Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: What to carry in the tool case when doing sound checks and setups..

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Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 08-01-2004, 11:29 PM:

Hello all!
I've been wondering lately what kind of tools and supplies I'd carry in the tool cases when going to a theatre to do a sound setup or a repair.in some of these cases, I don't go with my car and having to travel by bus I can't carry everything with me so I try to have only the most important tools and supplies that'll allow me to do the work without problems,howhever,I'm always leaving soemthing behind or then taking too many things with me that I end not using so I'd like to know some opinions about what stuff should be in the tool cases all the times when doing a service call for sound setups/repairs.
Currently I have carried around:
screwdrivers ( all kinds and sizes + an allen set with SAE(?) and metric kinds)
wire cutter/stripper
soldering iron (20 and 40W)
box with several crimp-type terminals + crimping tool
shrink tube (for cable terminations)
multimeter + clamp meter ( the later for rectifier repair/adjustment)
SPL meter
oscilloscope
box with test films (L/R, buzz,pink noise and dolby tone/1Khz tone)
some footage of diverse kind of cables and wires.
colored insulation tapes (mostly for cable/wiring coding)
at least one sound cell.
a box with diverse IC's,transistors and other components.

Well, that's it.. is there anything i'm missing there or that I'm carrying around without the need for it?
Also, with the led/reverse readers, did the test films get any change? or I can keep using the same films used for exciter-based readers? BTW..where do you techs gets your tests films? mine are reaching the time for replacement again and I haven't received any reply to any of my emails I sent to theatre suppliers since last week,need advice on this again [Smile]

Oh.. and I know I didn't include an RTA/spectrum analyser in the list.. well, I have used one from linear X, formerly used in car audio competitions and setups. I don't carry it around all the time since I have to carry my desktop comp to have it, I use only when setting up a real sound processor ( with 1/3 oct. eq's and so on) other processors with smaller eq's I do by ear. not the right way I know but that's what can be done. once I can aford a real,stand alone analyser things will get better. however I didn't have any complaint from any theatre owner regarding the sound eq until now..

So.. what do you techs say? [Smile]

ah! btw.. I had to go back to the theatre tech scene.. it took only one visit to a theatre booth to make me miss all of it.couldn't stay away [Smile]

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-02-2004, 01:31 AM:

How about pink noise cards and/or a signal generator and phase checker?

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 08-02-2004, 08:03 PM:

Sometimes,not always, I'll have a small, batery-operated Af signal generator, it's a home built one and I use mostly to find out which speaker wire goes where in the auditorium as it's an habit of about many here not mark the wires and they're usually one of the first things that gets messed up (just faced one of such mess today [Frown]

) Considering the variety of processors a tech can find here, and that some requires especific PN cards,those'd end being expensive since I'd have to get a few of them and not having a lot of calls along the year it's something I have to think quite a bit about before going ahead and buying anything. Didn't consider a phase checker yet.
Most of the theatres I get called to do something in it are 2nd run or small theatres, often in a small/medium city those will have about anything from mono tube systems to hand made creepy preamp and amplifier ( and it's stereo!) to home theatre receivers with a preamp card made with a prototyping board stuffed inside it. The only thing close to a real processor that I'm having fun with lately are a few Starscopes ( and their many clones made here) wich doesn't seem to need PN cards and other sophisticated gear to have it up and running,but a few of those surely drives me nuts sometimes [scream]

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 08-02-2004, 10:21 PM:

You should be able to get replacement test films through International Cinema Equipment in Miami (Florida, USA)

(305) 573-7339

That's my supplier.

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 08-02-2004, 10:29 PM:

Thanks Manny!
Will contact them tomorrow morning and see what comes out [Smile]

Posted by Peter Hall (Member # 695) on 08-03-2004, 01:01 PM:

I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving a theatre without running my Jiffy film - probably the single most useful bit of kit. A good RTA is second, and a strong cup of coffee third (OK, second !)

Posted by Ferdinando Innocenti (Member # 2477) on 08-03-2004, 04:35 PM:

You can align red-light-based readers with the same films you use for white-light-based readers. Look at the scope for having the right voltage.

I think that a cat. 85 (pink noise generator) and a cat 67 (extender for equalizer modules) are really useful for Dolby CP55 and CP65.

I always take a RTA with me, if I think it could be not so important I take one on my notebook, which is really cheap: I aligned it with a scope, a signal generator and an expensive RTA (Arta80).

I always bring up a led for the reverse reader (Dolby DPN 83308) because I often happened to see some falls in the scope.

And all the manuals of Film-Tech on your notebook!

