quote: Michael Schaffer

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Unless you buy Kinoton projectors, then you can get the wonderful integrated basement reader for Dolby Digital which will never give you any trouble and makes that solution more cost-attractive.

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quote:

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Michael said: "...buy DTS. It's cheaper, and you could combine it with a Panastereo analog processor (which is an Australian product) into a nice setup."

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I know this is a minor point, but...

The Panastereo processor was designed by Ray Derrick of Australia. He still maintains the product in terms of upgrades, modifications, etc. However it has been owned and built by SMART Devices since 1997. It comes right from our factory here in Norcross, GA.
 

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Posted by Paul Vollmers (Member # 927) on 07-23-2004, 06:35 AM:
 
Okay............what is a Panastereo Processor.......and what does it do? Is there a model number?

Paul
 

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Posted by Stephen Jones (Member # 16) on 07-23-2004, 08:00 AM:
 
For what its worth if you are in a country town where you get used prints from city plex's that have been used extensively and were most likely recon prints best bet would be DTS as the SR.D track would be most likely showing sighns of wear and would start to default with DTS you wont have this prob long as you request the disks when you book your film.If the prints are in good condition and fairly new then SR.D would be ok.Cost wise DTS is cheaper than Dolby Digital and more so if you a country theatre on a budget.AS for C.P's again on a budget I would go panastereo or for bit more Dolby CP650.As far as sound quality between the two the normal patron cant pick the differance as the both sound great.You may be able to pick up good used equipment eg Dolby CP65,DA20 used DTS equipment check the trade mags in the for sale or talk to your cinema supply people they may have some used gear availavle.

Steve
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 07-23-2004, 08:03 AM:
 

quote:

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Not true. The PK-60D, as well as other Kinoton projectors, come with a reverse scan reader for optical and SRD. The same type of reader is available as an upgrade for older Kinoton projectors.

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quote: Oscar Neundorfer

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The Panastereo processor was designed by Ray Derrick of Australia. He still maintains the product in terms of upgrades, modifications, etc. However it has been owned and built by SMART Devices since 1997. It comes right from our factory here in Norcross, GA.

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Oscar, I remember you and Ray told me about this last year at ShoWest. That's why I didn't say Made in Australia.
 

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Posted by Matthew Jaro (Member # 1786) on 07-23-2004, 09:02 AM:
 
I have had trouble with the SRD track on older prints. In one case there was a scratch right through the Dolby track. Don't forget that the projector handles the film by the edges, and if the skates, bands, etc. are dirty, the SRD track will be messed up. The DTS time codes are in a very protected area. However, disk availability is certainly an issue.

In regard to the Panastereo processor: I have one and the difference between it and my previous processor is incredible. The SR decoding is the best I have ever heard. There are plenty of inputs. I need this since I run both SRD and DTS. They both revert to SR in case of failure. Mono has the Academy equalization. The gain in each format is remembered. It's just so good that it is worth the money. There is absolutely zero hum and noise (important with the high dynamic range of the digital formats). I believe there is a special offer with substantial savings if you buy both a Panastereo processor and a DTS unit.
 

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Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 07-23-2004, 01:45 PM:
 
DTS stands for Do They Ship?
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-23-2004, 05:38 PM:
 
No 10 minuite discussion from me on this one. Buy the Panastereo CSP-1200 and XD-10 DTS units together through Smart and save ALOT of $$. Its the best thing going for cinema sound. No digitally based processor on the market even approaches the sound quality of the CSP-1200! Its really just that simple. But if you've got to have SRD(stupid rediclous digital) then buy the DA-20 to go along with the CSP-1200. That pair easily blows the CP-650 out of the water.

Get price quotes for at least several dealers! There can be a huge difference in pricing!
Mark @ CLACO
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-23-2004, 06:01 PM:
 
Nah, Mark's been smokin' some of that I-30 stuff. Go with SRD either via CP650 or DA20 and the processor of your choice.

