This is topic Technicolor film can spacers in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-30-2004, 01:23 PM:
 
It's nice that TES is now putting a spacer into the cans to compensate for the removal of the trailers. But what about the return shipment from that first playdate? The spacer does not get put in until the can is back at the depot, so the film could be damaged during that return trip.

Since they are using plastic canisters as spacers, why not put the trailers INSIDE the plastic canister on the initial shipment? Along with a note reminding the projectionist to please return the canister of course.

The same solution could work if they're using an empty reel, providing there aren't too many trailers in the initial shipment to fit around the core.

(edited to fix a couple of spelling mastakes)

[ 09-30-2004, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: Mike Blakesley ]
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-30-2004, 01:27 PM:
 
I don't think that has been 100% implemented yet, but is in the works. It may take another month or two for it to make it's way down to second run as the films play. Still anything to keep the reels from banging around will not only protect the film, but keep the reels from getting damaged as well. It's more work for TES, but I think it's pretty obvious that these guys are really working overtime to make their service better.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 09-30-2004, 04:38 PM:
 
Why don't the TCD folks go and visit the VFS depots TES bought quite a few years ago and see how they've been doing things right for many years?
 

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Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 10-30-2004, 11:57 PM:
 
Got this over the fax machine


 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-31-2004, 12:34 AM:
 
Easy and low cost solution is to sticker the items. Film Can Spacer...do not wind film on this reel...please return with print. Something similar for the plastic film tins. That would cure much of it.

Daryl: What does VFS do?
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 10-31-2004, 01:07 AM:
 
Another useful innovation in the process of being ruined by booth idiots (also known as non-Film-Techers).

Wonder how long it will be before Technicolor just gives up on it?

I hope that note helps, but am not holding my breath.
 

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Posted by Chase Hanson (Member # 2779) on 10-31-2004, 03:21 AM:
 
Wow

Tech is actually doing something productive. Ill have to remember to be highly protective of their precisely folded cardboard.
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 10-31-2004, 09:22 AM:
 
This is a perfect use for all those reels that fall apart when you get the print. There has to be more than 55 of them per week. Use them for spacers.
 

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Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 10-31-2004, 11:35 AM:
 
I havn't seen any of those film can spacers...However I did get the memo in the fax machine.
It sure would be nice of ETS would do something. I'm actually dissapointed with their service over TES right now.
 

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Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 10-31-2004, 12:03 PM:
 
I've not seen these spacers either. Maybe they aren't hitting first run full force yet?

Brad, (or anyone else for that fact)
Can you post an image of what these spacers look like for those of us who haven't seen one yet?

Thanks!
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 10-31-2004, 12:36 PM:
 
They are simply an empty reel OR a plastic film canister. I haven't seen a cardboard spacer since they announced this new program.
 

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Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 10-31-2004, 10:47 PM:
 
This is simply LAME.
Why don't they depots (both TES and ETS) simply go back to the practice they did (and many indies still do) from the beginning of time until the early 90's: ship films in cans that fit all the reels without any blank space!!!

Nothing pisses me off more than having an 8-reel print ship on 3 cans, when it easily would fit into 2 4-reelers!

Before someone chimes in with 'But what about the enclosed trailers?!?', remember that back then trailers were shipped separately, and even TES to this day still ships bagfuls of trailers separate from prints all the time!

...just my .02

-Aaron
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 10-31-2004, 11:28 PM:
 
Surely you know the answer, Aaron: that marketing people have found that trailers enclosed are more likely to play than trailers chasing or seperately shipped. And marketing controls pursestrings.

--jhawk
 

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Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 11-01-2004, 06:36 PM:
 
Agreed, Aaron! Just fill the damned cans.

ETS sometimes ships the trailers in a sealed envelope when the prints come in filled cans. This package accompanies the print, so it isn't likely that they would not be used.

As yet, I too have not encountered spacers in TES cans.

As far as trailers "chasing" the print, all too often they lose the race, as the pack is already completed by the time they arrive.

When it comes to trailers "chasing", I often think of the old addage: "YOUR LACK OF PLANNING DOES NOT CONSTITUTE AN EMERGENCY FOR ME."
 

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Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 11-01-2004, 07:00 PM:
 
My guy who worked last night tore down our print of 'Cat in the Hat' and left the spacer reel on our bench and was going to send the print out, sans the extra protection. I think some operators are thinking, "Hey! Free reel!"

