Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Miramax Goes Cyan

This is topic Miramax Goes Cyan in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006477

Posted by Ted Costas (Member # 473) on 08-18-2004, 06:23 PM:

Miramax has announced that it will release all it's 35mm prints with cyan analog soundtracks starting January 1, 2005.

MGM - Currently releasing with a majority percentage of its prints with Cyan analog soundtracks.

Disney - "MR. 3000" comes out on September 17th, with 100% cyan analog soundtracks. All films by Disney will be rleased this way as of January 1, 2005.

Miramax. They were the first studio to do a successful test release of the film, "Get Over It", with a handful of prints using cyan analog soundtracks. Now, they are making their support for this environmentally friendly, technology change by announcing the move.

That's three out of ten.

If this was baseball, we'd be a top ten hitter batting .300... Ted Williams was the last hitter to end a season with a batting average over .400. If one more Studio jumps in, we'll be batting .400 by the end of 2005.

That is the plan.

"Take me out to the theatre,
Take me out to the crowd,
Buy me some peanuts and red light readers..."

Sorry, I got carried away. But I will say this, way to go Miramax! Steppin' up to the plate big time with a home run.

Yours, Ted

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 08-18-2004, 06:46 PM:

Buy me some...red light readers.

Ah...commerce. Ka-ching.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 08-18-2004, 07:08 PM:

Miramax=Disney [beer]

It's the same company. [Eek!]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-18-2004, 08:42 PM:

He hit a foul I say!

Mark

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 08-18-2004, 08:50 PM:

After Michael Moore's 911, I'm not sure Miramax and Disney will stay married. If it was up to Disney we would not have gotten to see W looking like a Possum caught in the garage. (Sorry, had to slip that in).

Disney is going Cyan in Mexico and all of South America as well and the labs have ben gearing up for this.

Guttag, where are you?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-18-2004, 09:51 PM:

quote: Steve Kraus
Ah...commerce.

Ah...no Hydroquinone.

Ah...no sodium hydroxide (lye/caustic soda).

Ah...a single fixer, not two.

Ah...much less fresh water used to process print film.

Ah...less silver in landfills.

Ah...no soundtrack degradation from application problems.

Ah...no silver blotches or bleeding in the picture area.

Ah...much less print waste.

Ah...better print quality.

With over 10 Billion feet of prints made worldwide annually, the environmental advantages are very real. [thumbsup]

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 08-19-2004, 01:00 AM:

With all these alledged savings, why aren't the companies saving all the money sharing the cost of the conversion with the theatres??? As usual in this business it's the exhibitors who get screwed while somebody else stashes the cash. Without this consumption of silver, will the supply go up and price of silver go down?

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 08-19-2004, 03:40 AM:

Yay! More spare exciter lamps to run films from the other 70% of the studios. Still batting .700, not too shabby! Just kidding. [Big Grin]

What happened to "Dolby Dolby Dolby" ?!

Posted by Peter Kerchinsky (Member # 1098) on 08-19-2004, 04:45 AM:

Exciter lamps, what are those?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-19-2004, 05:36 AM:

quote: Bill Enos
As usual in this business it's the exhibitors who get screwed while somebody else stashes the cash. Without this consumption of silver, will the supply go up and price of silver go down?

Without silver redevelopment, more silver will be recovered in the process fixer solution and recycled. But IMHO, it will have little effect on the market price of silver, since between film, electronics, jewelry, and other silver users, it is a huge market.

As noted before, the film raw stock remains the same, with no decrease in manufacturing cost because of cyan dye tracks. So with cyan dye tracks eliminating waste (scrapped reels) from soundtrack application quality problems, the film manufacturers will sell LESS film.

Modern reverse scan readers offer advantages beyond compatibility with cyan dye tracks, so there is benefit to theatres in upgrading.

Posted by Barbara Toriel (Member # 2616) on 08-19-2004, 10:39 AM:

quote: Peter Kerchinsky
Exciter lamps, what are those?

I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic, it's hard to tell written sarcasm but exciter bulbs are located near the analog sounddrum (at least on Christie's and Victoria 8s) in fact it is the light (?) for that reader.