SRD just works without the typical nonsense of missing, scratched or broken discs! Furthermore I've been running badly beaten kid's repertory movies all summer for a "summer movie camp" thing and we haven't had any problems. (I ran one of the Rugrat movies that had stretched sprockets througout and yet it sat there and tracked 0 and 1s on the error scale!) Only a couple of those prints showed up with dts discs and I am tired of seeing badly scratched and broken discs arriving in the cans even with brand new movies.

When dts works it works great, but they have far more issues than SRD. You get what you pay for.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-23-2004, 06:13 PM:
 
I would not characterize that the DA-20/CSP1200 has "blowing the CP-650 out of the water." I don't think Mark has used the CP-650 enough to really make that sort of statement. The CP-650 does a very good job with the sound. It is certainly less flexible than the CSP1200 and ultimately the CSP1200 can do a job that is superior to the CP-650 but not as cut and dried as Mark leads one to believe.

No patron is going to find one dramatically better than the other.

As for DTS...a DTS/CSP1200 is just about impossible to beat if you are going that way. What I wouldn't be as inclinded to do is get a DTS and hook it to a CP650SR

Steve
 

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Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 07-23-2004, 07:14 PM:
 
Brad obviously CAN do something to SRD. -I've never yet seen a "1" or "0" on my DA20 - not even on new prints. Maybe some of this is because of the subtitling - I don't know, how much damage it can do. -But still, as several (except Brad) others, I believe that a cinema that is running anything else than first-run prints, should absolutely go for dts - even when those bandits will not support their own equipment, when they think, it's time for You to buy something new. I've got both systems, and I also feel that there is hearable difference, with dts as the winner every time. Since analog went redlight, I've even had films, sounding better in SR than SRD - right now for example ScoobyDoo 2.

Last, it will always be a matter of taste. Brad likes SRD and not DTS - although it has not always been so, if I remember right --wasn't there a sudden chance in taste a year or two back ?? He also don't like a DP70, which a small fraction of us adore.. Taste - everyman's right - and not a matter of discussion --or.... If You can't have the girl You love, do at least love the one You get.
(And when You're through the girl-stuff, go buy a dts unit !)
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-23-2004, 08:28 PM:
 
Well Per you're right. Up until a few years back I was working with SDDS and DTS 99% of the time with only one SRD unit in town. As such my comments were based upon SDDS vs. DTS. Needless to say, DTS was the clear winner due to various problems with SDDS's reliability, but over the last 2 years the reliability of DTS has become a joke to me with defective timecode tracks, scratched, broken or nonexistant discs, drives failing, and my personal favorite...the DTS company screwing over all the little guys by making them pay for their Toshiba drive mistake while they gave out free replacement kits to the big chains!

Needless to say, Dolby doesn't screw the independents over and their customer service is top notch. Plus I just don't have any problems with tracking issues! Like I said when DTS works, and you get the discs with the print, and there isn't a defective timecode track and the discs aren't scratched or broken and the drives aren't crapping out on you, DTS works great. Regardless, my preference towards SRD over DTS is well backed.
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 07-23-2004, 08:58 PM:
 

quote:

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the DTS company screwing over all the little guys by making them pay for their Toshiba drive mistake while they gave out free replacement kits to the big chains!

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That was obviously before my time in the US. What exactly happened back then?
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-23-2004, 09:02 PM:
 
Steve,
I've installed about a dozen CP-650's so far(more than I would have wanted to) on a large variety of systems....two way, three way, large systems and small systems, biamped and not. So, yes I've worked with them in enough of a variety of situations to get a good feel of its sound capability. And sure it is ok, but only ok, and only ok for alot of money. Dolby USED TO produce spectaculuar products, but they have discontinued doing that today. The 650 is around because it is cheap for Dolby to produce. It looks cheap, and has a cheap feel to it, it takes for ever to boot up. Software excluded I doubt it costs them much more to produce one than it costs Dell to produce an average home computer.

It is very simple to get better performance from any system with a CSP-1200. All you need to do is install one in place of ANY other cinema processor. It is that simple. Perhaps your customers can't tell the difference but ours can and as a result of the audible difference usually ask for the CSP before considering anything else.

Mark
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-23-2004, 09:06 PM:
 
Has anyone compared the sound quality of a CP65 with DA20 vs. CP500 vs. CP650? Comments?