So far, we've recieved three QC prints from technicolor. Two had empty black reels (the nice ones with the netal hubs), and one had a one-reel container (labeled for the UK release of 'Connie and Carla,' pretty cool actually).
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 11-01-2004, 07:27 PM:
 

quote: Steve Kraus

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Daryl: What does VFS do?

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VFS, now rebranded, does things right. From putting an extra empty reel in a can to fill a void in the rare event that they don't ship in an exactly sized can, to using an adequate amount of tape to hold leaders down. It seems that every great new idea from TCD is something that VFS (or whatever Thompson calls it now) has done forever.

As for trailers in cans. They're quite rare here. Trailers usually show up way before prints do, or get delivered with the prints. Trailers for the current week showing up after the prints arrive is rare.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-11-2004, 06:55 PM:
 
I got a print today that should (hopefully) make someone at TES reconsider their new policy of re-attaching leaders with single-sided splices.

My print arrived heads-out, with no reel bands. Leaders were secured with white paper artists tape. The head leader on the first reel was spliced on out of frame and with three layers of splicing tape (four on the single-sided splice side). The other reels were in similar condition (though the leaders were in frame). Tails on all reels (except the last) were attached with masking tape.

My "issue" is with the single-sided splices. Because they were made on top of several layers' worth of tape, they will need to be re-made, anyway (after removing the previous layers of tape). And they're useless at protecting film from edge damage, as any damage would have already been done in the initial trip from the previous theatre to TES. Worse, the single-sided splices on the head leaders might encourage a sucky reel-to-reel house to run the film as-is off the shipping reels, without giving any indication that the tails aren't properly attached, possibly causing damage to film and equipment.

I feel somewhat badly about saying this, as it is obvious that someone at TES is trying to improve their operations, but I'd say at this point that leaders should be left as-is, unless someone is going to rewind each reel, remove any existing tape, and make proper splices (single-sided or double-sided). Since that isn't going to happen, my current thinking is that the new practice is useless at best and counterproductive at worst. I'm open to being convinced otherwise, however, if there are dissenting views.

As for the spacers, I agree that they are a good idea in principle, though the whole problem would be solved if they would just use the proper can sizes in the first place, at least for second-run engagments, repertory titles, and for new prints which are not shipped with trailers.

(I still haven't seen those orange reels in an actual shipment, though jhawk showed me an early prototype).
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-11-2004, 08:28 PM:
 

quote: Scott Norwood

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I'm open to being convinced otherwise, however, if there are dissenting views.

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quote: Scott Norwood

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And they're useless at protecting film from edge damage, as any damage would have already been done in the initial trip from the previous theatre to TES.

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quote: Scott Norwood

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Worse, the single-sided splices on the head leaders might encourage a sucky reel-to-reel house to run the film as-is off the shipping reels, without giving any indication that the tails aren't properly attached, possibly causing damage to film and equipment.

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quote: Scott Norwood

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but I'd say at this point that leaders should be left as-is, unless someone is going to rewind each reel, remove any existing tape, and make proper splices (single-sided or double-sided).

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quote: Scott Norwood

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My print arrived heads-out, with no reel bands. Leaders were secured with white paper artists tape.

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quote: John Hawkinson

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(OK, I admit, if you have good reason to believe the print is lab-new and if and only if the head is uncut, then it might be reasonable if you were in a hurry).

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quote: Edward Jurich

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Regardless of how a print arrives, if there is space in the shipping can/box that prevents the reels from being snug, I stuff crumpled newspaper into the space so the reels are snug.

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quote: Brad Miller

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thus making it so that when the reel makes it's final spin, it will not release the tail.

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Yeah, I had this happen when building straight to the platter at a pretty high speed(in a hurry). I was expecting it to just release the tail like it should. It damn near knocked over the MUT, and scared the crap out of me. Wont make that mistake again!
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-30-2004, 02:51 AM:
 
Yea, I read that note as well with the spacer thingey: Easy solution: Fill that blank section in with your old trailers-either left on the stock core, or wind a bunch on one of those stock cores to the size of a reel, shove that roll in the empty space, since print's going back to ETS or TECH are eventually going back to the labs anywho for recycling.

Also, since I work in a sub-run/discount house, with prints coming in with leader's aready cut and retaped with the single side splicing tape, I'd still be more prone to cut and splice anew to make sure that I have a clean and tight splice to endure throughout the print's engagement as for when we had LOTR-III - we held that print for 12wks. For it was a used print, and after the engagement, my spices were still tight and ran thorugh the machine without any loop popping or frame jump when the splice ran through.