Ciao
Nando

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 08-04-2004, 01:49 AM:

I've heard about the Jiffy film here on FT but don't know what it is or it's contents. for testing purposes after setting up a sound system,I carry part of a feature's reel and put it to run,sit in the auditorium and listen to it,sometimes I add a few traillers and even another part of a reel from another feature.That's how I learned it and is how I did see some good techs do their work.Is this Jiffy film hard to find or expensive?
I'd find them at the same supplier that has hte other test films?
The extender card for the CP's equalizers is something I don't have and will need sometime either at a theatre or for myself since I have a CP50 that ,if I don't sell everything until the day,I'll have setup in my screening room. I don't think Dolby still makes those boards ,where I should look for one?

Again, for RTA, I have a computer-based one,since it requires a specific,own board,I can't have it running with a notebook [Frown]

When I need to use it, I have to take my desktop comp. with me .
I'm looking for a good,compact stand alone unit and will get one as soon the things here let me to. [Smile]

Reverse scans here aren't everywhere yet,and none of the theatres I service have them so instead of Led's ,I still carry exciters in the toolcase [Big Grin]

,but at least one theatre owner is concerned about the reverse readers and is looking for a low cost,kind of standard kit that can be installed in about any projector ( most of his are Brazilian-made projector)

Manuals.. ah yes..I don't have 'em all but the ones from processors I know I'll find in a boot I already downloaded,printed and took to bed with me to read [Smile]

Now.. someone at Iceco could reply to my email about the test films .. [Roll Eyes]

that's not the first time I email 'em about
that and get no reply.. [Frown]

Posted by Ferdinando Innocenti (Member # 2477) on 08-04-2004, 02:26 AM:

Dolby still makes cat 67 (extender board for eq), it's about 300 $.

For substitution of exciter lamps, you can look at laser devices, which are less expensive than led-reverse-readers and are simple to install where the exciter lamp was. There are a lot of model, (almost!) one for every kind of projector.

Ciao
Nando

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-04-2004, 03:48 AM:

Component Engineering make a compatible pink noise card for CP55 and CP65, the SG-1. Many say the pink noise quality is better than from the Dolby Card, but I have not had the opportunity to verify that myself. But it does have some additional functions, you can use an external power supply and make it output test signals whithout plugging it in, and it has a very useful sine sweep function.
You can survive without the extender card. One strategy is to remove front channel cards (but make sure not to confuse them), then you can plug the C eq card into the R slot and hook up the outputs to the C amplifier. Then you can reach inside and work on the card while it is plugged in. Repeat for L (remember to connect the output accordingly!), finally for R. Then put in all the cards, make sure you haven't confused the wiring, run a final check, set the levels.
Really cool people have the Ivie IE-33 which is a good analyzer, signal generator, SPL meter, RMS volt meter (up to 20V), and basic oscilloscope (not fast enough for Dolby Digital readers, but more than adequate for analog A-chains), all in one small PocketPC unit. But I didn't mention that before because I didn't want to make you jealous.

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 08-04-2004, 06:45 PM:

Ouch!.. $300 for a extender card? what does it have that makes it cost all that much? I always thought it was just a piece of printed circuit with conectors at both ends ( never seen one tho). Michael's idea isn't all that bad,but makes the eq'ing process longer and there's the risk of swapping channels at the end. I might consider it in case I can't find a extender card at a good price.

Nando,what laser devices are those? I remember someone here on FT pointing me to a website about laser readers, but it's price was about the same of a complete reverse scan kit,I don't recall the name right now. it's not the same device by chance? is there any site with information about them I'd take a look?

Michael, I know you have the Ivie thing for quite some time, you told about it lotsa times to many people here and in hte char toom [Smile]

And no, I'm not jealous of it [Smile]

. I think the only funcion of it i'd use is the RTA since I have all the other gear for SPL metering and signal generating, it'd decrease hte number of things I'd have to carry around tho, except for the oscilloscope,I'm not too fond of LCD screens for such use,still prefer the crt-based 'scopes.Once I saw a RTA at a audio store where I live that looked like a pocket pc but it was only an RTA, don't remember the name anymore since it was about 2 years ago,maybe an earlier verson of the Ivie?

Posted by Ferdinando Innocenti (Member # 2477) on 08-05-2004, 04:09 AM:

Luciano,
I installed Voigt ACL for Kinoton FP20/30, but Future Projections’ is cheaper.
But I have never seen one of these.

Then, to avoid replacement of the entire sound head, you can look at Jaxlight by USL (led devices, but not in reverse mode)

You can find more information about on www.dyetracks.org in section “Red Reader Manufacturers”

Ciao
Nando

Posted by David Graham Rose (Member # 1450) on 08-05-2004, 02:04 PM:

Greetings All

In addition to all the items already stated in previous postings, I always ensure that my hearing trumpet is packed, since I am deficient in the audio spectrum between 300kHz and 3000kHz

Goodnight from Cambridge

David

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-05-2004, 07:25 PM:

S-O-O-O-R-R-Y-T-O-H-E-E-E-A-A-A-R-T-H-A-T!!!

Was that loud enough?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-05-2004, 10:33 PM:

Luciano, Glad to see you're back!!

