quote: John T. Hendrickson, Jr

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some of the new reels apparently emerged from the mold with irregular surfaces that were not smooth

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quote: Wolff King Morrow

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Almost all of the orange reels I got were horribly bent.

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Shoot and ship, shoot and ship, shoot and ship! Sounds like whoever is manufacturing these reels didn't quote them properly and are running them faster than they should, and by the sounds of it, way too hot (but are lowering their cycle times, and warping the reels, due to the excess temperature). Either that or they're just incompetent, lots of those folks in the business too. I bet they call their moulds dies.
 

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Posted by Dean Kollet (Member # 1789) on 10-01-2004, 11:05 PM:
 
the ones we got were fine...and we usually get broken ones. I don't know if I like them yet....the black ones which look similiar (more holes) seem almost the same to me...
 

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Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 10-02-2004, 03:34 PM:
 
We had already received Open Water on the new reels. But Shark Tale was the straw that broke the camel's back for us. All 4 prints had the first reel on one of the new orange reels, and none of them were tightly snapped in. They were just as wobbly as many of the translucent TES reels I've received

By the way, who is the "industry veteran" who "has pledged suggestions for the new reel mold," as stated in the memo enclosed with Shark Tale? Brad...?
 

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Posted by David Buckley (Member # 2600) on 10-02-2004, 06:16 PM:
 

quote: Scott Norwood

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TES and ETS should ship new-from-the-lab. prints just as they come: on cores, in a cardboard box

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quote: Michael Cunningham

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while working with an industry professional on future improvements. Is that you Brad?

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quote: Brad Miller

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Yes, they are implementing the half dozen design flaws I pointed out to them a week or two ago on their next mold.

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So, quit asking if the industry pro is Brad, already. It is.

Why are they putting out reels that have so many design flaws in the first place? Is the reel-manufacturing industry owned by Microsoft or something??
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-03-2004, 10:09 PM:
 
Are you implying that Brad is responsible for the design flaws of the current batch of reels?

From reading those two separate posts, I got the impression that someone else had designed the current reels and that Brad suggested improvements upon that design (which we have yet to see).

So...the only other suspect would be jhawk!

Will the REAL "industry veteran" please stand up?

(Neither one of those guys is what I'd call a "veteran" but whatever...they're the only two leads I've got...)
 

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Posted by Dean Kollet (Member # 1789) on 10-03-2004, 10:13 PM:
 
alright, I re-read my contract and was able to find a loophole...so I will disclose.

I was the original "mold consultant" but we couldn't agree so I left, therefore they went for their second choice....Brad Miller. I hope he can improve what I couldn't....Good Luck Brad
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-03-2004, 10:25 PM:
 
I had nothing to do with the current orange reels in the field. For that matter neither did jhawk. Those reels were designed by Circular Motion Products on their own. I pointed out half a dozen design flaws which they are going to implement on the next batch, of which some of those flaws have since been pointed out on this thread by others. I also had nothing to do with the "veteran" term chosen in that note, if that makes you feel any better Manny.
 

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Posted by Erica Peterson (Member # 1784) on 11-10-2004, 11:35 AM:
 
We got a fax from Technicolor a couple days ago, beginning: "Attention Theatre Personnel: We have received many suggestions from the theater community regarding the new TCD orange split reel. We have met with our manufacturer regarding your suggestions. The following is a summary of the changes that will be made to all reels produced after November 15, 2004. When noted, please refer to the attached pictures."

There's a page of problems/fixes, and a page of photos. Could somebody else who got the fax make a scanned copy available online? Our fax had some toner issues - the memo is very difficult to read and the pictures are worse.
 

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Posted by Chase Hanson (Member # 2779) on 11-10-2004, 01:48 PM:
 
I rather like the new orange reels over the old ones. Of course I mostly do teardown so all it has to do is hold up well under spinning really fast.
 

