White Splices for the reel changes worked fine. Now with clear splices, and tiger stripe splices, I can see why you might try the shoe polish or grease pen practice.

Here are my questions.
1. Is there a problem or a reason that you shouldn't use a grease pen/pencil? Naturally there is the logical reason you don't want to use shoe polish.
2. Who has practiced this technique of building a print?
3. As a substitute for a grease pen when one runs out, and there are no more, would a Silver Sharpie be a good substitute?

4. Now this one is pointed to those that are trained with the TA-10 Automation systems. In the manual for the cue, it suggests that you take and put a clear half splice over the cue to insure that the cue won't come off. Is this the correct way to put them on, or is it okay to just put the cue on without the half splice?
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 07-04-2004, 12:18 AM:
 
The reason you shouldn't mark a print in ANY way is because you will destroy the digital soundtrack(s). If you mark the edge, you will mess up the SDDS track, if you use too much then you will bleed into the Dolby Digital track. And yes, I've even seen markings and grease and shoe polish all the way into the analog sound and even into the picture. It's just a mess.

Now I know what you're thinking. Dollar theaters, who are most likely to play the print after you, don't have SDDS or other digital sound. That's incorrect. I work at a sub-run theater with both SDDS and DTS sound. Unfortunately, due to the way most places treat their prints, we have only successfuly played ONE movie in SDDS that didn't drop out the entire year we've been open -- and that print came from our first-run sister theater.

But take that a step further and think of titles like Spiderman, Titanic, or Lord of the Rings which people may want to run again in the future. If they choose to play these in digital, they may be out of luck.

It's not that hard to find a splice - even clear ones - when breaking down a print. For one, each reel is a slightly different shade when on the platter. Once you start to reach the end of a particular shade, just start carefully feeling for a splice. You'll never miss it.

Or at least use Edgemark tape or something else that can be removed as opposed to permenantly marking a print. Silver Sharpie is probably the worst option, as even shoe polish can be removed with some effort.

=TMP=
 

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Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 07-04-2004, 01:17 AM:
 
Another reason I have been taught not to use anything to mark the reels with is if the stuff doesn't dry completely before you continue winding the film, it could cause two layers of film to stick together. Ouch!

Other operators at my theater currently use the CPI Edgemark tape. I refuse to use it (see below). My last theater used only clear splicing tape (our owner doesn't like zebra tape -- kudos to him!), and I never had any difficulty breaking down a print. As Thomas P. said, simply slow down when you get near the beginning of the reel, and feel for the splice. Works every time.

If you absolutely have to mark your reel changes, Edgemark is the way to go. It isn't messy, and can be easily removed by the next operator. A few words of caution, though. If applied incorrectly, it can cause SRD to revert, and it can cause a horizontal image shift as it goes through the gate. You should only use half an inch to an inch. Any more is simply unnecessary. As explained in the review , the tape is too wide, and it partially covers the SRD track. Therefore, by using more than about an inch, you will be covering too much of the SRD track, and it will revert. This, of course, assumes your theater is equipped to play SRD. If not, then the only problem with the Edgemark will be the image shift, just as with a splice.

What is this "mowed lawn practice"?

[ 07-04-2004, 02:36 AM: Message edited by: Ken Lackner ]
 

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Posted by Wolff King Morrow (Member # 2226) on 07-04-2004, 05:37 AM:
 
Edit:
My bad. I thought this thread was about breaking down a print by mistake. That's what I was talking about below.

A method I have used in the past is to place a small square of masking tape beside each splice when I am ready to break down the print (note I am talking about the print as it sits on the platter waiting to be broken down). Now I know others may flame me by saying this leaves residue, but I have found that only OLD masking tape left on for an extended amount of time or in hot conditions leaves residue. My tape markers were removed within minutes of placing them, and as such I saw absolutely no trace of any residue left behind. No damage to the print edges, no residue, and in fact the print was pristine when I finished.

Now I just eyeball the print splices like some of the others here do, but I saw no faults in my previous method as a beginner for the reasons I stated above.
 

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Posted by Peter Mork (Member # 1336) on 07-04-2004, 09:22 AM:
 
Silver paint markers don't work very well. I find the lines are hard to see. I have used white or yellow paint markers (prefer nontoxic type, such as Speedball Painters, to the Xylene variety - the paint on the water-based ones seems more permanent, and they don't make you swoon from the fumes).

I put a thin line on the emulsion side at the beginning of each reel, for a couple of turns. Unlike shoe polish it won't cause a mess.

This REALLY helps in breakdowns. I don't agree that finding a clear splice is always easy, especially in a dimly lit booth late at night when you have a lot of breakdown work to do and don't need the aggrivation of trying to guess where the heck your splice is. Tiger tape is pretty useless, in my experience.

As for the digital soundtrack objection, you might want to forego doing this on SDDS prints. Someday not long from now SDDS will disappear (for good or ill).