I just don't believe in using other operator's cuts and splices. I want a clean presentation-as if I was building a new print. -

Monte
 

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Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 11-30-2004, 04:57 AM:
 
oooh... not to beat a dead horse, but re-cutting the heads and tails, other than in the direst circumstances, is a very bad practice. there are many threads on this topic, but i'll just add that if the 2 film ends don't quite meet up at the splice, you can still cut a tiny wedge of opaque tape to lay over the gap at the soundtrack to avoid a pop. a discontinuity in the soundtrack due to frame chopping, however, is not something that can be so easily remedied by the next handler.

carl
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 11-30-2004, 05:13 AM:
 
Monte: Carl's statement definitely respects the concensus of most people here on Film-Tech. Any downside from trusting other operator's cuts is far outweighed by the worse downside of losing the continuity (in both sound and picture) of a frame.

Everyone should go to extreme measures to try to avoid losing frames, if it all feasable. If the previous operator has cut the frame down the middle or somesuch, OK, it's lost. But just because it is loaded with gummed up tape (clean with Renovex, Film-Guard, naphtha, etc.), or you have to peel off someone else's splicing tape is definitely no reason to cut.

Remember, 2 ID frames (the "norm") is 84ms (almost a tenth of a second), and cutting off 2 frames is 167ms; that is really quite noticable, especially if there is any dialogue, as there is more and more often these days.

Film Done Right means taking the time to preserve those frames and not taking the easy way out. Conversely, it means reassemblying the leaders to the reel with a single-sided splice on a splicer so the film isn't damaged by winding or shipping, and it is easy for the next guy to remove it (platter) or tape the other side (changeover). (Double-sided splice is also ok, but favors the rare c/o overator over the common platter operator.)

--jhawk
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-30-2004, 05:19 AM:
 
True, very true and well spoken as well.

There were times that I would try the solvent trick in removing the previous tape and see if the previous splice was good enough to use, but most of the time it was so gaudy of a splice made that I went to making new splices. (besides, the company I work for, this is their policy on splicing is to make new splices and their employees have been trained as such....can't turn that one around in a heartbeat).

As you can see and prob can tell, I don't work in a first-run house, working with new prints anymore. I used to treat these new prints like gold and ensured that they remained in the new condition when they left.

Now, I'm in a discount house, hassling with used prints, that they themselves have been hacked a couple of times, leaders with no "reference" frames remaining on the front of the head leader, (which is the worst thing to be dumped on when assembling a used print and the leaders were attached by masking tape and held down by the same and the ends come loose in the can and film all over in the cans..DAMMIT..what a mess!), or no leaders at all, prints scratched to smithereens from poor operations and then can't get replacement prints for the owners don't want to take the chance of being blamed for print damage from the depots, so thus, this is what I have to work with.

Plus, the other employee/operators don't care at all about film assemblies, even though I've taught them till I'm blue in the face..for they're under the control of the manager who doesn't really care as well..I'm just the local engineer/projectionist who have to "baby-sit" these morons to keep things running smooth.

I used to use the triangular opaque tape over the soundtrack area in the days of "who ever heard of digital soundtracks", and wanted to omit that dreaded "pop" on reel change. I used vinyl electrical tape for the triangle, then covered that with the splice tape. Worked pretty slick.

Nowdays, with DTS,SR-D and SDDS-(sony baloney), that small gap thingey isn't being the big topic anymore.

But you still get some operators who splice opaque tape on SR-D presentations and the good ol "pop" comes back when the processor can't switch back and forth from dig to opt fast enough, since that opaque tape blocks 4 sprockets of info-the 4 sprockets needed for a complete frame read from the track.

Should tell these operators of SpliceMark tape...and even that doesn't work most of the time....(sigh) the new generation just doesn't care...

It's just that where I came from the days of changeover booths and where the changeover was flawless and extremely smooth, I do my best to ensure that my presentations are the close to this changeover era...is why I always do new splices to keep the same smooth continuty as possible as I did with the changeover method.

Nothing bugs me more when others splice very sloppily, the picture jumps due to a sloppy splice, sound pops, using opaque tape, et.al. ... and the patron have to sit through that mess when they forked out over 8 bucks a ticket, when they can see a flawless performance when they buy/rent the DVD and watch this on their home theatre screens.