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Posted by Joseph Pandolfi (Member # 223) on 11-20-2004, 05:20 PM:
 
Got the fax also the other day regarding the issue on the orange reels. One main fix will be matching key slots to eliminate MUT table "wobble" when rewinding. Also drilling a hole on the oposite site for the drive pins. Another fix would align the flange (spoke) so it will not be in the way when you insert the tail in the core, this eliminating "taping" the end to the core.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-20-2004, 06:50 PM:
 
The note about fixes was enclosed in our National Treasure print.

Even without the proposed fixes, the orange reels are a vast improvement in that they actually stay together. Kudos for that!
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-20-2004, 10:05 PM:
 
Orange Reel Memo .pdf file on technicolor.com site. (Takes a while to open, even on a high speed connection.)
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-29-2004, 03:02 PM:
 
Those orange reels are a definite improvement over anything that TECH had in their store, and I really can't see anything wrong with these reels whatsoever. Just a great improvement in their shipping concept.

Granted, one must make sure that they're snapped together before assembling the prints to the platter (seems like this is a TECH assembly line issue that they need to clear up..), but when I saw the revision note in the cans, I couldn't think that we should just to back to the old Goldberg/Film Metal Box metal reels that just can only get bent, and can be brought back to shape with a tweak here and there, so all of the pitty-patty complaints on any plastic reels can cease.

Shoot, ETS prints NEVER have any of the complaints that TECH receives (as far as we know of..)...and some of their reels have their questions also, but one just lives with the ETS way of thing.

thx-Monte
 

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Posted by Michael Wilkinson (Member # 2389) on 11-30-2004, 02:00 AM:
 
Just roll with the punches.
Does anybody believe that the perfect shipping reel is out there?
Or maybe better stated: Does anybody believe that we-the end users will ever be blessed with perfect shipping reels?
If so:
1) Does anybody believe that reels will always be assembled properly at the depot? I had an interesting orange reel assemby with a mismatched core on one reel. Suffice to say that I put the core on a split reel for build up.
2) Will the reel inventory ever really get standardized?
3) Does anyone remember the plastic 6000's? There was a stellar idea .

The Cynic
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-30-2004, 03:00 AM:
 
The "perfect" reel will never happen. However Technicolor has been taking some extensive steps to ensure that you no longer receive reels put together incorrectly. For example, they now have a drive dog on their assembly spindles. Furthermore, the latest design of orange reel (which I believe will start shipping next month) has been designed so that it is pretty much impossible to assemble incorrectly, and is fully compatible with all reel arms and platter MUTs.

They are trying. Be happy, give 'em a break.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-30-2004, 03:06 AM:
 
Those were the most worthless POS that was made: those 6k plastic reels. Too flimsy, cases to awkward to handle, esp. for short people, ETS drivers hated them with a passion. And on top in using the 4inch core with that much film and what a pain to put on a Strong, LP-271's, or the early CHR's AW2 MUTs.
 

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Posted by Michael Wilkinson (Member # 2389) on 12-04-2004, 10:23 PM:
 
Yeah,
I still have a gigantic carriage bolt with blue plastic residue on it...just in case they ever show up again.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-05-2004, 08:33 AM:
 
The perfect shipping reel already exists. It is the black plastic type (solid hub, not clip-together) made by "Hollywood Film Company" with the metal insert for the spindle. I have yet to find a reel arm, rewind bench, or MUT which won't accept these and they seem to be very well made.
 

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Posted by Jon Miller (Member # 163) on 12-05-2004, 09:52 AM:
 
An HFC reel...



I second Scott's recommendation. The smooth, well-molded finger holes are also very easy to grasp. Definitely the Rolls-Royce of plastic shipping reels.

Alas, the paranoid distributors can't separate the flanges in order to destroy a print after its run.
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 12-05-2004, 10:10 AM:
 
So, of course "perfect" is in the eye of the beholder. The cost savings to the exchange of a clip-together reel is pretty large, I think. If that's intended to be a serious suggestion, well...it's like saying the perfect reel is the Goldberg aluminum 15" cast aluminum reel (5" hub diameter variety).