Mark

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 08-05-2004, 11:26 PM:

Ummmm... I don't have a hearing trumpet...but.. I have a multicellular horn w/o the drivers from an old RCA speaker system.. maybe that'll work in place of the trumpet? [Big Grin]

Nando, I believe the laser kit I saw was the Voigt, to me it's price wasn't much different than a complete reverse scan kit.
also never saw or heard about the Future Projection kit.

I've been thinkering with laser diodes and compact modules but all I managed to do is burn a few of them and produce spots instead of lines [Embarrassed]

Hello again Mark! [Smile]

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 08-06-2004, 01:47 AM:

Dolby's "Jiffy" Film costs about $300 (US). It's 8-10mins of a variety of sound tests and some picture tests. There are on-screen "cues" that tell you what to look/listen for.

The Dolby film is great but I believe that a portable RTA is more of a priority for you at this particular point in time.

Your partial reel may be just fine. I have the "Jiffy" film and I still use a discarded reel from an actual movie. When it comes to your test reel, try to use the same test material all the time. Get to know that soundtrack inside-out.

I do not use trailers because they do not sound like movies. They are generally too loud and contain too many sound effects and not enough clean dialogue.

Does your test reel have a decent dialogue passage with nice "average" voices (male and female)? Does it have good examples of stereo, surround and low-end effects? Does it include loud passages as well as quiet ones? What about music?

Most importantly, do you know what it's supposed to sound like?

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 08-06-2004, 07:00 PM:

Manny, you're right when you said that an RTA is a priority for me
carrying a computer around isn't easy or fun,I'll be visitng a few pro audio stores in town to see if I can find anything.
About the "test reel" I use,actually 2 of them in the case are made of:
Half of a feature reel,from a war movie in one and an action movie on the other
3~4 traillers ,at least one of them being a kind of music clip
and to finish the end credits of any other movie,one has orchestral music ( film score) and the other music from bands.
The part of the war film is the best to test the system as it's a sequence that alterns between silence with low dialogue and then loud passages ( from bomb explosions) and panic voices. it also has the sonar effects in the surrounds since the scene is inside a submarine. all the dialoge has male voices tho. The same doesn't happen on the other reel as it's from a scene that occours inside a car at high speed with both male and female voices and the usual freeway noises in the surrounds plus other sounds and passages in it. (not going to mention here the film names btw..)
And, yes I know what to expect in the auditorium when playing those reels, all the selected parts and traillers are material I ran when working as a projectionist for many times. and nope.. I didn't take the traillers nor the reel parts from the theatre I worked at [Smile]

I got them tru the right way ,asking for them,with a help of a friend who knew the right people for it [Cool]

When you contacted International Cinema Equipment ( ICECO) regarding the setup/test films you needed,did you do it by phone or email?
I sent 'em an email about them and until now, no reply .. [Frown]

Posted by Erick Akers (Member # 875) on 08-06-2004, 07:42 PM:

Since no one has mentioned an Audio Spectrum Analyzer,

I thought might as well,as I never travel without one on a sound job.

they can be very handy in locating dead areas when used in conjunction along with Pink Noise.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 08-06-2004, 08:02 PM:

I always use the terms "audio spectrum analyzer" and "real-time analyzer" (RTA) interchangeably.

No problem if you haven't got female voices on your reel. If I had to choose, I would say that most mature male voices seem better suited than most female voices as far as testing the performance of a speaker during dialog playback. A segment of Martin Sheen's voice-over narration in "Apocalypse Now" would be in my "dream test reel."

As for ICECO, I always call them up on the phone.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-06-2004, 08:28 PM:

"Really cool people have the Ivie IE-33 " [Confused]

__________________________________________________

Actually that line above is supposed to read....

Really cool people have the THX R-2, or better yet the D-2 and keep the Ivie as a back up

Mark

Posted by Erick Akers (Member # 875) on 08-06-2004, 08:30 PM:

RTA!!!

Durrr!

It's ben a long week out in the heat Manny.

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 08-06-2004, 10:16 PM:

To me, RTA and audio spectrum analyser is the same equipment [Smile]

THX??? eeeewwwwww.. no,thanks.. I'm not going to spend money with something that has that name and does the same as any other equipment but costs 10 times more just because that sign..
Ok.. maybe the R2 has something else than the others,I can't say .. never saw one before.. but I'm not fond of anything that carries that three letters.

ah.. bum.. looks like I'll have to pick up the phone and make an international call to ICECO.. uh oh.. me and my lousy pronounciation(sp?) [Embarrassed]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-06-2004, 11:06 PM:

Luciano,
I don't really like those three letters that much either.... They've gotten to be pretty meaningless these days but the R-2 is worth every penny it costs. A purpose built analyzer like this is far more effective than most others would be. You could buy a new D-2 which does not carry the three letters. Its the replacement for the R-2. It costs half of what the R-2 did and is alot more portable than the R-2. www.acoustx.us