(My own view on the whole "which digital format" issue is currently that SRD with penthouse readers is really the only choice. SDDS never works well for me, and there are too many films which are SRD only or which don't have disks for me to think that DTS would be a good choice.)
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-23-2004, 09:34 PM:
 
It slays me that there is still a problem with DTS disks shipping with the prints. The system is 12 years old, why haven't they fixed this by implementing a SERIOUS fine on the stupid theatres that keep the disks?

Having said that, I have had DTS here since 1994 and have only had maybe three or four instances of disks not arriving with the print...not a bad record considering we've played over 650 movies in that time; have only had one issue of a broken disk. Maybe we're just lucky in this part of the country.

We traded in our original DTS for the XD10 last year and I'm well satisfied with it.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-23-2004, 09:47 PM:
 
Wow...a whole dozen CP650s or so...that does indeed make you experienced...then again...your bias has shown through since that was more than you wanted....

I too have installed dozens of both CSPs and CP650s...as you say...bi-amped and tri-amped and these are often in discriminating rooms...one would be quite hard pressed to find audible faults in the CP650 rooms. The most recent screening room in a filming facility I was at had a CP650 and I didn't hear them saying there was any problem with the sound (and it wasn't my installation...I was working on the Kinotons).

To take the position that the DA-20/CSP1200 would inherently sound better is to almost take the position that the D/A converters in the DA-20 are superior to the D/A converters in the CP650. Is there a reason you would believe that? In a two-piece system one depends on the logic between the digital processor and the analog one to make smooth transitions...I've yet to find a system that wasn't obvious when it was switching between digital and analog. Remember, the DA-20 will wait until the last bit goes out the door before telling the host processor to go to SR.

The CP650 has some cost effective options too. If one gets the EX board(s) then they also get an AC-3 decoder for their DVDs or other video sources...including up to 6-channels of digital source. With the Cat. 778 card one can keep the digital audio in the digital domain and send it digitally to the crossovers and amps or choose a D/A converter of a quality they want.

I take exception to your quality statement in reference to the CP650 as compared to their previous products (I believe you used the wording they used to be spectacular). The CP650, if you are running a mainstream cinema is indeed a spectacular product. It is EXTREMELY reliable. Its service record has already past all other sound products I've ever used by Dolby or other brands. In our service area, we have had exactly ONE CP650 failure...glory be, it was the first one we installed too. And with a mere upload, all previous settings were restored. Not too shabby.

As to the cheezy front panel...I'll give you that one. And whom ever decided that format numbers, which only make sense for a CP200, should be used instead of the formats themselves should be shot. Then again, I have had negative comments on the CSP1200's look and feel with the cracky membrane switches that are near impossible to read in subdued lighting. So no body is perfect.

As to the cost of the CP650...this is a small industry and with comparatively small production...the CP650, after all of the engineering, marketing and support...plus semiconductor obsolesence, is not that cheap to make...far more than a Dell, dude.

The CP650 is a smart processor for them to make....if you have a typical mall theatre...it is easy to install right out of the box and it has the features you need.

If you need special venue customization...then that is a different story. The CP650 does only what the engineers wanted it to do...not what YOU want it to do. Analog processors almost always win in that contest.

Panastereo is still my #1 processor but I wouldn't dismiss the CP650 out of hand...sometimes it is the wiser choice. For my high-end systems...it is Panastereo...if you read some of Matt Jaro's posts he sure seems proud of his...and that is a 3-way system too!

Steve
 

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Posted by Matt Manalis (Member # 2367) on 07-24-2004, 05:38 AM:
 
i Didn't mean to start like a whole argument but thanks the feedback is great and is what i wanted to hear i am yet to make up my mind i am waiting on some prices from different places and my tech pointed out to me that if i wanted SRD with a CSP1200 it would end up costing me more then buying a CP650 so just gunna get some prices on both digital systems and work out what the mot cost effective system will be, THANKS again everyone
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-24-2004, 10:30 AM:
 
Steve,
I hope that the D to A converters in both the DA-20 and 650 are both doing the exact same job! Almost seems a must to me for them to do the same job so if one units chips are of newer design than the other is totally irrelevant to how a decoded SRD track sounds. Keep in mind of all the board revicions that have taken place in the DA-20 that incorporate many of the semiconductor revisions. Compare the boards in a first generation DA-20 and one made this year. BIG DIFFERENCE! The newer chips although performing the same functions probably use less power though.