I miss working in first-run houses. I want to go back there.

thx - Monte
 

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Posted by Barry Martin (Member # 1376) on 11-30-2004, 03:09 PM:
 
Monte, I can understand why you might want to use your own tape and make a new splice but why a new cut? I think that is what the other guys are going on about. A projectionist re-splicing the head/tail on to the film is just good policy to keep the leader together during shipping and IF a changeover operator wants to use it he only need make one more side to that splice. But peeling off a one-sided splice is really easy and you can just re-make the splice without chopping frames unless they are really damaged. I run a twin and we show both new and sub-run/foreign/independent films so I get my share of both pristine and really used prints so I hear you when you talk about the quality of used prints. Some people just don't care enough to do a good job and it only hurts the audience.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-01-2004, 06:27 PM:
 
Thx for your reply, and clearing things out for me, Barry.

As I can tell from some of the members that correspond in this "Handler's Forum" are either from the Eastern part of the state where there it's of the mass population, and/or in large cities where such a demand of high quality resides. Now, granted, I'm not making any excuses, for what you fellows in this forum care about about SHOULD be, some form or another, a mandantory procedure for all theatres to follow, but the unfortunate lies in regions in parts of the USA, and Idaho is one of the states where this high calibre of operational procedures that you members of this forum are practicing, are extremely lacking in this state and some outlying areas - being that this state is not an industrial state (where the voters voted in the right to work act in the ballot of 1986), but more of an agricultural/"mom and pop"/privately business run type of atmosphere in this state. In other words, the theatre operators are simply saying: "Who cares, since we're not getting paid the big bucks to perform professional work?"

Thus, when I get some of the prints in from theatres here in Idaho that have played these prints (mainly the ETS prints), it's almost necessary to do a recut since the prior's theatre's print assembly is so very un-professional and un-caring, that I wouldn't even think of using theirs, so thus I have to do the recut.

The TECH prints that comes here, also experience some sloppy builds as well to where I also have to do the recuts.

In this area of the state, including some of the surrounding states, I know of no theatre that are still using changeover booths anymore, outside of one theatre near the Idaho/Oregon border that hasn't even changed their booth out (they still have Motiograph AA's, Mirrorphonic 7400's with the old bulb phototubes, Magnarcs, Motiograph sound, and using scotch tape for any splices using the Model 2 Griswald wet splicer since they never bought a tape splicer for the poly prints), and only operate on special occasions. There might be a changeover booth or two in Utah that I don't know about, but mainly here in Idaho, all has been converted over, or shut down.

The ETS prints that I get are mainly regional area useage. ETS, depot in SLC, covers the surrounding states. Whereas the TECH prints come from Ohio, or Cal.

Which brings up an interesting side question: Here, we have all of this blurb about TECH and their service-from what they were to what they are now-using spacer usage, requiring their spacers to be returned, new reel changes since some don't like their new reels, et.al. .. The big question is: What about ETS? For they do practically the same with shipments to discount and to new houses: the empty slot in the can where trailers and DTS disc are supposed to be (and how does anyone like the new DVD clear carriers that the discs comes in?) and the reels banging around in that empty area where ETS could put a "spacer" in, but no mention of this anywhere...? .. some thoughts.

Sorry to say, that I'm one of the remaining few, or only in this portion of this state that cares. Even when I present some professional topics to the company's brass that I work for, they themselves are perplexed, or even overwhelmed that what I present makes any sensible logic at all to them since they are in the amateur/conservative mode of operations. I feel, sometimes, like a duck out of water with the "new conservative thinking" of amateur operations these days-for they "just don't care.."

.. I'm one of the "dying breed" of projectionists. If I moved to an area where this talent is still used in a professional, required sense, I'd be learning a whole much more and be able to really understand how all of you fellows tick and think in this field of motion picture presentation.

-thx .. Monte
 

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Posted by Barry Martin (Member # 1376) on 12-01-2004, 09:38 PM:
 
Monte, while I appreciate your response, I feel obligated to make sure you know I'm nowhere near the craftsman most of the players on this forum are. I learned to thread from Loews, learned to troubleshoot by practice because I was running 60-100 shows per day at a 20 plex and am now trying to get the mechanical aspect of it down by working with techs and reading everything on this site. In Vermont I can almost guarantee you there is either very few or NO "Film-Done-Right" projectionists working and even more surprising is the films I get from Mass. and New Hampshire. Hardly anyone does things the logical and intelligent way they should and keep in mind not only their audience but the audience and hassle being presented to the operator receiving the print after them.

