Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Saturday Night and the Shit Hits the Fan!!

This is topic Saturday Night and the Shit Hits the Fan!! in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 09-13-2004, 03:37 AM:

Saturday night,7:30pm and sitting back at home relaxing with a cold one in my hand.The phone rings and it's my projectionist telling me he can hear a bad mechanical noise coming from the projector and he is standing in the auditorium!5 minutes and I was at work and he was right it sounded like a barrel full of nuts and bolts rolling down a hill.F*%%#@&*((&^$%$#CK!!
The sound seemed to be coming from the Intermittent area.
Got straight onto the phone to our service techs(who are 500 klms away)and asked if they could suggest anything I could do.The only intermittent I'd seen before was the one that had been replaced in this machine about 12 months ago.The person I was talking to was not sure whether the intermittent could be removed from the operating side of the the projector or the oil cover side(SIMPLEX 35 model 1050) but he did tell me how to time the projector if I get that far.
So we had nothing to loose and we did successfully remove the intermittent(after removing a few screws that didn't need to be removed)and sure enough the intermittent had been running dry for some time.
These are the faults we found:
Loose flywheel screws on the end of the intermittent shaft(non-operating side)
Loose grub screws and bush on the end of the intermittent shaft(operating side)
Partially clogged oilways
The oil feed pipe that drips oil onto the end of the intermittent shaft was loose and pointing away from the area it should be dripping oil onto.
After about 4 hours we finally got it all back together(we had to do the TIMING twice to get it right)and the machine now makes our other machines(which we feel are running fine)sound quite noisy.
Now I don't want a Gold Star on my forehead for being a good boy and i don't want to be called a Hero-what I want to know is how to remove the vertical and horizontal shafts in this projector so I can rebuild this projector down the track when it's going to need it and to be able to service the machines myself or replace bearings when needed.Maybe I should invite Mark G over here for a holiday,take him fishing and bushwalking them make him drink shit-loads of Aussie beer then get him to teach me all he knows!!

Posted by Peter Mork (Member # 1336) on 09-13-2004, 03:58 AM:

Hey, I like Foster's too y'know!

Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 09-13-2004, 04:10 AM:

Tell me all the secret's Pete and the Fosters is yours!!(I'll even let you sample my private stock of DARK & STORMIES-Ginger Beer(Root Beer in your part of the world-although over here a root is something you get the one day of the year that your missus is talking to you),strong Rum and a shit-load of ice-who gives a F@%$#@CK about intermittents!!

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 09-13-2004, 05:05 AM:

If the intermittent has actually run dry for a while, it may give up some time in the near future. Maybe it will run for another long time, but in my experience, that is not likely...
If you have a repair/exchange service available to you that charges you actual labor and parts rather than a flat fee, you should consider exchanging it now that it is maybe only slightly damaged.

Explaining how to take the projector head apart would be a really long post. But you will find that if you refer to the parts explosion drawings and the text description in the manual, it is not all that difficult. All it takes is a little patience and a couple of hours time the first time you do it.
Start out by taking the intermittent out, then the oil pump, then work your way towards the inside.
Make sure you have all the screwdrivers and allen keys, best with T-handles, enough time and leisure, and put the parts down somewhere you don't lose them, systematically in the order you take them out and keep all the small parts of the individual assemblies together, so that you don't have to wonder where this small screw and that washer has to go when you put it back together.
You will find that it looks daunting at first, but it is not all that difficult.
In my experience, the only thing to be avoided is to take the shutter compensator assembly apart as it can be an enmormous pain to put it back together again with all the parts in good alignment to each other.
Take it out as a whole - or maybe somebody else has some good tips on this.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 09-13-2004, 09:41 AM:

One thing you want to do at some point is get rid of that existing gear on the oil pump and put a new one on it. The 1050's are notorious for that gear separating since it is basically two pieces. Metal mounted to the pump with nylon gear part molded to the metal. Now you get one whole piece no separation of the gear.

Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 09-13-2004, 05:48 PM:

Thanks Michael,I know I'm looking with my mouth instead of my eye's but just a short list of the order that parts are removed I'm sure would alleviate my fears of attempting this job.
Just one other question-do you normally replace the brass or bronze bushes in the housing that holds the intermittent and if so do these need to be heated before they can be removed?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-13-2004, 06:24 PM:

Ok, here goes..... First off the Aussie holiday would be very nice indeed, always wanted to go there..... [beer]