>"The CP650 has some cost effective options too. If one gets the EX board(s) then they also get an AC-3 decoder for their DVDs or other video sources...including up to 6-channels of digital source."<

Thats hardly a cost effective to those that may want EX but never use the other options. This is all part of the scam that makes it cheaper for Dolby to produce the 650. Covering the R&D cost of other options by forcing people to have to buy them that may in all probibility never use them. The Panastereo EX decoder also wins hands down and its also the easiest to set up.

>"Then again, I have had negative comments on the CSP1200's look and feel with the cracky membrane switches that are near impossible to read in subdued lighting. So no body is perfect."<

I agree with that position. I've never been a fan of membrane panels but the lcd display somewhat makes up for that lack and all one has to do is to light the booth properly in order to see it. We normally spec out track lighting, and bright between show florescent lighting so seeing the buttons has never been an issue for us.

>"As to the cost of the CP650...this is a small industry and with comparatively small production...the CP650, after all of the engineering, marketing and support...plus semiconductor obsolesence, is not that cheap to make...far more than a Dell, dude."<

You are correct! The marketing and semiconductor obsolescence is part of what makes the 650 overly expensive to buy. The people buying the 650's are covering those hidden costs themselves in part by paying the overly high price for the unit. So I will change my mind a bit there and say that its not cheap, perhaps the cost of three Dell computers to produce, but its definately by far Dolbys cheapest to manufacture processor so far.

As for the "shopping center theatre" syndrome which you seem to be a part of, we too build theatres in shopping centers but have never classified them as "shopping center theatres". To us they are another theatre location that diserves the same attention and high end equipment that those screening rooms that you mentioned are getting. Except for the direct digital inputs how the 650 is better for a "shopping center theatrre", or screening room environment has somehow slipped by me. The CSP has proved itself better for us in all operating environments that don't require a direct digital input.

Mark
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 07-24-2004, 05:53 PM:
 
Now you're being silly if you're going to pretend to not know what Steve means. Obviously he is using "shopping center theatre" not to indicate lesser quality but simply a mainstream house that plays mainstream product exclusively. You put your money where it will do the most good and worry less about things that don't matter much in this context. For example if this discussion were taking place back in the CP500 era there wouldn't be much point in talking about the Cat222SR/A card for a theatre that will almost never play analog and uses it only for backup. If you know the booth will be run not by a thirty year veteran projectionist but by "booth ushers" then user friendliness becomes more of an issue. And so forth. I'm sure you take into account how the equipment will be used, too. If you'd rather call it a mainstream theatre than a shopping center theatre then so be it. Semantics only.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-24-2004, 06:32 PM:
 
Mainstream Theatres, Shopping Center theatres??? What planet are you guys from?? I would rather think in terms of projection system and theatre interior for a "Chain" that we do buisness with than either of the above nomenclatures. I do like the word "Chain" though as that does apply to a circuit of theatres usually owned by the same company. I think you would be hard pressed to find a theatre being built today as part of a major shopping center. The rent in those places is just too high even for the big chains to be in them. They learned the hard way already.

One processor operating easier than the other...? Well, the majority of our installs are very user friendly in that a 30 year veteran or an usher could run them. Most are automated so the processor operation(what ever processor it may be) is in fact handled by the automation. Training an operator to handle a 650, a USL JS series, A Smart Mod 7, or a CSP-1200 is basically the same, including the backup facilities. So from one type of processor to the other it is going to all operate pretty much the same way. Again I will bring up the ease of operation point in that the CSP-1200 boots up in mere seconds while the 650 takes a couple of minutes or more.

Brad said:

"Needless to say, Dolby doesn't screw the independents over'

I would be happy to introduce you to a few that would tell you differently if you'd like me to. You in fact actually already know one of them pretty well. The problems in all cases stemmed right from the top at Dolby. What I've observed over the last 23 years is that every company out there has screwed over independents pretty much to the same extent as the other.