Mark

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-07-2004, 04:02 AM:

Whatever the merits of the R-2 or D-2 systems are, in Luciano's case it would certainly be an overkill. It appears as if most of the equipment in his cinemas isn't even "proper" cinema equipment, but adapted for cinema use.
Since you already seem to have a desktop PC-based analyzer package, why don't you simply try to find a decent used notebook for the same setup? In addition to being much more protable than the desktop, you can also have all the manuals on the notebook, and you can run a software oscilloscope. This will not be suitable for digital A-chains, but it looks like you don't have a lot of these anyway. The drawback of software scopes is that the 2 traces often have a little phase error, so you need to test it against an analog scope to find out how much the phase error is. You can also use the notebook to play test signals which you can manufacture in an audio editor or record from a CD. You would have to calibrate your software for the notebook's sound card and also use an eq setting for the output as it is very unlikely that the sound card output is flat, but once you have done that, you are much more mobile than before. The rest of your equipment you can carry around in a flight case with rollers underneath and an extendable handle.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-07-2004, 08:08 AM:

"Whatever the merits of the R-2 or D-2 systems are, in Luciano's case it would certainly be an overkill."

Well, Like I always said.... You can do the job or you can do the job the right way......

With the D-2 being priced at $3495.00 U.S. its actually pretty inexpensive for a cinema type spectrum analyzer.

Mark

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-07-2004, 08:59 AM:

Yes, Mark, we all know you are the only one who does everything right. But this thread isn't about your greatness, but to give Luciano some helpful tips for expanding his toolkit. I gather from his posts that he has to be as mobile as possible since he doesn't have a car, and also that his budget isn't very big.
Unless of course I have misunderstood this and Luciano tells us he will be happy to spend $3500 spontaneously.
Like I said, it looks like a lot of the equipment he works with isn't even "real" cinema equipment, so the best he can do is to set it up somehow satisfyingly. For that he doesn't need the most advanced tools on the market, but he needs some cost effective clever solutions to make it a bit easier for him.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-07-2004, 09:08 AM:

Michael,
Geez man lighen up a bit and don't take things so seriously. I knew you would fall for the trap! The post was meant to tease you not suggest to him to buy one. Of course he's not goimng to run out and get one. Now I'll just bet that you were up all night just waiting for my post [Wink]

.

Mark

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 08-07-2004, 11:53 AM:

Mark, that was hilarious!

(You got me there too, btw)

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-07-2004, 12:03 PM:

He didn't get either you or me. He was completely serious, but my reply was simply too well formulated. Mark is never wrong about anything, and when he is cornered, it was just a joke.
BTW, $3500 really isn't outrageously expensive, considering what analyzing systems used to cost.
But if I had so much to spend on equipment, I would probably pass on the D-2 and get one of the USL screen lighting systems instead.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-07-2004, 03:07 PM:

Michael,

I'm flattered that you think I'm never wrong but I disagree with you there for sure [Smile]

. Actually I am wrong alot of the time!! Indeed it was a trap set up for you to fall into, not meant for anyone else really. Did you ever call Acoustx yet about the advantages of the D-2?(No I bet)
The USL light meter is also highly reccomended. We have unit Serial number 1 here at CLACO. It can be time consuming to use but again... just do it..... or do it right... definately comes into play when the best tools are at hand.

Mark

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 08-07-2004, 03:54 PM:

uh.. oy..
Allright friends,no argueing here [Smile]

The D2 system is surely nice but it's a bit too much for me in both terms, equipment and costs, $3500.00 may not sound too much for you all but have in mind I live somewhere and there is a exchange rate, so instead of it costing me $3500,0 it'll end being $11.100.00,(in my currency) with that I can by a better,newer car.
To clear some points, as Michael said, most of the equipment I have to deal with aren't real processors, most of them are Eprad's starcope clones,in rare occasions I'll see a CP50 still running with the same cards it had when left the factory decades ago.and only one I saw something newer, a CP45 in a somewhat new theatre.aside from that, stuff I'll find in a booth is a home theatre processor running with a hand-made preamp board ( did see such setup in a duplex theatre in a decent mall),home made stereo only systems and even mono systems.
That doesn't mean I won't get a better, real system to work with,it's just that msot of the theatres I'd get called for servicing are 2nd run houses and to many of them,anything that comes out from the speakers and from the port window will do, the audience however doesn't agree most of time.. nor do I..
What I want is having the tools and test gear that will allow me to do the work right without spending lots and that it'd be carried around in the event I get to travel by bus to service a theatre in a place too far or that'd make a car trip expensive and annoying ( I don't really like to drive for hours,even making stops from time to time) I have a car however and surely uses it to go to theatres near me or in cities that won't exceed a 3 hour trip but sometimes I prefer going by bus. and that same tools and equipment would be used for any kind of systems, from a creepy wanna be processor to real ones ( like Dolby,USL and so on ).
About digital systems, only had to deal with one once in all this years.