Nevermind that it lists for $95, has substantial weight, and is kinda wide for ICC cans.

You would need a very convincing argument that touches on the financials.

--jhawk
(picture from rsem.com)
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-05-2004, 03:13 PM:
 
I believe they said

quote:

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Definitely the Rolls- Royce of plastic shipping reels.

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This may shock you Jhawk, but I'm actually not a fan of those Goldberg reels. I will run shows any day of the week on the HFC plastic ones that Scott posted about over a Goldberg. They are lighter weight and produce perfectly smooth film winds in pretty much any scenario. I keep coming across too many Goldberg reels that have bent flanges, and they are damn near impossible to try and re-bend the flanges back flat. The HFC reels do not suffer this. It is for this reason that I have given away my collection of Goldberg reels in favor of HFC reels in my screening room, and every theater I have serviced that had Goldbergs did the same thing. (BTW, I'm not saying the Goldberg reels are crap. If I couldn't have the HFC reels, the Goldberg would be my second choice.)

Anyway, these HFC reels are perfect except for one tiny flaw. If you are running/storing with lab leaders only, those leaders are not long enough to put enough wraps around the hub to prevent crease marks from occuring down the center of the film where the two halves of the reel were glued together over time. This isn't so much of a problem with the heads, but the tails are noticeable. So prints stored heads out on these reels, without extra tail leader added, will have crease marks during the last 10 seconds of the reel or so. (But what bonehead doesn't add extra tail leader anyway???)

Still that's a pretty minor gripe for an otherwise PERFECT reel design. If only they clipped together! Oh well, nothing is perfect, but I do think everyone will love version 2 of the upcoming orange TES reels. I just got a prototype and it seems they have fixed all of the problems with it.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-05-2004, 06:59 PM:
 
..Yea great reel those HFC's - manage to hang on to a few of them. Reminds you of a plastic version of a new Goldberg reel that haven't seen any abuse - just well rounded, solid, straight and well built.

Many-a-times when a film would come in on metal reels and having to bend the flanges out to almost straight to payout/takeup the film on. That was a projectionist's challenge to do. Only thing I do miss with the old Goldbergs' is to find the studio's moniker and the month and year they bought the reel which they stamped on the flanges. I've seen Goldbergs with year stampings in the '30s.

Then,TECH that found a maker to take that Hollywood Film Corp reel design, stick their "TES" moniker around the flange and made it into a split reel to mount their cores on. And then from there on, we had nothing but a stack of problems with those split reels, especially when TECH would never throw away the ones that were starting to break, have broken, never stayed clamped together, to where I would glue the damned things back together so they would stay together when breaking down and shipping out.

Then, TECH took that design and modify it some, which was an improvement, but still couldn't stay together after awhile, and the big bummer is when we discount houses gets a print that TECH didn't check over, and the last user's MUT wound the film on loose on the core and they place that reel in the can, we pull that reel out of the can, flanges fall off and with that loose film windage, see the core slide out of that windage and that reel of film cascade on the floor.

Never had any of these sort of problems with ETS ..
 

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Posted by Michael Wilkinson (Member # 2389) on 12-08-2004, 06:04 AM:
 
Here's a shot of this week's champion fall apart reel-not an orange one sorry to say...Not to mention the obvious crappy wind job! The picture doesn't do justice to how the film was wound onto the reel like it was on a dish or something!

 

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Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 12-08-2004, 07:02 AM:
 
As a general note for those who may not be aware the above pictured reel came from an ETS depot.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-09-2004, 01:01 AM:
 
(WOW..a CHR AW2...any problems with the modules that are in the end of the platter arms?)