[ 07-06-2004, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Peter Mork ]
 

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Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 07-04-2004, 09:30 AM:
 
An old trick I learned when taping on live broadcasts was to pop a small piece of paper in the reel at the spot you want to locate. It's easy to do on the last run of a film. Stick a little paper "flag" in the film as it winds over a splice. NOthing sticks to the film, there's no residue and it's REAL easy to see. Personally, I find it just as easy to use my finger resting on the side of the film as it rewinds back onto a reel. Splices definitely can be felt.
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 07-04-2004, 02:01 PM:
 
Good suggestion, John. I use the paper trick when marking the roll for when someone fogot to stick a cue on to bring the lights up or down. Works great.

Peter -- My booth is so dim, even with all the lights on, you still need a flash on the camera to get anything but a black picture. The point is, if there's enough light available for you to thread the projector accurately, then there should be more than enough light to find the splices when breaking down a print. The key is to FEEL for the splice when you're getting near the end, instead of just look for them. But whatever works best, I suppose.

I managed to break down a 3-hour print (Dogville, 10 reels) in a little less than an hour. This was a Lion's Gate print, and I'm not sure what film stock(s) they use, but whenever I build a print from them or another small studio (newmarket), the roll is one continuous shade instead of varying shades of reels like most other prints. This makes it harder, but it can still be done.

=TMP=
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-04-2004, 02:24 PM:
 
For theaters that have operators that just cannot handle not having the print obviously identified, I push this option.

Splice the back side of the print first (base side, assuming you run soundtrack up), flip the print over and cut a strip from your Artist's tape (which every theater is requird to have by professional law) that is 3/4" wide (the width of the tape) and about 1/16" tall. Lay this piece on the inboard side of the sprockets, then lay the splicing tape down across the front side of the print as normal. When breaking down, the Artist's tape leaves no residue (unlike the Edgemark) and will not interfere with any digital soundtrack. Nor does it suffer "bleeding" issues like paint pens and shoe polish does. It is also just as easy to see as opaque tape pulling off of the roll.

The only disadvantage is that on some projectors it will cause a quick blip in focus for 2 frames, but it is generally very minor and certainly less obtrusive to the focus than Edgemark tape.





As you can see, in a dark environment, the white mark shows up very well.
 

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Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 07-05-2004, 01:06 AM:
 
Brad: Your method is quite interesting. However, seems like it produces the same end result as zebra tape: once the splice is reached during breakdown, you can tell whether it is your changeover splice by the mark, as opposed to a mid reel splice, which would have no mark. The reason people use Edgemark, is because you can easily see it while looking at the top of the print on the platter, and from there you can tell you have a changover splice, not a mid reel splice. I'm not saying I condone using Edgemark; I do not.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-05-2004, 01:44 AM:
 
Assuming that only one yellow line was placed on the film similar to the picture above, yes it's basically the same thing. The big issue is that there exist no zebra tape made by any company that peels off effortlessly. Not even Neumade's zebra peels off without leaving residue.
 

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Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 07-05-2004, 01:47 AM:
 
Why would their clear tape peel so effortlesly (I assume it does because you have not made an issue of it here), but not their zebra tape? Isn't the adhesive the same?
 

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Posted by Josh Kirkhart (Member # 1046) on 07-05-2004, 02:40 AM:
 
1. Interferes with the digital soundtrack (SDDS)

2. Yes, many people have and continue to do it, whether it was taught to them and/or is company policy. Very few Reparatory titles I have handled and seen have NOT been marked in these ways. 90% of them for feet upon feet of film.

3. If marking edges is what they do, then I don't see why a colored sharpie would be different.

4. A one-sided splice over a cue is fine and in good practice. It makes it easier to identify in breakdown/build-up for removal. In cases of Barcoded cues a splice under the cue is easier to remove as it is less widely used. As far as cues coming off, never seen it or had it happen, at worst you replace it.

If your doing this with on-screen presentation in mind you make sure your Full-down cue is on the last trailer before the feature in the black at the end. In theatres which still use digital tags (DTS,SDDS,SRD) or policy trailers the cue for best effect is placed before said tag. This reduces any inside-frame cues from being seen, and any movement in the gate is not noticed. For the credit cue more delicacy and preference is used, just so that the lights are timed correctly and the cues are seen as little as possible. End cues are easy and for the most part are not seen by most audience members but still should be done carefully.

Ken, You obviously are not going to be edge-marking prints with anything according to your latter posts. If you are using the 'feel' method and train anyone else with the same mentality and skills, why the edge-mark question. Brad, people that edgemark want the easy way out and you know it, so showing them this step is fruitless as they will be going so fast they could not see the white tape, zebra or anything similar. As Ken stated this is for people that need to know when to go from MACH speed to cruise.

The real solution is to hang a light, or grab a portable light, and then train yourself and your staff how to break down correcty.

Rant off.
 

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Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 07-05-2004, 02:51 AM:
 

quote: Josh Kirkhart

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Ken, You obviously are not going to be edge-marking prints with anything according to your latter posts. If you are using the 'feel' method and train anyone else with the same mentality and skills, why the edge-mark question.