However I am not sure if they are still commonly used. I remember about a year ago AMC had all it's theatre's get little digital readers to replace the exciter bulbs.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-19-2004, 10:47 AM:

Daryl,

I know some laptops get pretty hot, but does your one really need that large extrattion duct attached to it? [Smile]

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 08-19-2004, 11:40 AM:

Absolutely! Those slim line notebooks (Dell X200) get quite hot without them.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-19-2004, 12:51 PM:

I thought maybe you had the carbon arc backlight option for the display!

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-19-2004, 12:55 PM:

No he has an Imax 15K water cooled xenon on it that is why it needs the large duct because the water lines run in it as well [Smile]

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 08-19-2004, 01:57 PM:

Just wondering...
Are the people he employs to haul the power supplies and portable generators around for that thing all union projectionists... or maybe stage hands?

Posted by Ted Costas (Member # 473) on 08-19-2004, 02:29 PM:

Let's get back to the green, cyan that is.

John P., I have heard that the labs may save some money once everybody is printing in cyan. That for the next few years as the transition is taking place, it will be more expensive for them, changing filter packs, etc. Is that true?

And to answer the previous question about the $$$ saved trickling down to the theatre owners... maybe. If ther studios work the cost savings into their deals with the labs, and the theatre owners work those cost savings into their deals with the studios... Woop, there it is. But by the time that happens, Digital Cinema will be, well, who knows.

Dolby, Dolby, Dolby.

Your guys are funny! Good string.

Yours, Ted

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-19-2004, 02:51 PM:

If it's taken, what, five years (or more) for cyan to start to become commonplace, what does that mean for the rate of adoption for [dlp]

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-19-2004, 03:30 PM:

quote: Ted Costas
I have heard that the labs may save some money once everybody is printing in cyan. That for the next few years as the transition is taking place, it will be more expensive for them, changing filter packs, etc. Is that true?

Certainly, "mixed inventories" are harder to manage, and can add to costs. The real environmental benefits really start to happen when labs can eliminate the soundtrack developer reapplication and wash-off step completely from their 35mm print processing machines. Along with this, you can then eliminate the first fixer solution (much as is done with 70mm print machines). But with "mixed inventory", there is always more risk of someone forgetting to change the printer setup, or running film through the wrong processing machine configuration. Expediting the transition has many advantages.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 08-19-2004, 05:22 PM:

Sound track negatives............

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-19-2004, 08:50 PM:

Thanks for the reminder, Richard. [Smile]

Mixed inventory of cyan dye, and cyan+magenta+silver tracks requires preparing two different sets of soundtrack negatives since the XM optimization densities are different. Obviously an added expense and another chance of mixup.

In other words, mixed inventories are a stopgap measure at best.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 08-19-2004, 10:16 PM:

If the second and third world countries are "more prepared than we'd think" and North America is far enough along to warrant soundtrack conversion, who are these dual inventory prints for? What's the point in randomly distributing silver tracked prints if all these people are supposedly ready? Just curious.

Posted by Dominic Case (Member # 1830) on 08-20-2004, 03:11 AM:

quote: Ted Costas
Miramax. They were the first studio to do a successful test release of the film, "Get Over It", with a handful of prints using cyan analog soundtracks.

Cyan tracks are here. It's a fact. "Get over it" indeed.

Every time someone stars a new thread on this subject, it's Groundhog Day. Let's move on.

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 08-20-2004, 05:48 AM:

Everybody on both sides must be tired of beating this dead horse, & especially being invited back to look at a glossy one-sided brocure we've read before:

quote: John Pytlak
Ah...no Hydroquinone.

Ah...no sodium hydroxide (lye/caustic soda).

No manufacturing industry is expected to do its work without potentially hazardous chemicals, with or without terrifying-sounding names. It's that manufacturer's need AND responsibility to manage the hazards, & whether or not that management is done by the manufacturer to the detriment of the consumer & making the consumer pay for it is a matter of sales strategy.

SODIUM HYDROXIDE?

quote: John Pytlak
Ah...much less fresh water used to process print film.

A financial boon for the labs! Less money spent on reclamation! Unless they've been maliciously dumping it previously when they should have been reclaiming it. That surely doesn't sound like the Earth First boys that have been making the announcements!

quote: John Pytlak
Ah...no soundtrack degradation from application problems.
Ah...no silver blotches or bleeding in the picture area.

That keeps being presented, & there's no way to know whether its motivation is just hopefully manipulative sales talk or fear of complete reasoning.