That movement should at least be looked at by someone very knowledgable about them, definately NOT the guy you talked to on the phone though. Running them dry for long periods can and will damage both the cam pin and slots on the star that they fit into..... not counting the shaft and bushings themselves which should at least be polished again to remove any trace of galled metal. I usually polish the shafts with 800 grit oxide paper and oil and the bushings get polished with a barrel lap and 600 grit compound, both then get ultrasonically cleaned to get rid of every trace of oxide abrasive. Also be sure that all the oil spirals are not plugged up on the shafts and be darn sure that the oil passages in the rear section of the casing are not plugged.... blow them out with high pressure air! Its common for gear pieces to get stuck in the casing oil passages if the movement has blown out(thats slang thats commonly used up here) in the past. The gears are inexpensive but the star and cam are very expensive if they need to be replaced again.
Which bronzes/brasses are you talking about? The star and cam bushings in the X-L movement are cast iron, not bronze or brass. If someone replaced them with brass or bronze they will not last near as long as the original cast iron bushes will. One problem with the Simplex is that the bushes are usually part of the casting itself and cannot be pressed out. It is possible to machine them out and press in a new cast bushing that is available from Ed Wolk and perhaps someone that rebuilt yours did that but used brass instead of cast iron. The combination of cast iron bushings and hardened steel shafting is hard to beat as a running pair and if properly lubricated can last indefinately as in the Phillips DP-70. The outer star bushing is oilite and is easily and inexpensively replaced as an assembly. Be sure to oil the outer bushing occasionally with a couple drops of simplex oil.
You should see oil overflowing out of the small overflow holes that are locacted just above where the cam shaft goes through to the inside of the casing... some cases have two and some have three holes, but oil should be seen overflowing from them... if not then there are other problems that need to be corrected in the eoiling system.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 09-14-2004, 04:23 AM:

Mark
You would be more than welcome down here anytime.
I cleaned up the shaft with fine grade steel wool(not sure what you guys call it?)and blew out the oil-ways with Contact Cleaner as that was all I had,it seemed to work ok.I'm sure I wasn't as particular about cleaning as you described in your reply but now that I know how to dismantle it I'll give it another go.
I was getting a bit confused about the brass bushes it was the
outer star bushing that left a mark on the shaft,the rest of the shaft looked ok.
I was operating the projector today and noticed a couple of things:The oil was happily gurgling out of the overflow holes.
The other thing(which I wasn't very happy about )was some pretty bad picture shake.So at the end of the first show I grabbed the intermittent sprocket and I could feel way too much end float in it so I adjusted the collar on the end of the shaft and the next show looked good.
Of cause all of this led me to check the other two projectors,one was fine and the other NO oil coming out of the overflow holes and a hand made bit of tin for the "oil flicker" on the top of the vertical shaft.This equipment for the last 10-15 years has only been touched if something brakes with the occassional oil change with the wrong oil.It's amazing how they have lasted!

Posted by Ian Joseph Parfrey (Member # 2682) on 09-15-2004, 05:39 AM:

This just seems like another case where having "movie camera operators" (sic), is really REALLY dumb. Why do not these theatres employ people who actually know what they're doing? It has just gotta be false economy. Any PROJECTIONIST worth their pay knows what a dry intermittant sounds like. Hell, how on earth did it get that way in the first place????? My guess it is tghe scourge of the Australian Cinema, the "Cinema Worker". Here is a hint to all managers who think they save money by employing brain-dead school leavers in their projection rooms. YOU WONT SAVE MONEY! Why? Because a pissed off patron is a REAL BAD ADVERTISMENT for your theatre, that's why. One day someone will wake up to this simple fact.

Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 09-16-2004, 12:45 AM:

Ian I agree in theory with what you are saying but in this case youv'e got it all wrong.This machine has been a noisy P.O.S. from day 1.It has had major rebuild work done on it several times in the last few years and it has never run quietly.
We are a family business and since taking over this business a couple of years ago we have put about $150-200,000 back into this business doing major upgrades which were absolutely necessary to be done.So we have had to live with a noisy projector.This machine did not exhibit noticeable change in noise untill it shit itself.I see my business from ALL sides-Manager/Projectionist/Box Office/Candy Bar/Cleaning.

Posted by Bill Langfield (Member # 818) on 09-16-2004, 01:12 PM:

Oh boy Ian, I can see why Ian might have a case to be mad at you here.

If you have spent upwards of 200k on the cinema, then just accept that 'that' projector is 'just' noisy is not good enough.

Whoever was telling you to 'just live with the noise'. I'd be asking that person to pay to replace the parts!

I can tell when there is a bearing about to let go making a noise, but to let it get to a point of finding out that the intermittent was at fault (by it failing), is very bad, as I'll bet that's going to cost $6,000 to replace, not just a $30 bearing would have.

In fact your whole story, is of concern. You really need to get someone who knows what they are doing to service your projectors. (Don't use the guy who could not explain how to to remove the movement)

Clearly you are 'outback' (the 500km's travel) so when you get the 'tech' in there make sure anyone you intend to allow to be a 'projectionist' have the 'tech' explain routine maintenance to them!

Bill.

BTW: I'd be calling either (in no certain order) ASN: Barry, Panalogic: Ray, Atlab/GUO: Jason. However all in NSW, but WOULD be help over the phone.

But I get the feeling you just wanted to tell a HORROR story!
I have several too!!!!

Posted by Bill Langfield (Member # 818) on 09-19-2004, 02:21 PM:

Via e-mail Ian Bailey and I have conversed about what happened to to his projector.

It's a long story REALLY and I consider the case closed as far as open forum goes.

I'm winging this BIT.
As for the the OTHER Ian that chimed in and blamed GUO or HOYTS for employing 'ChocToppers' (and I agree to to a point, about that), but they quickly learned the errors of it, being Most prints wrecked.

Bill.

I could go on but it 5am and I've just finished a double, and finished shift with a super migrane. (I go part blind when I get them, not a good thing when projecting!!)

Thank you.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-19-2004, 04:22 PM:

quote: Bill Langfield
Whoever was telling you to 'just live with the noise'.

Clearly I'd be firing that person and looking for someone new!

Mark @ CLACO