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Just playing Devil's advocate in trying to explain why people feel the need to use Edgemark even though they already have zebra tape. And I completely agree that the people most likely to use Edgemark are the lazy ones. They're not going to be bothered to take the time to use Brad's method.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-05-2004, 03:26 AM:
 
Ken and Josh, lots of people have converted to using just that splice tip, despite what you may think.

Regardles, I do agree people should just learn to do things the right way, but this is better than the alternatives for the stubborn ones.
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-05-2004, 05:52 AM:
 
Occasionally I run 6000ft reels and when we have to play 16mm, it is on long playing reels. These are almost always used, older prints and they can have lots of splices -- and it's not uncommon to find the splices concentrated around the reel heads and tails. Until I read Brad's suggestion about marking the reels themselves at the film line, I used to use a white grease pencil. Actually it's a mechanical feed pencil made by Rosco that is very handy -- no paper wraps to get a sharp point (which hardly ever works properly), just a quick twist and you have a new point....same principal as a mechanical lead pencil. I would not mark the sprocket area, but only make a short, inch line on the film body, i.e., on the side of the film roll. This seemed to work very well and the thing I liked about it is that with just a dab of Ecco 1500 on a clean, soft rag, the mark removes completely in one swipe, which I would always do on breakdown.

Since this grease compound (it's not really grease) is so easily removed, I wouldn't put it in the same class as the more other permanent markers (who was it that first thought, "gee, here's some shoe polish....let me use it to mark film"?). Even if someone were to mark the grease pencil right on the sprocket hole area instead of the side of the roll, and even if it were to migrate into any of the soundtrack areas (which I never found it to do...it pretty much stays put), it can be cleaned so quickly and thoroughly, that I would think it could be considered film-fiendly. Indeed, when prints come in that have those big diagonal grease pencil slashes across the change-over frames, put on by all those near-blind projectionists who can't see cues, I actually whisper a happy "thank you" to them because I am so grateful that they did use grease pencil rather than having at the print with those dreaded razor blades, kitchen knives, paper punches and every other implement of destruction to mutilate the emulsion that we see all too often in older prints. That big red diagonal slash across the cue frame wipes off in just a few seconds, no harm done. A short line on the film edge to mark the reel joing isn't harmful at all.
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 07-05-2004, 11:23 AM:
 

quote: Ken Lackner

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Just playing Devil's advocate in trying to explain why people feel the need to use Edgemark even though they already have zebra tape.

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Ken -- Could you play Devil's advocate to a theater that used opaque yellow splices, about 6" of Edgemark AND shoe polish?? I worked at one, and after painstakingly training the booth staff as to how to find clear splices, they just started filling a reel and chopping. Some people just don't want to learn, no matter what.

No offense, Brad, but do you think people who don't want to learn the correct way to do things would actually take the time to mark the splice that way? Nah, it's MUCH EASIER to screw presentation and use opaque white/yellow.

Many have said that opaque tape should be discontinued, but even Neumade says "But our customers request it." Hmmm. Some theaters don't feel they have to play F911 even though their customers request it.

=TMP=
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-05-2004, 01:27 PM:
 
Thomas, if that trick did not work to get some theaters to stop putting shoe polish and other obnoxious markings on the print, I would not have posted it. I am not saying it is the best way to build a print. I am only saying it is an acceptable way to identify the splice without damaging the film, and a superior way than using zebra tape which leaves residue. Why have I had to clarify everything I've said this last week to you?
 

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Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 07-05-2004, 02:57 PM:
 
When tearing down the print, just put a small piece of tape on top of the print near the splice. If you only have to tear it down once, there's no reason to put any marks or flags on the print until you tear it down.
 

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Posted by Adam Wilbert (Member # 1184) on 07-05-2004, 07:32 PM:
 
It hasn't been mentioned yet here (though i believe its in the tips section) that marking how full the reels are when building up gives you a very accurate way to help know when you should be nearing the splice. Also, as noted above, a piece of artists tape on top of the film marking the location of the splice (which is usually easier to locate when the platter is stopped) not only helps you find it, it narrows down how often you have to be expecting the splice as you get closer. As that little flag goes around and around, you only *really* have to be feeling once per revolution.

What is edgemark? I've never used or seen it.

-Adam
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-05-2004, 07:34 PM:
 
Edgemark

It's no longer distributed by CPI (nothing of quality is anymore), but the product is still around.
 

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Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 07-06-2004, 10:18 AM:
 
I know this is obvious but what the hell is so hard about finding a splice? Feel the top of the roll and slow down once you can see the texture of the reel dissappearing. I have a been breaking down prints by doing this and/or feeling the edges as it passes onto the rollers of the MUT ever since I started and I hardly ever miss a splice.

And on another note I recieved a shipping reel the other day that had a "fill line" on it. Artists tape with a mark on it. It's nice to see other people out there actually practice these techniques.
 