Soundtrack degradation from silver application problems will go away! Well, duh, because silver application will go away. Is the intent to make people think that soundtrack degradation will go away? Think of the problems you've seen in the soundtrack areas, then the printing problems in the image areas on film, & now think that those problems will be transferred to the soundtrack. I think NOBODY is going to be reckless enough to assert that quality control on cyan tracks will be tighter than the silver tracks.

quote: John Pytlak
Ah...much less print waste.

Good news for the labs!

quote: John Pytlak
Ah...better print quality.

That's completely unsupported. You may be eliminating some splash, but the soundtrack is still part of the print.

quote: John Pytlak
With over 10 Billion feet of prints made worldwide annually, the environmental advantages are very real.

To the labs! They pay less. This still boils down to a page full of systemic issues, with one side just printing 'environmental' in red in hope that speed readers will only see that. The labs save on environmental costs that would have been their responsibility anyway, some boxes & licenses get sold, the product (the optical track) is lessened in quality due to lower performance (don't pull up red readers vs. tungsten while conveniently omitting the pre-existing IR) & poorer compatibility, the end users must pay the cost to re-equip for a new format.

quote: Ted Costas
And to answer the previous question about the $$$ saved trickling down to the theatre owners... maybe. If ther studios work the cost savings into their deals with the labs, and the theatre owners work those cost savings into their deals with the studios... Woop, there it is. But by the time that happens, Digital Cinema will be, well, who knows.

So not only is any possibility of savings for the end user via manufacturing cost reduction inconsiderable, it is *acknowledged* that this is expected be a brief period during the decline of film as exhibition? So in this shortened transition stage, there's a huge ramp up in cost to the consumer, & a big financial windfall for the labs & manufacturers as they ride the train those last few miles out of town?

quote: John Pytlak
Mixed inventory of cyan dye, and cyan+magenta+silver tracks requires preparing two different sets of soundtrack negatives since the XM optimization densities are different. Obviously an added expense and another chance of mixup.

And another example of just bringing up the incompatibility problems when it's just to completely eliminate the existing format.

quote: Dominic Case
Cyan tracks are here. It's a fact. "Get over it" indeed.

And that's been the position to get them implemented & eliminate critical evaluation.

I agree that this accomplishes nothing. The practical folks at the tech end of current-release theaters that had red readers pushed by the mfrs who had them pushed by the cyan track committee realistically don't have any more need for this discussion, the exhibitors that got snookered are there already, the issues of compatibility remain unacknowledged because of sales push, the issues of the financial opportunism remain unacknowledged because of corporate PR, nothing happens except somebody as he said puts on his Cosa Nostra hat again & predicts another studio will be releasing in cyan & there's a returning, uncatalyzed outpouring of the same slanted promotional material.

Agreed, it's aggravating, nothing new is happening here.

Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 08-20-2004, 01:38 PM:

Cyan dye cannot be trusted. Can the film companies promise that the dye tracks will last 100+ years like the silver tracks have? Archives and museums sure will be pissed if they don't.
Below is an example of a soundtrack which appears to have no silver, and cyan which has faded out. Never seen anything like that before. While the print is LAB NEW, it is unrunable due to the heavey distortion caused by the PINK soundtrack because the cyan layer is gone. Blah! [puke]

(and yes i know modern stocks have better dyes, etc, etc. But nothing beats silver for permanence.)

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-20-2004, 02:17 PM:

quote: Dan Lyons
I know modern stocks have better dyes, etc, etc. But nothing beats silver for permanence.)

Right on both counts. Modern print film dyes are much more stable, and silver images are even more so. But even silver images can be attacked by residual thiosulfate, sulfur compounds, etc., and need to be processed and stored properly.

Remember, a release print is not the archived element, unless nothing better is available. Silver soundtrack application will be retained for 16mm prints, and will very likely remain available for 35mm prints intended as archived elements. As you know, the digital tracks have been dye-only since their inception. The sound negatives on polyester base are a primary archival element for today's soundtracks.

Posted by Dominic Case (Member # 1830) on 08-22-2004, 11:21 PM:

Dan Lyons says:-

quote: Dan Lyons
Below is an example of a soundtrack which appears to have no silver, and cyan which has faded out. Never seen anything like that before. While the print is LAB NEW, it is unrunable due to the heavey distortion caused by the PINK soundtrack because the cyan layer is gone.