Mark
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 07-24-2004, 07:25 PM:
 
Screw over or simply not grant the same favors? There's a difference. Is it unreasonable to do something for a customer who might represent thousands of units at the stroke of a pen that you might not do for someone else?
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 07-24-2004, 07:29 PM:
 
It might be unreasonable, but it is certainly the way of the *real* world.

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 07-24-2004, 09:30 PM:
 

 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-24-2004, 10:31 PM:
 
Fine Steve, call it a "favor". Would you like to hear the bedtime story of how DTS screwed me over with the unit in my screening room? Good, because here it comes...

I bought a new dts6-d for my screening room and had only put a handful of hours on it (several movies) before it started giving me fits. Now had that unit gone into a regular theater, it would've started failing within a couple of days and DTS would have quickly sent a replacement or replacement parts. However even though they knew how many hours my unit had on it, because it had just passed it's warranty point, it was a big fuck you I received towards warranty service. That is about as low as you can get and I did not appreciate spending more $$$ in the end to fix what was a lemon dts6-d player right out of the manufacturer's warehouse.

Ooooooh, what about the evil beasts from hell? (Yes I am speaking of the dts6-AD units, possibly the biggest excuse of a sound processor to evolve in the last 10 years.) I had to kick and scream at DTS for a few MONTHS just to get a friggin' cdrom with a firmware upgrade on it so the units would stop randomly playing the feature during intermission or non-timecoded prints. (Of course they couldn't just email an image file. That would've been too easy and far too quick of a solution.) Customer service? We don't need no stinkin' customer service! Yes indeedy, DTS loves their customers.

Seriously, I could go on with various bullshit ways DTS has treated people including customers of mine. However in my experience I cannot recall a time where Dolby screwed someone over. (Feel free to refresh my memory Mark.) You like DTS and they haven't bent you or your customers over yet, so fine...keep buying them, I don't care. Dolby has never screwed me over and their products do the job with better reliability than DTS has. The projectionists at theaters I service also unanimously prefer SRD to DTS. Oh yes and not like it's really all that big of a deal, at least Dolby has a decent sound trailer! DTS still has that insanely old flying disc and pathetically lame piano crap to "impress" customers with in their advertising.

I must agree with Schaffer though that this thread is pointless and is going nowhere. This Dolby vs. DTS debate has been done to death elsewhere. Do a search.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 07-24-2004, 11:12 PM:
 
My question was actually directed at Mark and his comment that every company out there has screwed over independents pretty much... I just don't think that's true.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-24-2004, 11:22 PM:
 
My apologies Steve, I misread your post.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 07-24-2004, 11:48 PM:
 
Not at all, your bedtime story was most enlightening.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-25-2004, 12:03 AM:
 
"My question was actually directed at Mark and his comment that every company out there has screwed over independents pretty much... I just don't think that's true."
_________________________________________________________________

Just ask any independent or small chain owner. They can fill your ears with alot of examples. There are those few companies, the smaller ones, that do treat all customers equally though. Generally thats why you find their equipment in many independently owned theatres even if its somewhat substandard.

I agree with Brad thouugh on the DTS vs. SRD debate. Both of them are excellent sounding systems and we get great service from both companies at CLACO. The CSP1200 vs. 650 debate is however a worthwhile arguement which has its merits.

Nighty night boys!

Mark
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-25-2004, 10:35 AM:
 
I know I wasn't trying to start (or finish) a CSP1200 vs CP650 debate on this thread. I was merely responding to what I felt were very wrong statements regarding the CP650 since those statements would not help the original question (which do I buy, DTS or Dolby).

Take, for instance, the recent EX statement:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen

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Thats hardly a cost effective to those that may want EX but never use the other options. This is all part of the scam that makes it cheaper for Dolby to produce the 650. Covering the R&D cost of other options by forcing people to have to buy them that may in all probibility never use them. The Panastereo EX decoder also wins hands down and its also the easiest to set up.

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The EX option on a CP650 is street price under $1000. It provides 4-channels of 1/3-octave EQ and also allows for auto-detection of surround-EX. Lastly there is not set up with it...you just tune all four surround quadrents.