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Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 07-06-2004, 11:16 AM:
 
Brad, Edgemark is still on CPI's website.
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 07-06-2004, 11:32 AM:
 

quote: Brad Miller

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Thomas, if that trick did not work to get some theaters to stop putting shoe polish and other obnoxious markings on the print, I would not have posted it. I am not saying it is the best way to build a print. I am only saying it is an acceptable way to identify the splice without damaging the film, and a superior way than using zebra tape which leaves residue. Why have I had to clarify everything I've said this last week to you?

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quote: Ken Lackner

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Edgemark is still on CPI's website.

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quote:

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CPI has become a professional group of scam artists... That's why they no longer have any quality products. Everything they sell now is bottom of the barrel crap.

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So true! Unfortunately we have CPI tape at work, garbage! The stuff doesn't peel off in one piece because it is so thin. You end up having to peel many slivers of tape from the film!

I always use the Neumade at home, it always peels off in one piece and leaves no goo behind.

danny
 

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Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 07-07-2004, 09:58 PM:
 
Ahh, quit griping Danny! Just be lucky I let you work there!

Yes, the CPI tape isn't the best. Of course, CPI doesn't make the tape... doesn't Jack Roe? Regardless, that same tape is distributed under at least three different brands.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-07-2004, 10:34 PM:
 
Personally I find the JackRoe tape the most durable
 

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Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 07-08-2004, 02:22 AM:
 
I don't believe that Jack Roe is making tape for CPI anymore.

-Aaron
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-08-2004, 11:16 AM:
 
Jack Roe tape can be had through Jack Roe or by requesting it from your dealer.

Any tape currently being sent out under CPI should be thrown back at your dealer. Their tape will undoubtedly change every few months as each manufacturer gets burned (they don't pay their bills) and they move on to another.

Re: clear tape
Neumade/Splycemar tape is the best hands down. Anyone disagreeing is wrong, including Christopher Seo. Jack Roe is my second and only other choice, but the last batch I got had bad slitting and the 4 horizontal lines on screen from it were obnoxious, so it had to be reserved for trailer splicing. There is still the issue of residue after peeling a little bit, but it's not too bad. Never, ever residue when using Neumade/Splycemar.

Re: zebra tape
First off, anyone using this needs to learn how to break down a print properly. However for those who just insist on using marked tape, the T-Stripe from Jack Roe can't be beat. Neumade/Splycemar is my second choice in this department. Expect some residue from both.

Re: opaque tape
Anyone using opaque tape needs to be fired from their job, then taken out back and shot in the head at close range because they are stupid and lazy. For those wishing death upon themselves in this manner (we will be sending out crews to do the dirty work), does it really matter what kind of tape you use? After all, you and your presentation suck royally anyway, so there's little doubt you are putting forth any effort to take care of the prints.
 

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Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 07-08-2004, 11:25 AM:
 
Brad: You never answered my question. How can Neumade clear tape not leave residue, but their zebra tape does? I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just asking because I'm confused. Is not the adhesive material the same?
 

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Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 07-08-2004, 08:38 PM:
 

quote: Brad Miller

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Neumade/Splycemar tape is the best hands down. Anyone disagreeing is wrong, including Christopher Seo.

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quote: Christopher Seo

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Yes, the CPI tape isn't the best.

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I hereby officially endorse Neumade tape as the best non-perforated splicing tape in the known universe!

I looked at the CPI tape we have and it says "Made in UK". We got this stuff around the beginning of the year, IIRC.

Ken, I wouldn't be surprised if the adhesive is different. The yellow stripe is printed on the adhesive side (since it leaves a yellow stripe residue on the film), so perhaps a different adhesive is needed for that purpose. Or maybe the process needed to put the stripe on messes up the adhesive. Regardless, it's really annoying when you peel off a piece of zebra tape in which the stripe was incorrectly placed (i.e., in the projected image area) and the stripe is still there!
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-08-2004, 09:51 PM:
 

quote:

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I hereby officially endorse Neumade tape as the best non-perforated splicing tape in the known universe!

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Good! Now Danny will let you live.

Ken, not knowing anything about the manufacture of splicing tape, I'm really not the person to ask, but the adhesive clearly has to be different.
 

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Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 07-09-2004, 03:14 AM:
 
That's interesting. I always thought the stripe was printed on the non-adhesive side. I don't use Nuemade tape, but sometimes when we get used prints, it still has the tape on it. (Yellow zebra, not sure what brand.) I've never had a problem with part of the stripe being left on the film after I peel it off.
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 07-09-2004, 11:29 AM:
 
What about Neumade "Cherry" or "Hot Pink" or whatever they call it tape? It's the tape with the clear center, no T-stripe, and only two thin red stripes on the SDDS track edges. (Maybe the SRD too, I dunno) We used to use this back in the day at the 18-screen, and I get some used prints with it left on sometimes nowadays.