Not clear what Dan's picture is showing. It's not a new print (or if it is then it was defective even before it left the lab). Does LAB NEW mean that it was made about 30 years ago and has never been run? It does indeed look as though the cyan dye has faded (which was a long-term failing of the colour print stocks around that time, but IS NO LONGER a problem with modern emulsions). Both image and sound are affected. Does Dan mean that he's prepared to overlook the image colour problem in order to make a point about the sound issue? Having silver in the track would not have saved the print.

And, if indeed there is "no silver" in the soundtrack, then once again, it was a defective print from the word go. Even before the dye faded the print would have been unplayable. And nowadays, which is when we are moving to cyan tracks, the cyan WILL NOT FADE as it did before.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 08-22-2004, 11:33 PM:

Let's not keep beating John up over this. He's just the messenger, and Cyan is coming whether he passes his information along to us or not.

I'll grant you... his posts are liberally coated with Kodak-friendly verse... but that's his job... and his company is not the evil that it seems he gets associated with from time to time. I'd bet none of us would care to operate in a total Fuji world.

Personally, I can separate any advertisement I might not be interested in from the good information he makes available here... and there's quite a lot of that.

I also agree that the Cyan issue is a dead horse. The references to third world countries isn't going anywhere. It appears we're going to get it... how many years has this been coming?

Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 08-23-2004, 12:53 AM:

quote: Dominic Case
Not clear what Dan's picture is showing. It's not a new print (or if it is then it was defective even before it left the lab). Does LAB NEW mean that it was made about 30 years ago and has never been run?

Yes

quote: Dominic Case
Does Dan mean that he's prepared to overlook the image colour problem in order to make a point about the sound issue? Having silver in the track would not have saved the print.

Yes. Ever go to see repertory films? Faded prints are routinely screened if the title is a more obscure one; studios tend to only strike new prints of popular titles. So yes, films are still screened if they're faded, but the sound is still good as the day it was made. [thumbsup]

danny

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 08-23-2004, 06:30 AM:

As Dan points out, more & more keeps getting pushed off the boat as 'irrelevant'.

You've got to have a red reader to play cyan tracks. The folks who are already on high magenta & don't worry about sibilant distortion on sibilant tracks don't care. But the continued running gag of "Don't you worry never fear, Robin Hood will soon be here" of previously examined empty or misleading claims is infuriating.

The progression is always the same:
1. Broad general claims of different benefits & benign method of introduction
2. The particulars of one of the general claims are examined
3. The particulars of that general claim are found unsubstantiated
4. The move is made back to a generality, as examination of the preceding specifics of that general claim are directed to be abandoned because another general benefit is gained
5. Goto 3.

I'm not beating up John, I'm like everyone else tired of just baiting an instant replay with the general happy claims from the beneficiaries of the cyan track which when examined evaporate, leaving only the hard facts which aren't beneficial to all & benefitting only a few.

The arguments about the longevity of prints are now being claimed to only include "archival elements".

Soundtrack reproduction improvements due to reverse scan PRE-EXISTED, & were not a package with the cyan changeover.

http://www.kodak.com/AU/en/motion/news/caseSoundtracksP.shtml

"To be honest, I am not convinced that there will be a significant improvement in sound quality by matching cyan tracks to red readers, although in theory there could be. "

But they're not. They are known not to be, from measurement & listening. For cyan/red readers vs. tungsten/IR/silver tracks, that's acknowledged by the cyan group, & that Dolby noise reduction should thus be integrated as part of the cyan package.

Then the support arguments dismissing degradation of fidelity of silver tracks on red readers, measurements show sibilant distortion, cyan partisans degrade from dismissing measurement to "golden ears" tests of someone who says it's "acceptable", then when others have noticed the distortion also, it cannot be acknowledged by the cyan merchants. That's why we have measurement in the first place, objectivity & proof, which is NOT part of the cyan implacement campaign.

The environmental issues are an entire bald misdirection.

http://www.kodak.com/AU/en/motion/news/caseSoundtracksP.shtml

"But, of course, this will benefit the environment for everyone, not just the lab. Water saving is particularly important because so many parts of the world are facing water restrictions. Country theatres that haven't changed their equipment are holding up the whole industry and standing in the way of water conservation."

Which is an utter crock. Conserving water in Ocala, FL doesn't affect Tucson, AZ in any way. It's not even a problem in Ocala. It does reduce manufacturing expense in either location, though.