The Pana SP23 (which is ineed an excellent unit). However, it costs more than the EX option on a CP650 with 1/3-Octave EQ...it only has 3-equalizers (again comparing same-same...1/3-Octave EQ) so in 5.1 mode, the SP23 uses only two of its 3 EQs...where as the CP650 will apply the proper EQ to all channels all the time. The SP23 doesn't currently offer Auto-EX detection...which in a main-stream theatre is a good feature since the word on Surround-EX is so poorly distributed.

So you have the CP650's EX option costing less and giving more...yet it is characterized as losing "hands down." How does that sort of "information" help with the original question of DTS or Dolby Digital? It is misinformation.

The CP650 is very relevent in the discussion since it is key nowadays to a Dolby Digital installation at its lowest cost.

As to D/A conversions...no not all are created equal. To presume the CP650 and the DA20 share the same devices or methods is silly. In fact, D/A conversion is often key as to how a digital device sounds. Sure the DA-20 has gone through a major board revision (older ones were through-hole Technology, current ones are surface-mount technology, SMT). Did they change the D/A converters on that revision beyond the package style? They did add a relay so, if properly modified one can have the subwoofer switch through. They still don't have Le and Re on the relay system...grrrrrr.

Now if you want to say the DA-20 is WAY overpriced and causing the DA20/CSP1200 system to be too much you'd have something. If you wanted to compare the SP23 to the SA-TEN again you'd have something...the SA-10 costs more and does less and takes up more rack space not doing it.

So back to the original question...if one is going the Dolby Digital route...the CP650 is an excellent choice if your theatre fits within its design contraints. Most theatres do indeed fit. If your are going the DTS route...then the CSP1200/XD-10 is an excellent choice.

Steve
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-25-2004, 12:01 PM:
 
Okay lets agree that the D/A converters are the problem and lets just go back to analogue 4 track mag prints exclusively
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 07-25-2004, 01:03 PM:
 
Let's go back to Vitaphone.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 07-25-2004, 02:12 PM:
 
Wurlitzer.

If you really need to hear a human voice get a Benshi.
 

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Posted by Ron Yost (Member # 1850) on 07-25-2004, 02:49 PM:
 
WurliTzer



Ron Yost
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-25-2004, 03:32 PM:
 
I did a little more research on the DA-20...The D/A conversion is done on the Cat. 686 card (18-bit D/A). Have there been any major updates on that card since the DA-20 came out? Next time I pop open a DA-20...I'll take a look-see. In my post above, I thought the Cat. 611 or 611A had the D/A. The 611A is the card that has the SMT updates. I'd have to defer to someone like Ken at Dolby as to any improvements that have been made in the DA-20 or CP650 but I stand behind that it is most likely that the CP650, with many years of later technology would be afforded better D/A converters.

Steve
 

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Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 07-25-2004, 04:18 PM:
 
DTS and Dolby are both capable of excellent sound.

The theatre where I worked was equipped with DTS, SDDS and Dolby Digital, including one (EX) screen.

Problems do exist with all digital formats, and ya know what...it was always the old fashioned analog track that saved the day!

Without getting into all kinds of audiophile technobabble, I'll say this:

Dolby in some form is more or less standard issue on todays prints.

DTS is not necessarily standard issue, especially with film studios/production companies associated with Sony!

Keeping track of DTS discs can be a real pain, especially where minimum wage kids run the booth. Lord knows how many times kids "forget" to load the updated disc for the proper trailers, forget to change-out discs on a double feature screen...etc, etc!

Also at my old theatre, I regularly ran "sneak features", press screenings, etc...and the discs would not be issued for these screenings! And there would be an occasional mis-shipment of discs from the distributor.
 