It comes off as easy as the Neumade Clear stuff, quick and easy, doesn't leave residue and the red lines don't stay behind. I think they're printed on the outer surface, not the adhesive side.

I agree, the yellow "zebra" tape is a mess. I get prints with the heads and tails spliced on with this stuff (yeah, I know, at least they're splicesd) and if they spliced in a hurry, you have a vertical yellow line going through the image or the soundtrack, and it's time to bust out the F-G!

=TMP=
 

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Posted by Jannette McQueen (Member # 1885) on 12-09-2004, 11:24 AM:
 

quote:

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Posted by Josh Kirkhart:

4. A one-sided splice over a cue is fine and in good practice. It makes it easier to identify in breakdown/build-up for removal. In cases of Barcoded cues a splice under the cue is easier to remove as it is less widely used. As far as cues coming off, never seen it or had it happen, at worst you replace it.

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quote: Dominic Espinosa

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Tape shouldn't be used because it'll cause more displacement in the gate (i.e. in a lights up cue at the end of the feature) with tape on it.

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quote: Barry Martin

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I would seriously consider talking to your "company" or any representative thereof about "marking" reels. It is COMPLETELY unneccessary.

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I would highly recommend working in "our" booth, before you go around telling "us" what is and is not necessary.
 

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Posted by Ever Gonzalez (Member # 2794) on 12-10-2004, 09:57 PM:
 
Tearing down prints is the same in all booths Chase. Only difference is the equipment.

Also, I agree that using tape is an alternative for marking reels, but the idea of having a free peices of tape around is not a good idea in my books. I can't trust that the projectionist will throw away the tape after they are done. I have a saying that, "Tape is our best friend, but also our enemy." I really can't see anything wrong with the use of the China Marker.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-11-2004, 02:19 AM:
 
I worked in a circuit where all we had was clear tape-and no marking allowed. But, we were shown that each reel has it's own from of "marking" - as you notice on the film winds on the platter, the different "textured" look from each reel (granted, when a lab splice is done within a reel, that messes things up some..), so I was able to see the splices come from the platter deck to the MUT by when the shade of texture was ending for that particular reel. But, there was another trick - take a piece of masking tape, and lay that masking tape in front of the splice on the film wind, then when the edge of the masking tape was coming to the end of the wind, you know your splice was coming close-for you to slow that MUT down and catch that splice as it comes around.
 

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Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 12-11-2004, 02:32 AM:
 
Wait, your cross cues are wearing off?! That shouldn't happen. Now edge cues, those can wear.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-11-2004, 03:39 AM:
 
Monte's post above is getting to the meat of this. Any professional projectionist should be able to break a print down without ANY markings on the print, and without colored/zebra tape. (By the way, the tip of marking the "fill line" solves the issue of a reel with a lab splice.) If you work one of my booths, you will be greeted with ULTRASONIC splices joining the reels, so you can't even cheat by the obvious feel of a tape splice. It's all a matter of knowing the proper way to break a print down. Remember, you NEVER physically "look" for the splice. If you are using your eyes other than to get a general ballpark of how much more film needs to wind off onto the shipping reel, you are doing it wrong. (Yes I will some day make a tips page or video showing this.)

Dustin, I've never had a problem with edge cues, and I've never covered them with splicing tape. The trick is to use Neumade Aucuta II cue tape, and make sure your projectors are not scuffing the edges (such as a pad roller that is too tight).
 

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Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 12-11-2004, 03:55 AM:
 
Well, yes, technically they shouldn't, but edge cues wearing would be more understandable than cross cues wearing. If one's cross cues are wearing there are some pretty serious issues with one's projectors.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-11-2004, 04:44 AM:
 
Thx, Brad for your support.

It's neat knowing that if one use their eyes and use them keenly, it's amazing on what we can learn.

Yes, coming from the days of shoe polish procedures (in which I even perfected that old trait by just shoepolishing a couple feet of that white stuff on the emulsion side of the edge-not just slop that goo on. And with that perfected trick, I never any flaking in the print and that white stayed on throughout the entire run of the film, and that was 20 plus years ago.

Then on to zebra-tape useage, which was okey, but using CIRO splicers with the 5-hole punch and die arragement, it was a trick to get that zebra line on the frame line of a scope print to do a decent punch.

Then, onto the clear stuff as mentioned before, and by that time, I've learned more tricks, after being shown as mentioned above, on just seeing the reel changes by the textured traits of each reel on the platter wind.

If I have a reel loaded with a lab splice, I mark the holddown tape that is securing the head leaders of these notices, and mark the tape if I have a short reel less than 10 minutes long, so I can be more attentive of that splice coming around quicker than expected.

Granted, I've made mention of me using "Edgemark Tape" - the yellow tape, the same width as cue tape, that one puts on the edge of the film, by folding over covering just the entire surface prior to the sprocket row. I do this, for the circuit that I work for now, has operators that are dependent and trained in using this material. Otherwise, I'd be STILL using just the clear and my eyes. Just something that I've mastered quite easily.