It infuriates me because I'm very involved with environmental issues, especially water quality, & this kind of crap just undermines environmental conservation groups. You can read Steve Guttag's aggravation as proceeding from an insult to reasoning & intelligence because he says "Enviro-wackos". That absurd & misdirecting stuff absolutely is.

And contaminated water is reclaimed by ANY industry before pumping it out, or they're just nasty scum.

Some things are plain, stand up to scrutiny by all, & there's no argument:

http://www.kodak.com/AU/en/motion/news/caseSoundtracksP.shtml

"The big advantages are in the laboratory. By eliminating the applicator, we have one less processing solution to mix and manage, we reduce our water usage, and we reduce reprints and down time due to applicator problems."

As well as the benefits to manufacturers, people who sell licenses to use the technologies, & can claim any PR from it.

I don't think everyone trying desperately to justify the cyan track mandate is a malicious servant of the evil empire or something. The evasion seems more personal in "those who are more obstinate in following their own course, than strong in justifying it."

Take it to the cyan tracks thread, this has all been said there, it's been done there, there is nothing new here, stop baiting. Even the ones who don't care about the implementation are cynical, you can smell it.

--------

"Break it up son, joke's over."
- Topper for a running gag that went on a couple of times more than needed in some Tex Avery cartoon

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-23-2004, 11:34 AM:

I'm only jumping in on this one to make a point about a near bogus statement that Dominic made (actually it was a question)...

If a print fades in the picture (any color) to some degree our brains will correct for color imbalance and quickly the viewer will not notice/pay attention to the shift in color. However, the sound system will not correct for any change. Thus some fading in the picture does not equate to some fading on the soundtrack.

Steve

[ 08-23-2004, 08:36 PM: Message edited by: Steve Guttag ]

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-23-2004, 12:55 PM:

For traditional cyan+magenta+silver tracks on pre-1982 prints, when the old cyan dyes faded, they would affect track performance, since their spectral densities fell well within the spectral sensitivity of a tungsten "white light" reader.

Posted by Dominic Case (Member # 1830) on 08-23-2004, 08:47 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
a near bogus statement that Dominic made

Steve, I don't make bogus statements - not even near!

Colour dye fade isn't simply a matter of an overall shift. When a dye fades, it is in proportion to the amount of dye present in any part of the image. Clear areas of film contain no dye so DO NOT CHANGE. Therefore, the white reference remains the same, while darker tones show an increasing amount of colour shift. The faded sample that Dan posted is never going to look right to anyone.

And secondly, while it's true that we do forget about an overall bias up to a point, it's also true that some viewers are more aware of 'absolute' colour than others. Most colour graders can readily pick a one or two point shift in a print without any reference for example. I hope you aren't suggesting that it's enough to cater only for the less discriminatory viewers in an audience.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-23-2004, 09:02 PM:

It isn't a matter of catering to only the less discriminatory, it is a fact, even the more intuned will also suffer from their brains telling them the color is not as bad until they have the opportunity to get a good reference for their eyes/brain to work from again. The longer they look at the wrong color space, the less they will be able to tell what is excatly wrong about it. Naturally, when a print has suffered to the extent that virtually only one color remains...the brain has an impossible task of making it look correct but it will try (failingly)

The point you miss though is that while with the picture you have several factors in play that relate to how the human mind works, the sound reader does not enjoy that complexity and will progressively play a more notably distorted sound.

You simply can't compare the two to say if you accept one you have to accept the other (or vice-versa).

Steve

Posted by Ed Inman (Member # 2583) on 08-23-2004, 09:47 PM:

Well, just for my .02:

Small, limited platform "arthouse" films which Miramax historically is known for should be the last prints to go cyan because they are the ones most likely to end up being screened by museums, coffee shops, local film societies, etc. which are the least equipped and least funded to change over.

And how many prints of something like "Shaolin Soccer" does Miramax even make? Maybe 20 total? Some savings to the environment!

If cyan is so important why not do it on 3,000-print plex blockbusters like Spiderman where it might actually do some good for the environment and let those of us in zero-budget offbeat venues burn our exciter bulbs in peace?

Ed

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-23-2004, 10:20 PM:

quote: Ed Inman
And how many prints of something like "Shaolin Soccer" does Miramax even make? Maybe 20 total? Some savings to the environment!