Posted by Dennis M Dow Jr (Member # 1970) on 08-07-2004, 05:45 PM:

If I am not mistaken, the USL multiplexer is a cheaper alternative to the R-2 D-2 multiplexers..... Dont remember what the exact price is but I believe it is around $1500 us. and it will work when the theaters upgrade to newer equipment

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-07-2004, 07:47 PM:

Dennis,

FYI: I was told the D-2 plexer is an adapted version of the USL unit. Its adapted to work with the D-2 software and to normalize the gains of the mics automatically among other things.

Mark

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 08-08-2004, 10:56 PM:

Well then,
From the posts I read here, I see I'm not too much off in terms of toold and test equipment, the only actual issue I have is the RTA and hte PN generator,the first I have but isn't very portable, so I'm going to dump it and get a portable. At one time I used a portable one, with the size of a construction brick but can't remember it's brand, ir ran on internal batteries or with a small power supply plugged on the wall. one like that would be fine for me. For the PN generators, I'll get some prices ( again the short budget grounding me down ) if they're somewhat expensive for the moment, might end assembling one ( DIY again! )

Now I gotta stop being shy, breath deep ,grab the phone and call iceco about the test films.. that's because I write a little better than I speak [Embarrassed]

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-08-2004, 11:35 PM:

Why don't you look into getting a moderately priced notebook as a basic analyzer and scope solution like I suggested above? Apparently you already have a software analyzer in that desktop computer.

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 08-09-2004, 12:18 AM:

Michael, I already thought of that but a laptop would't help because the RTA package I have has a card that has to be installed in the computer. it's use leans more toward car audio and his big feature is SPL metering instead of real time analysing. (the card is the rta filters from what I was told) for RTA it needs to some tweaking and calibrations against a stand alone rta in order to do the work right,I'll be dropping it sometime soon in order to get a real unit ( considering the Ivie atm)

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-09-2004, 12:56 AM:

This will cost you around $1500, but you get a good analyzer/2-channel scope (again, only suitable for analog A-chains)/phase checker/signal generator/SPL meter/RMS volt meter (only for audio signals! it only takes up to 20V!!!) in one small handy unit. Remember the jacket and mic are also available separately from the iPaq. You can chose a different iPaq model, or try to find an older one (it has to be at least 3950) cheaper. Then you should make an extension cable so that you can position the mic in the auditorium. Again, using a multiplexer would be better, but you can also obtain results by moving the mic and averaging yourself or using the Ivie's inbuilt curve storage and subtraction feature. In any case, it's going to be a big step forward from the equipment you have now. The good thing is, you can play pink noise and other test signals from the unit, or you can edit your own signals and play them as wav or mp3 files. Amazingly, the output of the iPaq is flat (or maybe Ivie calibrated the pink noise to the output, in any case it reads flat up to 20kHz when you loop it back to the analyzer).
Then you need the test films and the mechanical and electrical tools you already described.
Plus, you will be cooler than Mark then!

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-09-2004, 11:49 AM:

"Michael, I already thought of that but a laptop would't help because the RTA package I have has a card that has to be installed in the computer. it's use leans more toward car audio and his big feature is SPL metering instead of real time analysing. (the card is the rta filters from what I was told) for RTA it needs to some tweaking and calibrations against a stand alone rta in order to do the work right,I'll be dropping it sometime soon in order to get a real unit "

If that is the Linear X one they have a black box to allow it to be used with a laptop

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 08-09-2004, 12:41 PM:

That's the one I have, pcRTA jr. from linearX. there is another version of it, the pcRTA , has some other features and has it's own plexer, takes 4 mics and is suitable for theatre use ( it's listed for that in their website) the jr. version seems intended more for car audio competitions since it has the scoring routines for most of them.
The portable RTA I mentioned somewhere in another post of mine,is the Ivie IE-30,doesn't seem it's still in production nowadays..

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-10-2004, 01:20 AM:

The IE-30A is still listed on the website, but it will cost you more than twice as much as the IE-33. It sometimes shows up on ebay, but you will have a hard time getting one without spending too many $$$ as many want to have it.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-10-2004, 10:30 PM:

"Plus, you will be cooler than Mark then!"

Now come on Michael, no ones cool till they carry around a Tektronix 465 scope for their daily work. It weighs more than your complete tool box does [Big Grin]

. Classic scopes rule!

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 08-10-2004, 11:25 PM:

I guess that means I'm as cool as Mark.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-11-2004, 01:32 AM:

No mini Leader scopes rule ask Lonny [Smile]

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 08-11-2004, 02:02 AM:

Well if I ever find the SOB who stole my Leader scope from my office I'll be as cool as Lonny and Gord again too.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-11-2004, 07:44 PM:

Dos rules there fore you are cool

Posted by Zach McQuaid (Member # 613) on 08-11-2004, 07:47 PM:

Yeahhhh!