Lots of little tricks that I've developed in my time..and nobody showed, or trained me of this.

I'll have to tell everybody of a trick that I do, the splice can hold for weeks, and I know that I'll get some buzz and gaw on this and that is: when I draw my tape across the splice, I stop the tape right after the soundtrack and before the sprocket row, then press and punch. Turn the film over, draw the tape to the edge of the print scene and before the sprocket row, then press and punch. Granted, this is not a complete splice where one draws the tape completely across, but.. the spice goes through the machine so much quieter, absolutely no frame hop-like a clean changeover, easier to punch since the punch is doing one set of holes on each side, and I've never had any of these splices fail, nor stretch on me when I do this..and I've been doing this for years.

I always try to find a way to make splices that if the splice was never there in the first place.

And this trick above, to me and my presentations, works the best. I know it's not a professional way within the realms of the Projectionist's world, but it works for me and works well.

Please, forgive me of my comments of the new TECH reels-their design, and other reels where people needs to mark the reels with the tape for making the mark where the reel fill line is to be, for I've just never had to reply on that being self trained, once again, to use my eyes "keenly."

How about the "blade" cue sensors of the Ballantyne Pro35 setup, the old Cinemeccanica V-8 EPRAD lower sprocket pad sensor, and before that, the vertical roller trips that were stock on the V-8 setups?

Thx for listening - Monte
 

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Posted by Thomas King (Member # 2745) on 12-11-2004, 08:08 AM:
 
I mark splices with a chinagraph line on the splicing tape over the join, and I also run the marker along the top of the splice (soundtrack edge) so I can see where it lies on the platter. Evidently some people mark a lot more of the soundtrack edge, which to my mind isn't really beneficial as it doesn't make it that much easier to see, and it obscures the SDDS soundtrack and gets gunk on the actual feature.
 

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Posted by Chris Trainor (Member # 9) on 12-11-2004, 12:45 PM:
 
I've always liked the Edgemark tape. Thin little tape that you put about an inch of near the splice on the outside edge of the film. Doesn't fall off, doesn't cause any jumps or other issues in the projector and is highly noticable. That way I can use clear tape for the actual reel changes and all you here is the slight 'click' in the projector when it runs thru... nothing on screen. Of course, this stuff isn't an option if your running SDDS, as it will cause a dropout.

--Chris
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-11-2004, 01:17 PM:
 
I like Edgemark too. But it DOES cause a small jump in the picture when it goes through. The trick is to use a small piece of it, only 1 frame/4 sprockets long and to place it near enough to the splice so that the distance from splice to Edgemark is less than the length of your projector gate. That way, when the splice goes through it makes a jump in the picture before the Edgemark hits. Any jump the Edgemark makes will be covered by the jump from the splice.

I don't know any projector that doesn't jump at least a LITTLE BIT when a tape splice goes through.

After a few months of working with film, most of my students get used to finding the splices on break-down and don't need the Edgemark tape anymore. They just seem to spontaneously stop using it.

Thus, the reason why I call Edgemark tape "Training Wheels".
 

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Posted by Chase Hanson (Member # 2779) on 12-11-2004, 02:41 PM:
 

quote: Ever Gonzalez

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Tearing down prints is the same in all booths Chase. Only difference is the equipment.

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quote: Ever Gonzalez

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Everything I have learned in the projection booth was from trial and error.

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I'm not sure about most theaters, but this seems to be the case in the theater Ever, Chase, and I work for. I'm quite certain that we've been responsible for crap tear-downs before. The reason for this is because we are not always given enough training. One of the last employees I trained was called down to work the concession stand instead of being able to train in the booth as scheduled. This employee was not given a make-up training shift either. Sometimes this leads beginners to improvise until they learn the correct way. This site is a great resource of information and I now make a point of referring people to this site and have even had several trainees read the "Improving your on screen presentation" document on the tips page. We have it printed out and posted at our booth.
 

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Posted by Barry Martin (Member # 1376) on 12-11-2004, 11:08 PM:
 
Ever, sorry about the name mixup, I worked 5pm-5am that night and I guess I was a bit too tired to see straight. I'm actually not familiar with China Marker, it was never used by the theaters I worked so I just haven't seen it, unless it's come by me on a previously run print and identified as "mystery substance used to mark changes" I believe Jason posted about seeing China Marker transfer to other layers of film. In a similar experience: I tried the sharpie over the splice once (before learning of the tip where you create a slight overlap in splices) to black out the gap created by a real shitty splicer. I marked across the splice on both sides. After I flipped the film over to splice/mark the other side I lifted the film up to start winding onto the bench and there was a black line on both sides of my splicer! So yes even sharpie can bleed (at least for a little bit). I'm not sure where you got my "15 years" experience, I wouldda been 9 when I started I've been handling film since '99 so I'm almost at my six year mark in the booth, but with almost a 2 year hiatus. Only thing that really helped me learn hands on fast was that we ran 4-6 shows/day on each of our 20 projectors with one operator so I was getting plenty of practice and the "rare problems" happened at least once for me instead of only hearing about it.