If cyan is so important why not do it on 3,000-print plex blockbusters like Spiderman where it might actually do some good for the environment and let those of us in zero-budget offbeat venues burn our exciter bulbs in peace?

As noted previously, dual inventory is a stopgap measure, and having to do both types of track will likely add to costs. The environmental benefits really kick in when the processing machines can be reconfigured to eliminate the first fixer, the soundtrack redeveloper, and the water wash off.

16mm prints will still have silver application, and 35mm prints intended as archival copies could be done by labs specializing in that work if dye+silver tracks are desired.

Posted by Dominic Case (Member # 1830) on 08-23-2004, 11:14 PM:

quote: William Hooper
Conserving water in Ocala, FL doesn't affect Tucson, AZ in any way. It's not even a problem in Ocala.

I'm sorry, I've no idea where Ocala and Tucson are, nor if they have theatres (or water).

When I spoke about country theatres that haven't converted their projectors, I was specifically thinking of the Australian situation, as that was very much the context in which the interview was given. It IS a fact that drought is seriously affecting large areas of rural Australia. It also affects most of the capital cities at present. It IS a fact that - at the time of the interview - no distributors appeared convinced that enough theatres ran red LED readers for them to have enough confidence to order cyan dye track prints. It IS a fact that at Atlab we recycle as much water as we can, in fact we are more advanced in that technology than any other release printing lab in the world. However, water conservation, chemical safety, and all the other issues that go into running any manufacturing operation, can't be addressed with one tactic only. It's not possible to recycle 100% of water, so obviously the less that is needed in the process, the less is consumed. And I'm getting tired of ever-more extreme arguments that so doggedly refuse to recognise the right of manufacturers to update one piece of technology to take advantage of advances in another related aspect.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-24-2004, 06:30 AM:

Personally, I'm glad you are getting tired. The cyan crap IS creating real problems for those that will continue to run older films and for films that will still be producde the old way. There is no practical solution to accommodate both applicated and non-applicated prints. Going to cyan, while a reduction in quality is not an update, more of a potential savings to labs (certainly a desirable goal for any business to save money where ever it can).

Steve

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 08-24-2004, 12:12 PM:

What a pity a more radical solution was not considered such as adding a layer to print stock that would develop into an IR blocking dye (perhaps exposed via UV) or modifying the existing dye structure to be IR absorbing.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-24-2004, 12:30 PM:

quote: Steve Kraus
What a pity a more radical solution was not considered such as adding a layer to print stock that would develop into an IR blocking dye (perhaps exposed via UV)

Sounds like a good way to increase the cost of prints.

quote: Steve Kraus
or modifying the existing dye structure to be IR absorbing.

We already make some pretty tough demands on dyes produced in chromogenic emulsions; adding an extra one, for little benefit, and possibly causing various other problems in the process doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on this one.

Posted by Ted Costas (Member # 473) on 08-24-2004, 07:09 PM:

Just when I thought we were all having a good time, somebody has to run in and splash application all over it... you know, that black stuff that enters into the image area every once in a while. Actually, on 6% to 11% of Dolby's print checking statistics this is the case. Or is that another "baseless claim?"

So you want me to shut up about cyan? You want me (and John) to "get over it". Cute reference, I must admit.

I'll make you a deal (Dominic and W. Hooper), I'll only start a new topic when another studio commits. Remember, you don't have to jump into the discussion if it is "old and tired." The Cyan threads will get shorter and shorter, and soon, in a measly 7 more topics we'll be done with it (even though some think we already are... I guess that is a good thing).

I'll try and keep my info new and fresh.

Although Miramax coming out is "new and fresh."

Yours, Ted

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-24-2004, 07:42 PM:

quote: Steve Kraus
What a pity a more radical solution was not considered such as adding a layer to print stock that would develop into an IR blocking dye (perhaps exposed via UV) or modifying the existing dye structure to be IR absorbing.

Been there, done that. There are not many stable dyes that absorb well into the infrared. Another film manufacturer tried a cyan dye that had "extended" spectral density into the near infrared almost 20 years ago. As I recall, it was not very successful.

The spectral output of red LED readers is a very good match to the spectral dye densities of the cyan dyes used in print films today.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-24-2004, 08:17 PM:

No Ted...that is CAP code...not application [Razz]

Steve