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 08-12-2004, 01:43 AM:

Kickass!

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 08-16-2004, 10:45 PM:

I took the day to hunt for RTA's,didn't look for a specific model,although asked around for the Ivie.. I got the " what the f.... is it" look from all the people I asked about on several places. Only one seemed to remember the name and from what he told me, it was the older Ivie RTA..but none of the places had it.
What i'd find was an AudioControl,but was freaking expensive and in 5 places I went,was pointed to me as an alternative a Behringer(?)
unit that is an equalizer, feedback killer ,RTA and some other things, all in one equipment, it's price isn't the best for me yet,but is the more acessible unit I found until now.Since one of the places I went is where I buy and send theatre owners to by their speakers, they'd sell me a combo ( unit, mic and mic extension cable) for the price of the unit alone.( it doesn't come with the mic or extension cable)
Does anyone knows of this unit, has seen one in operation,etc and can tell anything about it? I know it's a unit intended for PA systems but maybe it'd do the job for equalizing theatres... my guess tho..

and why in the hell no one wants to sell me the damm test films !? [Mad]

wasted my time trying to get them from a theatre supplier from here who advertise having them for sale in his damm site but tells me that has them but is for their use and won't sell me even a half feet... bah he can stuff it all up there.. that's a palce I won't come back again,even if it's the last place on earth that'll have whathever I may need in the future [Mad]

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 08-16-2004, 11:22 PM:

The Behringer unit you speak of kicks much ass, but it won't work for what you want to do. Not very well anyway.

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 08-16-2004, 11:27 PM:

Umm..
That's what I'm thinking.. it's main use is in PA-like systems not theatres. I'll keep looking for a real rta around here for a while.
Anyway.. any other's opinions about that unit? [Smile]

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-17-2004, 02:12 AM:

I will talk on the phone tomorrow with the dealer in Mexico who does our locations there. Sure, Mexico isn't Brazil, but maybe he can tell me who you can buy the films from in your area.
Don't waste your time looking in shops for pro stuff like an RTA. Did it never occur to you to look on the internet? Ivie don't seem to have a distributor in South America, but how about just emailing them and asking if you could mail order the handheld miracle?

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 08-17-2004, 10:03 PM:

Michael,asking your dealer if he knows somewhere down here I'd find those films will certainly end on the same place I went before and was told they doesn't sell it then was asked,rudely ,to leave the shop. I'll buy from an international dealer when I find one that has it and anything else I may need in the future, but not anymore from that dealer.
As for the RTA stuff, today I found something that seems to be what I want, a Phonic Personal Audio Assistant ( model is PAA2 if I recall it right) it looks in part like the Ivie but doesn't have all the other stuff from the handheld comp. the only thing I didn't really like is that the mic can't be taken off and then placed in the auditorium, by now it's the one that fits better into the price range I can afford. I'll go back to the place I saw it and ask for a demonstration of it.

Posted by David Buckley (Member # 2600) on 08-18-2004, 02:37 AM:

The lowest cost trustworthy (as in has a track record I know about) RTA I know of is the Rane RA27, which is sadly discontinued, but has been replaced by the RA30. These are 1u rack mount.

As mentioned earlier, the Behringer DEQ2496 features a RTA mode. It can be just an RTA, and not use any of the other facilities. However, it doesnt come with the mic, you need to buy it separately. I have no personal experience with this particular device.

Being a newbie I may have lost something, but as I understand it, you use a RTA to do two things - the first is to adjust the sound reader's optics to as near a flat frequency response as possible. The second is to eq the house, using the equalisers installed in the processor.

The first requires the RTA to be connected to a test point in the processor (or somewhere convenient early in the a-chain), and the second requires a mic in the auditorium.

Both the Behringer and the Rane have an input selector switch, so the line input can be connected permanently to the processor test points, and the measuring microphone into the mic socket, and the analyser just left set up in the rack. It can also measure SPL from the mic, so the 85db set is a breeze too.

Both devices are under $500, in this application I'd take the Rane, as there are less buttons to press and the mic is included.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-18-2004, 08:27 AM:

"but how about just emailing them and asking if you could mail order the handheld miracle?"
_________________________________________________________________

Hardly a miracle at all. But you can order it directly from Ivie if there is no distributer in your area..... If you would even want the thing.....
I deal with them directly for calibration and such on my PC-40 which is my backup analyzer.
The D-2 is less expensive and will give you more consistant results anyway.

My first analyzer was an old H-P/Altec Lansing CRT display unit that Steve K. still has, but its only good for display in the Smithsonian any longer. I also have a Hewlett Packard 3580A CRT audio spectrum analyzer that I use on the bench but mainly just for looking at the level of distortion harmonics of amplifiers that I build. Although it can also be used for regular audio work the dynamic range is a bit more limited than a conventional 1/3 octave analyzer of today.