To anyone else that has replied here about their way and if I have confronted it, just let me say you are doing the right thing for your job by coming here to learn. I'm happy you're here because it increases the chances my used films may come through in good-best condition. So a big However, that dedication to come here and discover new, possibly better ways to do things for yourself has got to be open-minded. I think Brad once said he gives every product/way of doing things a fair try and evaluates it before commenting. You gotta try it to know for sure.

I myself was fairly set in many bad practices given to me by Loews. From Zebra tape to excessive ID frames. I've tried to improve after reading things through here, and almost have the hang of "threading up" in less than 5 minutes (3 years of "threading down" is a hard habit to break). As far as every booth being different, there is no reason why in any booth you could not breakdown a print without marking film. Either the fill line tip or simple use of a mag-lite and a piece of masking tape on top of the film on the platter to mark the reel changes.

If you guys want people to understand and even accept your ideas of what's best for you, you need to back them up with examples. Don't just say "not every booth is the same" come out and say why it's difficult/impossible for you to try these suggestions from everyone and perhaps they can come back and give you solutions that will make your jobs (and those that receive your prints) EASIER. If I was forced to mark my reel changes I would consider it a big pain in the ass extra step that wasn't necessary and cost me more of my time.

From my experiences posting here nobody is trying to "come down on you" or scold you, saying "FOR SHAME". They are just asking "Why?". Anyways, my happy-can't we get along-post for the day, good luck with your print work, and keep listening to the REEL pros here.
 

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Posted by Chase Hanson (Member # 2779) on 12-12-2004, 03:17 AM:
 

quote: William Valdes

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Sometimes this leads beginners to improvise until they learn the correct way.

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No joke, it was over 6 months before I ever recieved a "Build up" training shift. I had built about a dozen prints before that. The booth manager at the time had THE most priceless look on their face when I finally asked for a build up shift.

Ohh yeah,
As for why I "need" to have reel changeovers marked. I have 20/45 vision in one eye, and 20/60 w/astigmatism with the other. If a wear my glasses and squint really hard in a well lit room a plattered print has texture, if I dont have a well lit room/dont wear glasses, its just a fuzzy green donut with a black blob in the middle. When I did tear down, I averaged 5 prints a night. Of those 5 prints I was tearing 4 down using my own personal flashlight and the 10w lamp built into the base of each platter arm on our strong units (if the bulb wasnt burnt out). Our port glasses are friggin huge (at least 10 sq. ft) so pretty much any light you turn on shines into at least one auditorium in some places three. I used to tear down using the "feeler" method, but since I rarely tear down a print I built...and digging up a "Build Up Sheet" for every print I have to tear down (assuming the person building it, A: filled it out properly B: Filled it out at all) to find out roughly how many other non-reel changeover splices are going to be in each reel, it proved to be less effective than using the existing marks. Reguardless of my personal short comings, every person I've taught to teardown learns how to read the "textures" and learns how to feel for splices both chem and tape on a plattered print top and side. They might regularly use only one tool, but they are taught how to use them all.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-12-2004, 04:17 AM:
 
Do you wear glasses or have other corrective assistance with your vision?

Seeing all of these breakdown threads has made it painfully clear to me that the most needed thing right now is a detailed video showing how to buildup and breakdown, and there will probably need to be different versions available as well for different makes and models of platters. The buildup page is somewhat helpful, but actual video would show things much more easier.

The next time I can get Joe down to Texas, we will shoot this and make it available for free download. (No, not a joke video, but a real training video.) It's going to be quite an undertaking though, so give us a little time. After you have viewed it, I promise you won't need to mark the film in any way, and you will be able to find the splices with your eyes closed...literally.
 

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Posted by Chase Hanson (Member # 2779) on 12-12-2004, 04:42 AM:
 
I wear my glasses pretty much the entire time im in the booth.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-12-2004, 09:58 AM:
 
Please remove ANY AND ALL CRAP you put on the film. Edgemarking tape...cues...all of it. You stand a better chance of getting it off without residue than someone days or months later.

Nothing like having a film come to a nice ending, fade to black, and at the very moment the director's name comes up it goes through what looks like an incompetent projectionist doing a massive focus rack because of some stupid, poorly positioned lights-up cue. Or where you're not really supposed to know the film is ending exactly now except that this fact was telegraphed two seconds early because you see the cue go by on screen.

Ditto the little sideways and focus shift that edgetape causes because lazy operators need to save 5 seconds per reel on breakdown. Yes, that means you, Classic Cinemas Elk Grove Theatre, Elk Grove Village, Illinois, which unfortunately does most of the exhibitor previews in my area which in turn means I am often screening prints they have "augmented" with the lazy tape and of course do not remove.

Others may like to run films that way; I don't and I can assure you the filmmakers don't either.
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-12-2004, 04:57 PM:
 
Gee, Steve....don't hold back....tell us what you REALLY think!
 

