Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Differences between Super Lume-X and Super 80 Lamphouses?

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Posted by Andrew McCrea (Member # 674) on 08-20-2004, 12:22 PM:

I've got the impression that everyone here really likes the Strong Super Lume-X lamphouse... Is there any difference between it and the Super/Ultra 80 lamphouses, besides lamp wattage, and are they equally good lamphouses?

Thanks

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-20-2004, 12:34 PM:

The superlumex has a smaller reflector that is optimized to collect the light from the shorter gaped electrodes of 2.5K and under lamps
The Super/Ultra80 has a larger reflector that is optimized for the longer arc gaps of the 3-7K lamps as well as electrically support the higher current and cooling requirements

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 08-20-2004, 04:32 PM:

Gordon's covered the design differences, Andrew. They are intended for diffent sizes of screens. The "Super80" could be considered a larger "Super Lume-X", and the "Ultra" takes design capacities even higher (with the addition of extra cooling).

They all have long histories of decent performance. I've used Strong products all my life, starting with the "Standard" arc lamps. At one time, I wouldn't consider anything else. They're still decent.

However, after using some products by Big Sky, and others, I'm somewhat less ebulent about Strong's lamps than I used to be. Either I have some serious flaws in the various ways I've learned to align xenon lamphouses, or the Strong products are generally cursed with the inability to focus a uniformly flat field across the screen. I invariably wind up with hot spots that I can not coax out. Curiously, I can align lamphouses from other companies and get stunning results in a fraction of the time.

I've looked for answers here several times. Generally, the responses I get are that I'm not the only one who experiences these challenges.

Still... I'd much rather have anything made by Strong than what Christie was putting out prior to their SLC series.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-20-2004, 06:25 PM:

I generally use the Ultra-80 over the Super-80. The cost difference is very little and the Ultra-80 has better cooling and comes with a heat filter.

As to the light...I've used a ton of Super Lume-X and Ultra-80s...never a big problem with light. In fact, in recent years the color temp of the lamphouses are reasonably well matched as compared to others (I do many 2-projector changeover installations). As to eveness of light...I have not had the problems others have mentioned...in fact, just the opposite...I've had rather good results.

My normal configuration for the Strong lamphouses are with Simplex projectors and ISCO lenses. Perhaps that has something to do with it though I have a few Strong/Century installations and I also use Schneider lenses.

I recently did a top to bottom lamphouse alignment on another well respected console for a studio screening...despite a new reflector and an extensive alignment (that yielded nearly double the amount of light) its eveness did not impress me and was worse than I have obtained with Strong lamphouses. On this system, there was a Christie projector with Schneider variable-prime lenses. There were two rooms set up and they level and eveness of light between the two rooms were similar. One room had a the Christie single-bladed shutter which was more light efficient than the double bladed one.

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-20-2004, 06:35 PM:

"As to eveness of light...I have not had the problems others have mentioned...in fact, just the opposite...I've had rather good results."

Evenness and color match were the two main reasons I always used Super Lume-X's on the portable dailies projectors. I was able to focus back and get flat light levels at plus or minus 2 fl with the Super quite easily. Of course this was back in the Old Spectra Cine days and today I'd want to use the USL meter to see how exact they really were. The mirrors that I got in pairs of Supers always matched up really well, but if one mirror was replaced the other had to be as well anbd the new pair had to be from the same batch of mirrors to keep the color match. All the DP's always like the light out of them and I can't remember anyone ever complaining about them from anyone.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-20-2004, 07:04 PM:

For those not in the know...Strong reflectors have a three-letter code on them to denote color temp. If the two reflectors have the same code, odds are they will look well matched.

Mark, I've done several PSA measurements on the Strong lamps...the numbers back up the impressions...they can do quite well.

My most even light has been Kinoton on a Stewart Snowmatte100...it was 16fL +/-.5 fL...just what a lab would need! we also used filters in front of the projection lens so films timed for Xenon or Tungsten could be evaluated.