However, I do not excuse myself from doing things the best way I can at every opportunity because of this information. In fact, whenever I get a new print in, I send it back out with a note about how I made up/broke down the print and why. I leave a link to this site and my theater name/address/number/email in case they have questions. I do this because I can't simply sit around and complain that nobody cares without doing something about it. I feel most of the people handling film improperly are only doing so because that's how their company has trained them. Loews certainly didn't teach me Film Done Right, I learned on my own, from good projectionists, techs, and this site. More importantly, I'm still learning.

So, if you come across a destroyed frame, junk it. Better to lose that 24th/second than show it destroyed or worse yet have it cause a problem and damage more frames/equipment. I just ran Indian In the Cupboard for a group of schoolkids and this print was terrible, especially at reel changes and without any film cleaner. I warned them that the print was extremely used and in some spots a bit dirty and scratched but the story was intact and of course that's all they could ask for. Now of course they could have just rented it and shown it in school but they would rather come to a theater, even knowing the presentation might not be excellent.

As far as the "brass" is concerned, remind them to read their license agreements with the studios and how much a print/reel costs to replace and see if the bottom line shows it would be better to do things properly than get caught purposefully damaging the film and charged replacement costs. Just my thoughts
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-02-2004, 12:59 AM:
 
Once again, thx as always for your replies, Barry.

Course, "Indian in the Cupboard" was an triacetate print..from 1995. And hope that you had no problems with this print, for I'm sure that you placed this print on the bench and did a thorough inspection before mounting this print onto the platter.

I started out in a drive-in, near my hometown back in 1969, playing with Motiograph AA's, Ballantyne soundheads, Ashcraft 10mm rotators carbons, Motiograph amplifiers and soundchangover control, and the good ol' foot dowsers.

The operator that trained me was one of these, "oh well, it's a part-time job" type of guy. His training procedures was so unorganized, it was pathetic. His method of teaching me splicing techniques with the wet splicer was absolutely goofy and backwards. When I was going solo, I, more or less retrained myself of a bunch of projection skills that when he quit, the presentation were much better. And, he didn't even taught me how to do the "setting the intermittent" thing. The owner taught me on that one a few months later. Afterwards, I began to study parts manuals on all kinds of machinery to figure how these things tick and work. It didn't take me long to add two and two together to come up with the logical reason on things work.

Yet, while at this drive-in, we had a routine that was quite well organized: Scrub and polish the mirrors down with Bon-ami every day before opening. Clean out the stacks one a week, grease the gears down twice a month and all of this was on Mondays. Check the water in the 5gallon cooling pumps, that kept the silver positive contacts in the Ashcrafts in check. I would come in two hrs early on these Mondays to do all of this required maintanence. Then go out in the yard and do speaker checks/repairs during days as well-to keep up with this maintenance as well. And all tools use are to be returned to the toolbox-not left around to be forgotten and lost.

I didn't "graduate" to the automated/xenon booth until the mid-80s, when the last theatre I worked at closed down and I went to another theatre that was converted to xenon and automated operations.

Yes, I knew a bunch of employee/operators who worked at Lowes Cineplex in this area before LCE pulled out of Idaho and Utah in 2000 when the big theatre crash hit the business in that year. It was just a mess and a half on how they were trained, let alone on knowing on what they were doing and maintaining a passable presentation, so a big time "CONGRATS" to you on your achievements that you have accomplished and learned from those who knew what was going on-about the only way to learn for sure.

I've even seen the booth training manual that Lowes had, and this didn't really pin-point on things in a more discrete fashion. Like it was written by a management committee of some sorts who themselves really haven't the foggiest on what is what.

If may, I can be of help if any questions if you want. I used to work at a 21plex as "Presentation Manager" (fancy name for chief projectionist), I had a crew of 6, including myself handling all of the 21 Christie equipment that we had. I managed the crew, did the scheduling, instructed on routine maintenance, instructed on machine servicing, hired whom I wanted, then eventually gained the title of Engineer along with the management title, since I did almost all of the "tekkie" stuff as well. But as things happen, the 21plex was sold to another comapany, and my title is not valid with this new company, thus my talents and responsibilites were not needed. So, I left and became an engineer/projectionist with this small company in the Boise area...and this is where I am now.

Thx again as always, and it's glad to hear from another operator that is learning the hard way as I did. - Monte
 

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