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Posted by Jeremy Fuentes (Member # 2135) on 07-25-2004, 05:32 PM:
 

quote: Will Kutler

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especially where minimum wage kids run the booth. Lord knows how many times kids "forget"

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I would say that maybe somebody should pay these kids more, but that has been discussed over and over again, so nevermind.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-25-2004, 07:12 PM:
 
While I agree with Jeremy, I have seen professionally ran booths occasionally forget to move discs when other things were happening, such as needing to work on a down auditorium, or some last minute auditorium change because of a rental while trying to build new films for the weekend and such. SRD never has that problem.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-25-2004, 09:15 PM:
 
networked XD10's and it isn't a problem either
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-25-2004, 09:30 PM:
 
From the point of view as a customer, I would be pretty annoyed with the booth staff if they forgot to load the correct DTS discs or just not load them at all. Out of all the things one has to do in operating a projection booth, loading the correct DTS discs is one of the most simple tasks on the list. It is certainly a lot easier than correctly threading a print.

This is one specific reason why I flatly refuse to visit the mall theater in my town, because I know for a fact they rarely ever bother to load the CDs in their two DTS equipped auditoriums. At least for this theater, I call it laziness and not a fault at all of the format. Hell, this theater doesn't even have automations worth a damn and they have to manually punch in optical stereo surround much of the time (whenever they bother to do it). It is that bad.

Perhaps I might be more tolerant of DTS disc use errors if the multiplex has a multiple digital format environment, which would add to the confusion. I've never seen the Carmike theater here mess up any DTS shows. Since they have DTS on every screen, the same procedure has to be followed unless it is one of those rare cases where a movie has no DTS discs.

I've always been a big DTS fan. But overall, I think a multiplex should be equipped with one digital format on every screen -be it Dolby Digital or DTS. Mixing up the two could arguably buy trouble. At the very least, a mixed environment makes it difficult to use the sound format snipes on a print. It seems the best thing to do is go all the way with one format. And then if another format is needed have it in one or two rollaround carts so it can follow that print.
 

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Posted by Kyle Watkins (Member # 986) on 07-25-2004, 09:45 PM:
 
How long does the DTS drives usally last and the LED of dolby readers. And what is the cost difference between them.
Kyle
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 07-25-2004, 10:31 PM:
 
I am donating a handful of question marks for Kyle.
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 07-25-2004, 10:39 PM:
 

quote: Bobby Henderson

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It is certainly a lot easier than correctly threading a print.

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It might be harder to up, but it's actually more time consuming.

quote: Gordon McLeod

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networked XD10's and it isn't a problem either

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quote: Kyle Watkins

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How long does the DTS drives usally last and the LED of dolby readers. And what is the cost difference between them.

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Lifespan and cost not worth considering at less than 15 cents a day for either.
 

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Posted by Kyle Watkins (Member # 986) on 07-25-2004, 11:16 PM:
 
I though every one was a mind reader and new what i was thinking. What i was refering too was the cost of upgrade to buy new Drives and buying a new LED. Im sure it differs form one dealer to another.
The theater im at now has 14 DTS units, and 2 Dolby digtal. Not sure when the building open someware 3-5 years old now. I had to do 3 upgrades this week on DTS drives. If life span is say 3-5 years and lets just say (not sure thogh) if the LED last 3-5 years. In the long run the cost can add up. That if any one looks at the cost in the long run.

Kyle
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-25-2004, 11:45 PM:
 
An led for SRD is far cheaper than a set of replacement drives for DTS. Plus remember, DTS leds in their reader die too.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 07-26-2004, 12:02 AM:
 
You're paying way too much for replacement drives if there's a comparable difference in price over their lifetime.

Some places sell SCSI CD-ROM drives for as little as $15.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-26-2004, 01:07 AM:
 
Someone needs to let DTS know that then.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 07-26-2004, 01:09 AM:
 
I'm sure they already know they're making a nice bit of coin on spares. It's not like disc drives are their only overpriced off the shelf part.
 

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Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 07-26-2004, 01:21 AM:
 
Michael, that's twice in one thread you had me rolling with laughter.
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 07-26-2004, 02:20 AM:
 

quote: Michael Schaffer

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Let's go back to Vitaphone.

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Nahhhhh.... "Mirrophonic"!!

Hmmmmmmm..... Best projector, best lamp, best automation, best sound system... biggest (?) ummm.. screen...

Geez... it's sure easy to get you guys riled up around here!
 

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Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 07-26-2004, 03:49 AM:
 
What is the price of a Vitaphone pick-up needle ?
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 07-26-2004, 03:59 AM:
 
I heard DTS will sell you one at cost!