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Posted by Ever Gonzalez (Member # 2794) on 12-12-2004, 06:14 PM:
 
A video would be great. I have already directed my projectionist to this site (as you can probably tell) and they always have something to say about this site when I go back to my actual "home theatre." Makes me feel good that they are actually taking the time to learn. It is working and I thank you Brad and those who help in running this site.

Barry, I have no idea where I got the 15 years from. I probably saw it somewhere and it just got thrown in there. I feel you and I have been in the same situations before running booth by ourselves and learning our mistakes when things get hectic and you having to be the only one booth trained in the entire building. You and I both started booth in 99 so we are in the same boat (probably) in experience.

I try to show my projectionist on how to actually deal with film. For a while there nobody knew what to do if they ever experienced a brain wrap. It was rare for one to happen at our theatre and when one did happen when the brain died, the projectionist there had no idea how to fix it. I did a booth meeting and got 3 reels of a built up destroyed print that we still had in the building and threw it on the ground to show them how to properly (in a way I learned by experience) put back together a dropped print. (our theatre is a prototype theatre built shortly after the Grand 24 and we actually have to tilt prints to get them through 2 projectors back to back and we have stairs in the booth - so dropped prints are a concern) After that was done we did the brain wrap scenerio. It was very beneficial.

So I am curious..... what is the proper way to fix a dropped print? I know not dropping it to begin with is the answer, but we know that not every projectionist is the sharpest knife of the bunch.

I feel there are several ways depending on how bad the film is intangled. Should I just make this as a new topic?
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-12-2004, 06:41 PM:
 
At this circuit that I work with now, I created a "booth operator's manual" - pertaining to on how to operate the equipment in our circuit. In the section of the "make and break" was the one where I did the most extensive photoshoots (with a digital camera) on the elaborate methods of assemblying prints together from inspecting the cans when they arrive at each theatre, to the completed film winds on the platter. That was quite a bit of work to assemble that section of the manual, for before, there wasn't any form of organized method in the "make and break" department-the other booth employees were just "winging" it as unorganized as they were. thx-Monte
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-12-2004, 08:48 PM:
 
Ever, somewhere in the archives I explained the proper way to pick up a dropped print. Maybe you can find it in a search.

Basically it entails picking up the "clumps" (as large as you can) and putting them on a platter, threading the film through the brain and using the MUT to pull it through the brain (at relatively low speed of course) onto a reel. You ONLY cut the film at a camera cut, and you always cut 2 perforations away from the negative splice. This gives you 1/2 of an ID frame, such that when it is spliced back together in the mess that it is, you have a quick absolute knowing you are getting it back in the proper order. (Of course you trim the two perfs on either side of the cut for a proper splice, thus losing one frame. This is less noticeable than any other method.) Anyway, once you have all of the film off of the floor and onto reels, everything will be "tails out". At that point start building backwards onto large reels with the obvious "last reel" (end credits). When you get to the beginning of that reel, simply match up the 1/2 ID frame, make your repair splice and repeat until you get to the beginning of the movie, then re-platter.

Perhaps if someone would send me a print of Anchorman, I could build it up and then throw it on the floor and shoot a video showing how this is done.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-12-2004, 09:05 PM:
 
Interesting. In that one comedy video that your team produced showing that one fellow scooping a print from the top deck of an AW3R, without clamps or a board, and then allowing the print to fall on him as he was falling down himself. What was that print anywho? Something that was going to be sent back to the lab in a huge trash bag to be destroyed, since I'm sure that print wasn't destined to be "sectioned" off on the platter to be mounted back on the reel, (in which I've had to do that a couple of times, both myself and in instruction to the operators when they deem to forget to check to see if there is a center ring before wizzing off the print to the MUT..)being the mess that was created as that print completely disassociated itself from being round when it and the fellow hit the floor?

Yea, you can build "Team Police" along with "Anchorman" and toss both of them on the floor..lol - thx Monte
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-12-2004, 09:16 PM:
 
Oh it was probably something wonderful like On the Line or Pearl Harbor. Who knows.
 

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Posted by Ever Gonzalez (Member # 2794) on 12-12-2004, 10:31 PM:
 
Thanks Brad, I will for sure look for it.

I didn't think about it, but the print we threw on the floor was only 3 reels. (Brads movie - Without a Paddle) The main point of that part was for me to make sure they labeled each area they had cut with "A" will match the other end they cut with "A". Second cut was "B" would match "B". This way we wouldn't mix up those REALLY bad intanglements.

I am glad to know that I did this properly with a print that I found one Friday morning that had been dropped the night before when the closer and an usher were moving prints and dropped it when they had just come up some stairs. Film was hanging on the coat rack, on the film can shelves, on the build-up table, and the floor of course. I have never fixed a print that was that bad, so using the MUT / Platter (strong) was a quick idea on my part that is of course now learned is the preferred way!
 

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