My second was a used Klark Teknik unit which I bought used from a local rental house and it turned out to be very good but heavy to haul around.
Then I went to the Ivie PC-40 which I bought directly from Ivie, about two weeks after buying the Ivie I bought the R-2 after seeing and hearing how well it worked on the first THX system I installed. I knew then that I shold not have bought the Ivie, just the R-2 but I kept the Ivie for backup anyway. I've been using the R-2 as my main analyzer ever since. I have hundreds of files saved from all the cinemas that have been done with this R-2 and its nice to be able to go back and refer to them when need be.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-18-2004, 09:29 PM:

Don't let yourself be confused by Mark. We are not talking about the PC-40 but the IE-33. If you can afford the $1500, it is all you need for your current activities. A multiplexer would be nice too, but in reality, for the kind of equipment you are mostly working on, it won't make a difference.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-18-2004, 09:44 PM:

If memory serves the 1 rack unit rane is only a window of one or two db on either side of the flat line so would not be great for doing a X curve
The best lowcost is the Goldline DSP30 right now

Posted by David Buckley (Member # 2600) on 08-18-2004, 10:43 PM:

Not famililiar with the term "x curve", what should I be reading up on?

Edit: I am now, ISO 2969:1987 Cinematography -- B-chain electro-acoustic reponse of motion-picture control rooms and indoor theatres.

It says B chain - tell me that you dont really "flatten" the room dropping 3db/octave over 2KHz.

[ 08-19-2004, 04:35 AM: Message edited by: David Buckley ]

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 08-19-2004, 12:39 AM:

This is the analizer I'm thinking about buying..
Phonic PAA 2

it sells for about $600.00 where I live ,a little less depending on the store, and is in the same price range as the behringer 2496 ( with a mic included)

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-19-2004, 09:52 AM:

David said"It says B chain - tell me that you dont really "flatten" the room dropping 3db/octave over 2KHz."
That is the ISO standard based on the fact that in large rooms the precived response compared to the actual electroaccoustical response follows that curve. There are a lot of other factors involved. I would recomend that you do a fair bit of reading in the manual's section especially the older Dolby Processors

Posted by David Buckley (Member # 2600) on 08-19-2004, 05:48 PM:

Thanks Gordon for the pointers, doubletless I'll be back :-)

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-19-2004, 06:53 PM:

"it sells for about $600.00 "

Humm... Looks like Michael could have saved a bucket load of $$$.

Mark

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-20-2004, 05:14 AM:

The IE-33 has a whole lot more features. But I think this may be a good option for Luciano. I have never seen one of these in action, so I can't comment on the actual quality.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-21-2004, 01:07 AM:

I think by the time he got the IE-33 down there with the exchange rate and duties he could have bought a new service van [thumbsup]

.
The van COULD have alot more features than the IE33 ever could. And hey, he's got to have something to carry this tool case around in anyway.
Mark

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 08-21-2004, 01:32 AM:

I don't think I'd buy a Van with the money I'd spend with the IE-33
but I surely would buy a newer,bigger car wich would allow me to carry all the 5 tool cases I have here and still have space for something else [Smile]

Putting it in some numbers: IE33's price,~ $1500.00 , exchange rate of today, 1:3.17 soo.. the Ivie alone would cost in my currency $4755,00 . when it arrives here, customs will seize it,check it's value and add 60% over it for duties, it then goes to $7608.00, lets assume a shipping cost of $60.00 ,they'll add 60% over that too so the final cost of the IE33 will be $7912,32.(1500+60x3.17+60%) the PAA2 I mentioned will cost me here less than $2000.00. and to give another example, a brand new AudioControl analyzer will sell here, with mic,cables,etc for $6800.00(~US$2145).
So it's more a matter of costs than features for me. Personally I'd get an equipment that'll do what I need without spend more on it with features I'll rarely use or not use at all [Smile]

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-21-2004, 07:37 AM:

I use all the features regularly. But I didn't want to trigger this nonsensical endless discussion about one piece of equipment, I just wanted to give you some info to help you. I also don't understand what Mark's idiotic and aggressive remarks have to do with the subject.
Our Mexican dealer pointed me to a source for test films in Brazil, but I suggest you rather save the money and invest it into your car.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-21-2004, 10:47 AM:

In past years I've owned several cars, a Dodge minivan, Ford Aerostar Van, and a Dodge pickup. The vans always worked out the best. But perhaps Michael drives a car too for his service work However, the suggestion of a van is hardly a bad idea. There is no way in hell that I could work out of a car. I have enough spare parts in the van alone to fill the trunk of a car let alone the tools and test gear. Any tech that is at all serious about what he/she does has a well set up and stocked van for doing this sort of work. Luckily, I am equipped to do a major overhaul on just about any projector that I might stop at with just the parts and tools in my van. My boss has always believed this and this philosophy has paid of well for him over the years. Now if I could just get hime to get some decent tires [Big Grin]

.