Steve

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 142) on 08-21-2004, 03:25 AM:

I must admit to being a fan of the venerable Strong range of lamphouses. I have used most of the xenon range from the X60C/D to the Lume-X, Super Lume-X and Super 80. Today we have installed at our drive-in an X60C, X60D and a Super 80 all running 5,000 watt lamps. They are difficult to align with an even light across the screen. Kinoton or Cinemeccanica can be aligned with a more even light on almost evey installation I've seen, but the Strong's are reliable, roomy and when correctly installed provide good light efficiently.

David Kilderry

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 08-21-2004, 05:23 AM:

(p/o a staff memo I wrote years ago...) [Wink]

...Strong Cinema Products uses a 3-letter code to identify the color temperature of their lamphouse reflectors. The code letters are located on the outside rim surface of the reflector. After decoding, a zero is added in the 4th place of the code to obtain the color temperature in degrees Kelvin. The codes are as follows:

A = 9
B = 5
C = 1
D = 4
E = 8
F = 2
G = 7
H = 0
I = 3
J = 6

Example: Code B J H = 5 6 0 + 0 = 5600°K.

Any questions, please don’t hesitate to give me a call.

>>> Phil

BTW: Whenever I did a 3D or multi-projector venue, I specifically specified on the order that all of the reflector codes must match.

>>> Phil

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 08-21-2004, 09:57 AM:

Phil, does this represent deliberate manufacturing or is there such a large variance in applying the dichroic coating that all they can do is test them after the fact and label accordingly? Is any given reflector uniform over its area?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-21-2004, 10:34 AM:

In the past when I ordered lamphouses I always asked for the reflectors to have been done in the chamber together at the same time. This pretty much guarantees a pair that are the same. Sometimes I had to wait quite a while for them. I don't know if they will do that today but the code thing that Phil mentioned above will get you very close indeed.

Mark

Posted by Andrew McCrea (Member # 674) on 08-21-2004, 01:34 PM:

Thanks for all the replies! It really helps a lot!

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 08-21-2004, 08:11 PM:

quote: Steve Kraus
...does this represent deliberate manufacturing or is there such a large variance in applying the dichroic coating that all they can do is test them after the fact...

Gosh Steve, that would be better answered by some expert in optical coatings. I honestly do not know. [Frown]

I would suspect it's a function of tests and grading "after-the-fact".

While there is a likelihood that reflectors processed together will be of the same color temp, there is NO guarantee. I've been fooled by that in the past and for big $$$ as I had to make another "batch". And, as you say, "trust me", at over $5k a reflector... it gets real expensive real fast! [Eek!]

I always opt for the after-the-fact tests.

>>> Phil

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-21-2004, 08:24 PM:

I would tend to say that these reflectors are measured after the fact. One of the problems of the coatings is that they tend to push things toward the blue/green end of the spectrum. Also a single number in degrees Kelven only really makes sense when one is on the "Daylight" curve. Chromaticity better describes the color in x and y coordinates.

I've had really good matches out of Strong with both Super Lume-X and Ultra-80s.

What I don't understand is why none of the filter manufacturers will make their various filters in a cinema standard thread 70.6mm with 36TPI threads. It would give the screening room environment the ability to measure the whole system (including such factors as the port, lens and screen) and tweek the light on a lens-by-lens basis for near perfect matching. The closest I've come to that is to use oversized filters situation in front of the lens (this was designed by Kinoton for a lab situation).

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-21-2004, 08:34 PM:

I had some interesting conversation with Clint Tinker of Optiform at last Showest. Mainly regarding the Canadian glass reflector conversion being offered there but also regarding coatings, life span of coatings, and color match. He did mention that the closest match available would be from a pair of reflectors that came out of the same coating chamber. He said that although things are controled to critically tight tolerances that from batch to batch there are going to be minor color differences no matter what. So one can imagine that if hundreds of reflectors are produced that one might find some really very close matching reflectors by the measurement method, but from the way he was talking the closest match would be from reflectors all done at the same time. I can remember someone at Strong also saying this sort of thing years ago when I was buying the Supers.
The other interesating thing he mentioned was that he could easily come up with a metal reflector that could do exactly the same thing the Canadian conversion was accomplishing but at alot lower price.

