Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: CNA-100 problem

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Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 09-06-2004, 10:44 PM:

I am having some odd behavior out of three CNA-100s. They are currently set up so that the first cue is automatic (I don't know if this is default or not), but three of them are missing all or part of the programmed setting for this cue (not switching the sound into SR, not dimming the lights, etc). We are also having issues with the EPRAD failsafes missing cues too, and are switching to Neumade tape to try to fix that.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-07-2004, 07:52 AM:

What normally causes an Eprad C.D. to miss is too much distance between the cue detector head and the film itself. I want to say the max spec is 40 thousandths but I may be wrong. Double check with Eprad(not Strong) about that distance! I usually set them for three thicknesses of film away from the prox head and this has always worked fine for me. Sometimes the metal bracket that the whole assy. is mounted on can get bent away fomr the film.

Once the C.D.'s are working try the CNA 100's on learn mode and see if that works reliablt for you. With both cue detector problems and possible CNA-100 problems you need to sort out and fix the cue problems before you can begin to deal with the automation problem.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-07-2004, 11:26 AM:

CNA-100s do not have a "learn" mode as does the CNA-200.

Are you sure the CNA-100s are programmed properly in the theatres that are having issues? They have been rather reliable for us. The LEDs that are flashing are where the automation will go to on the next cue. Again, I would check the programming first before deciding the automation isn't working properly.

The Xetron Acuta works best with the EPRAD cue detector, I've found.

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-07-2004, 12:48 PM:

Steve,
I agree they are very reliable, but he did state that cues are not being read consistantly. Before he can go any further he needs to correct the cue detector defficiency. Accuta tape is good, and expensive, but just about any decent foil cue tape should be easily read by an FP-350 that has the proper clearance to th film. We have actually had great luck with using the Kelmar cue dot applicator with the FP-350's.

Mark

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-07-2004, 04:11 PM:

I must disagree. Not just on the obvious part about the Strong automations being reliable, but on a more productive note...the Aucuta tape is the only tape that I have found truly works well with the Eprad/Strong failsafes. However it DOES wear over time! As such it must be replaced if you keep the film for very long.

That cue tape on a roll was nothing but problems for me when using that Strong automation.

(Disclaimer - by using the term "reliable" when speaking of automations, I expect then to perform perfectly 100% all the time without exception. The whole argument of an occasional missed cue being acceptable is NOT acceptable.)

Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 09-07-2004, 04:56 PM:

Thanks for the help guys..

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-07-2004, 06:12 PM:

Mark, also note that EPRAD specifies the minimum cue length and the Kelmar "dot" does not qualify.

Only on some of the EPRAD cue detectors have we had problems (something like 2 over about 24 of them). AcutaII always seem to work.

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-07-2004, 08:18 PM:

Brad,
Can't remember a single failure of a Strong CNA series automation out of 40 or so I've installed but the SPA and CPA series were crap at best and failed all the time.

Steve,
Check your clearances. I have noticed that some of the prox's are not as sensitive as others for what ever reason. As long as I am at three film thicknesses they all work ok in this part of the world. We ahve had some clumsy operators bend the dam mounts somehow. Its pretty thin alumnium. The kelmar applicator does work even though its not nearly as long as what Eprad specifies. Try it for your self some time, you get at least a one second pulse out of it because the "one shot" circuit in there stretches it out a bit. We have two locations using Kelmar applicators with no complaints.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-07-2004, 08:22 PM:

Mark,

Clearances long since checked...we've even opened up the mounting holes on the sensor mounting plate to allow near rubbing of the sensors...some units just are fussy.

Steve

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-07-2004, 09:23 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
We ahve had some clumsy operators bend the dam mounts somehow.

You can blame that on the stupid mega-short takeup elevator on the Strong platters sitting next to it. [Razz]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-07-2004, 11:38 PM:

Steve,
Probably bad sensors then as the sensitivity is a preset function of prox sensor.

Brad,
No Strong platters around here except in a couple of older Cineplex's and one of those has DMC platters and in the two LHM Theatres locactions which have Strong DMC as well. I agree they can cause damage without proper operaation. About 85% of the platters I service are AW-3 then followed by Speco. There are more Neurotic Platters than Strong and Potts and Pans in this area. The Neurotics run and run but oh man when they have problems you don't want to be in the same county!

Mark

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 08-15-2016, 06:44 PM:

It has been 4359 days since the last post.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 08-15-2016, 06:44 PM:

Sorry to drag up such an old thread but Marks comment on the Neumade Neutronic Platter gave me fond memories of being a projectionist trying to get the 1/4 inch plug into the 5 tier version then fixing said 1/4 inch plugs and IR sensors as a service tech at the same location.

Man, I miss film! [Wink]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-15-2016, 06:58 PM:

I was lucky enoughg to be able to replace all the Neurotic platters with AW-3 right after I left CLACO, except one 5 stack in WY. And I finally dragged that one kicking and screaming to the recycler for my customer. He hated the DAM thing too.

Mark

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 08-15-2016, 07:12 PM:

The unfortunate thing is that when they ran well they were quite quiet and steady. It could have been a decent design with some modifications. The rubber belts on the make up tables were terrible too. Again, apologies just feeling nostalgic.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-17-2016, 04:15 PM:

Nothing to apologize abut Sean. Neither of us designed them. They had their weak spots and perhaps before you got to working on them were the teeny tiny micro switches they used in the payout heads. So you had several weak aspects there. Later on there was a retrofit for the pay out heads, but it's been so long I don't remember what it entailed. I'm just glad they are all gone.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 08-18-2016, 05:30 PM:

They replaced the micro switch with an IR emitter/detector assembly and a reflector. You "timed" the payout head by moving the reflector to where it didn't return too much IR or it wasn't so far out that you got no reflection. I remember they worked best if you left a payout unit to a particular platter but projectionists loved to move them around the complex. They also used an easily broken pin to orientate the payout head which when broken would allow it to spin freely and unscrew the 1/4 phono plug. The funny thing is after all the years I still remember the model no. NXP-3000 or NXP-3500 (for the 5 tier) because I wrote SO many service reports on those. And I only had them in one 10 screen not all over my territory like you did.

I would still like to know who at Neumade decided using a 1/4 phono plug was a good idea to connect payout units to the platter. At one point I considered re wiring them all with another type of quick disconnect but never found anything suitable besides rebuilding the entire unit to take strong payout units.

I did have quite a few NXR-3000's too which was pretty much a copy of the Potts Alpha platter/strong AP platter.

But then again I also had my nice National Amusements locations with equipment outfitted Louis Bornwasser (sp?) that were totally trouble free beside the odd crossover here and there on the Haffler (I think) amps. I actually serviced the old Dedham, ma location outside the corporate office before they tore it down and built the mall and new cinema and that location still had the original automations from the 60's which I can't think of the name but they used diode pins to step down events and functions, relays and a cam timer. I heard they were hand wired by (I'm sure) nice older ladies I'm England. I'm not sure any two were wired exactly the same!

Boy, do I miss the good old days. [Smile]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-19-2016, 03:14 PM:

That's right! I had completely forgotten (purposely) about those.

On the Strong/Potts micro switch payout heads we developed a triac board that was controlled by the micro switch. This way the micro switch was not doing all the heavy switching work, but the triac did. Lead free switches lasted way longer that way.

Mark