All on all a van is actually a very intelegent choice over the IE-33 and for that 7,912.00 he could probably buy a pretty decent used van.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 08-21-2004, 11:10 AM:

Urrg.. Allright friends..no argueing about the rta's again ok? [Smile]

I apreciate all the inputs about them,I did look for the IE33 here but no one knows what it is.I'd buy it tru the net but as I explained in the previous post,it'll end costing more than any other RTA I found for sale here then,I'll stick to what's available here and gets the one that suits me better [Smile]

or then follow the idea a friend gave me and stay with the PCrta wich was taking the computer out of the case,one lcd monitor another tool case,that aluminium ones, and re-assembling everything inside it.
Doesn't seems all that bad,really [Smile]

Michael, what source for those films here, your mexican dealer pointed out? hope it's not a dealer which it's name starts with
C ...

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 08-21-2004, 03:05 PM:

As in Centauro.....there is always T operated by EB...is this the start of a new game? [Smile]

Yes your tarrifs are high and in multiple stages with Federal, State, City levys but there is promise of lowered schedules in 3 - 5 years from your government.

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 08-21-2004, 09:52 PM:

Heh heh, No Richard, that's not a new game [Smile]

just said that, that way because I'm rather disapointed and somewhat offended with the way I was treated by someone of that company. I went there to buy the films since they advertise selling them in their website but then, they refused to sell any to me then while talking to the person that deals with mechanics about a problem with a projector, I was asked to leave the shop under the excuse I was slowing the work and trying to cause accidents... bah....That's a place I'm avoiding from now on..
Now.. T operated by EB.. would that be Transisom, of Eli(?) Bessos? they're in another state and I don't know them [Smile]

only know two of the processors they made wich came to me for repairs.
Don't have any contact information for them .
Again, I'll buy the films from an international dealr when one tells me how much they want for the films,payment methods,shipping costs and so on [Smile]

ahh.. taxes.. well.. that's part of the deal, oh well.

Posted by David Buckley (Member # 2600) on 09-13-2004, 01:08 AM:

I have now read some manuals, as suggested.

Am I right in thinking that since its the B-chain that is x-curved, then the non-sync CD source also has the x-curve eq applied to it, or is their some fancy equaliser switching going on...?

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 09-13-2004, 05:17 AM:

You are right in thinking that. Of the proecessors I know, only the SDDS DFP-D3000 allows you to select EQ on/off for individual formats (maybe others do as well, but I can't think of any). That is not really necessary though since you are EQing the room, it doesn't have much to do with the input source.

Posted by Paul Trimboli (Member # 1509) on 09-13-2004, 07:47 AM:

Maybe a little off topic but what sort of signal or music would be best for EQing by ear?

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 09-13-2004, 11:43 PM:

DOing EQ by ear isn't really the right way,but if there's no other way and it's the only resource left, a few musics you have heard for quite some time and knows how the instruments sounds like and in special, the singer's voice will help some. If doing it that way, be sure to have a small selection of various styles ( select a few and put 'em on a cd for that purpose or then if you can get those, last reels of varioud features,keep the credits and discard the rest.)Do it in steps, not the whole thing with only one music. If possible have at least two people listening to the tracks in the auditorium and go there a few times too to check how it's going and ask for their oppinion.
(if you have good ears, the close to right setting will be wen the sound isn't boomy or hissy ,too much low and high ends not screamy, too much mid's /mid-highs, it's not an easy thing )
Signals will work as they are intended to, only with the proper test equipment.( wich is the best way to do a EQ setting0

Posted by Paul Trimboli (Member # 1509) on 09-14-2004, 08:22 AM:

Is there any free RTA software? Just something very very basic that will tell me what each freq band is doing? I did a search but could not find anything free, and most had features I would not use. Winamp for example has a spectrum analysier, but something I can hook a mic into and get a display of the frequency bands.

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 09-14-2004, 03:38 PM:

PC-RTAjr is a computer-based RTA, however it requires a proprietary(?) board to be installed in the comp, and the rest is done by the software.
The only other program I know of that'd do it is winscope,but don't know how accurate it is and how it really works. I played with it for a few hours once just for the fun of it and with the sound board I was using at the time it showed low sensibility (sp?) and didn't respond well to some mids and high frequencies.It may have performed that way because I was using a std. mic and not the ones for RTA.
I think the program is available somewhere in the manuals section

Posted by Ferdinando Innocenti (Member # 2477) on 09-15-2004, 12:15 AM:

Paul,
there is no free RTA, but if you want to test your rooms, you can download SpectraLab, for example, with a 30 days licence and all the features working.

But, Luciano is right, you must have a flat balanced mic and a good audio board.

Ciao
Nando