Mark

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 08-21-2004, 08:51 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
I've had really good matches out of Strong with both Super Lume-X and Ultra-80s.

I agree, Steve. I have always had great color temperature matches from Strong when I ask for it. [thumbsup]

Mark, I'm not disputing that. I'm merely saying that ***FROM MY EXPERIENCE*** "some manufacture" that you "may have" mentioned has made me the same "promise" when making me 15kW-30kW water cooled reflectors.

Bottom line: Bottom $$$ line.

Like they say... buyer be ware. Nothing is "perfect" and it's a fact of life no matter what we are "sold".

>>> Phil

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-21-2004, 09:30 PM:

Yea, I would certainly agree on those reflectors. They are huge and the number of them that could be coated at once would be very limited indeed. For those lamphouses you would have also had to match both the other mirros sets as well as both heat filters. What ever you did sure workled well as the lamps at M.A.L. sure match very well.

Mark

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 08-22-2004, 01:36 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
The other interesating thing he mentioned was that he could easily come up with a metal reflector that could do exactly the same thing the Canadian conversion was accomplishing but at alot lower price.

So why hasn't he, if it's so easy and at a competitive price?

Now if you're going to identify the existing conversion by a country, at least call it Quebecian. [Smile]

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-22-2004, 09:51 AM:

Meopta apparently now prvides the christie reflector and I have used there glass one as a retrofit to several older vertical lamphouses converting them over to horizontal operation

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-22-2004, 10:15 AM:

"So why hasn't he, if it's so easy and at a competitive price?"

Its not their sort of buisness to offer lamphouse conversion kits, they are an optical house delivering custom parts to other vendors. Of course you could have Optiform do this and you could market it too. The Quebecians could have Optiform make the reflector if they wanted to.... but then again they are Quebecians and think differently than most others on the planet(IMHO).
______________________________________________

"Meopta apparently now prvides the christie reflector "

Then why was the replacement I installed three weeks ago in an Optiform Box?

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 08-22-2004, 06:33 PM:

quote: Jack Ondracek
the Strong products are generally cursed with the inability to focus a uniformly flat field across the screen. I invariably wind up with hot spots that I can not coax out.

Yah, well you should try getting even light out of an ORC 4500; even after hours and using the Align-O-Tron, the thing still puts out hotspots and uneven light. Funny thing is, no one seems to notice it when the picture is one, cept me. And I can't even look at the screen without film without wretching.

Don't have that problem with Strong Super Lumen-X, well at least not to that same degree....I am used to getting super even light across the entire screen with my Peerless Carbon Arc, souped up to burn 80amps. I don't quite understand why xenon arcs can't be just as even. Same principal, no?....reflector, plasma in the arc gap focused on the aperture. Why the big difference with xenons?

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 08-22-2004, 09:40 PM:

The carbon-based life form emits light primarily from the positive core; a point source pretty much. Not a ball of plasma. Optics are always easier with point sources.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 08-22-2004, 11:36 PM:

quote: Frank Angel
you should try getting even light out of an ORC 4500

...Got a couple of them laying around here, Frank... if you're interested! [Razz]

Posted by Andrew McCrea (Member # 674) on 07-19-2005, 01:02 PM:

Can the Super 80 run 5k or 6k watt xenons? Would it take a few modifications?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-19-2005, 01:38 PM:

..you can head to www.strong-digital.com for more info on the Super 80 lamphouse.

Posted by Andrew McCrea (Member # 674) on 07-22-2005, 01:37 PM:

FWIW, the website is actually: http://www.strong-cinema.com

Can someone private msg me about this lamphouse, please?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-22-2005, 04:45 PM:

The Super-80 only differs in its Blower from the Ultra-80 (and the Ultra-80 comes with a heat filter whereas the Super-80 it is an option).

A 5-7KW lamp will FIT the Super-80...it is the cooling that is in question. You better have plenty of it on the exhaust stack because you will have about half the intake blower as the Ultra-80. Furthermore, you should be running with a heat filter when you are in the upper lamp ranges...I generally go to heat filters at 4K and above.