See if they'll throw in some of their new snipes that are coming out last summer.
 

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Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 07-26-2004, 05:56 AM:
 
Vitaphone disk playback would become "unacceptable" after about 40 playbacks with the skip resistant several pound weight pick up head. Based on observation of clients and usage are getting 4 - 6 years on the DTS drives, 5 - 6 years on the DTS reader, 11/2 to 4 years on the Dolby type LED.....we can also talk about the Sony Led array ( forest ) in the old SDDS penthouse
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-26-2004, 09:58 AM:
 
Well considering the laser playback unit over in film yak vitaphone should last forever
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 07-26-2004, 10:40 AM:
 
I used to be pro-DTS all the way, but have since changed to mixed feelings between DTS and SRD for various reasons.

I used to like DTS better because it never dropped out. But that was before I learned of all the little adjustments on a Simplex that would rub off the SRD if not adjusted correctly. The Simplex Millenium circa 1998 without the intermittent shoe modification was notoriuous for this.

My main gripe with DTS right now are those STUPID DVD CASES that they ship the discs in!! They are ALWAYS smashed to bits in the can, sometimes with the discs out of them. Did anyone give them feedback on these? Why are they still using them? In this case, the discs are so damaged that DTS drops out.

As for SRD, if you will be running a lot of arthouse prints or international films, SRD is pretty much the standard digital format. On the used prints we've been getting recently, the SRD track looks fine visually most of the time, so I'd assume it would play fine. OTOH, we've gotten many instances where we didn't get discs for DTS, or they were damaged, or the wrong ones.

So it's really a "crap shoot" if you're second run, where there's a tossup between getting the discs and not having the SRD track damaged. But for a first-run or arthouse theater, I would say SRD is your best bet.

If DTS would ship their discs in something the size of an actual reel, (Reel 0?) and the people in charge would fine the theater as if the print was missing a reel, maybe more discs would get shipped back.

It seems like Dolby Digital is the format that will "prevail" in the end in some form or another.

=TMP=
 

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Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 07-26-2004, 06:11 PM:
 
Gordon,

Can be XD10s networked yet?

Bye
A
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-26-2004, 08:52 PM:
 
I'm replacing two Dolby LEDs tommrrow morning. These LED's are 5 years old and were not hooked up to turn on and off with the projector motor or via the automation.... so they burned continously. Both have multiple segments that are out. Hooking the led's supply across the motor or other available automation switching circuit greatly extends their life span. Dolby LED's will typically have a street price of 75.00 to 90.00 these days depending on your dealers markup.

As for life span of DTS drives, I can't honestly say. The original metal die cast Jurassic Park Drives lasted a long time anad many are still running today. The worst were the 3rd version Toshiba but then I can't remember anything really good that Toshiba has ever made. Once a DTS player has been upgraded to Teac drives they generally don't fail.... I've never had to replace a Teac drive after an upgrade myself. Other than power supply fans which are an easy fix DTS had one other fairly common failure in 6D's and these occasionally pop up... and that was the DC convertor for the analog output stage. DTS used to be willing to supply them but they no longer will. they aare fairly easy to replace and we get them directly from the present manufacturer that supplies them to DTS. The symptom is a green digital light but no output.

As for networkking an XD-10, its not yet possible to do it but will be sometime in the near future. Its just a matter of software and adding another card. Then prints can be moved at will around a multiples and audio will come over from what ever player it was loaded into.

Mark @ CLACO
(Live from Fallon, NV.)
 

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Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 07-26-2004, 09:02 PM:
 
I have had to replace some Teac drives recently. They just stopped reading the discs and replacement was the only solution. It was only one drive in two different units. It had been four or five years since the upgrade.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 07-26-2004, 10:08 PM:
 
Teac 16x SCSI drives have a MTBF of 100,000 POH. After applying a realism factor of 1/3, four or five years isn't too shabby.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-27-2004, 11:44 PM:
 
Thats about what I would expect out of them. I have a bunch approaching that age so time will tell.

Mark @ CLACO
(Eating my way back across Nevada!)
 

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