Now..that draws an interesting question: Does both, ETS and TECH depots, receive their new prints from the labs themselve on these cores, or do they arrive on different cores then have to be mounted on the depot's cores before the flange assembly? Why I ask this one, for I've seen prints come in from ETS that are still sealed by the lab, whereas TECH print's seals were broken before mounting and shipping. If this is the case above, esp with ETS, then it's the lab who can't do even winds on the cores before sending them out to the depots....- thx Monte

[ 12-09-2004, 03:28 AM: Message edited by: Monte L Fullmer ]
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-09-2004, 08:11 AM:
 
Actually there are lots of AW-2 platters still running just fine over in Twin Falls!

Mark
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-09-2004, 08:42 AM:
 
The whole point of the plastic split reel is so that prints may be mounted / unmounted without winding so yeah, the labs supply them on suitable cores. There may be exceptions like maybe when one of their clients is using prints made by a smaller or overseas lab and is supplied on 3" cores and of course sometimes the lab is ordered to supply a print already mounted and these reels may be standard plastic (not split) reels. But for the most part it's a matter of tearing off the shrink wrap and popping on two flanges.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-09-2004, 09:04 AM:
 
I favor the cast aluminum goldberg reel if they are bent it isn't the reels fault but a negligent operator who dropped them
Also they have a larger centre core 5" than the plastic reels 4" and that can be an issue with some takeup systems
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-09-2004, 01:39 PM:
 
Yea, Larry's Cinemas. And we had two AW2' up in Ontario at the Centre that I had to take out, which were running fine, and relplaced with the AP-3's that were in storage. Now, that theatre is shut down again.
 

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Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 12-09-2004, 09:16 PM:
 
Mike's AW2s are custom jobs utilizing a SPECO-style outer-rim drive method and I know he has done other tweeks and stuff to them over the years..

-Aaron
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-09-2004, 11:08 PM:
 

quote: Monte L Fullmer

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Now, that theatre is shut down again.

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Reopening it was a waste of time, money, and peoples efforts. It should be converted for other use or torn down to make a parking lot.....

Actually the AW-2's are better than the AP3 if updated and maintained correctly. They are LESS likely to damage film.

Brad,

I totally agree with you on the HFC plastic reels!! They are the safest to use and gentlest on film. Best plastic reels ever made and I'll take them any day over any Goldberg product. Goldberg SUCKS !

Mark
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 12-10-2004, 11:05 AM:
 
If I had to pick a plastic split-reel, my first choice would be these, most often used on New Line prints:



Manufactured by "FilmTreat" These are made of a very hard but smooth plastic. They don't get warped or bent out of shape, the clip in the center holds the ends together tight, but is easy to take apart, too. The only drawback is that there's only one hole on the hub for the 2nd spindle.

=TMP=
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-10-2004, 01:40 PM:
 
Re: the FilmTreat reel above. Last I heard from Helmut, they were adding a second drive pin hole AND making the spokes of the flanges a little bit wider to make marking a "fill line" with a piece of 3/4" tape easier.

On the same subject, each print of Meet the Fockers is going to have one of the new orange TES reels (not the original ones everyone has already seen, but the revised ones with the flaws corrected).
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-10-2004, 02:29 PM:
 
Well...not all of the prints.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-10-2004, 03:32 PM:
 
True, the FilmTreat reels are great, but have to tell the depots to not use two-hole cores, for that covers up that one drive hole, then we have to take apart that reel, mount that core on a split reel to break down, then transfer the filled core back to the flanges (or, get nasty and drill our own drive hole in the cores...)

Curious, does anyone do the "putting a piece of masking tape on the film wind on the platter" where the splice joints are to identify them when breaking down, or use "Edgemark" tape, so no need of marking the flanges with those fill lines, cuz when the depots switch out prints, they don't bother in taking off those tape thingeys on the reel, where I have to take them off since the lines don't match up with what's on the reel?

Mark showed me that "Edgemark" stuff and it's pretty slick to use.

Mark - I agree fully about the AW-2's being much better with film handling than the AP3's, but I had to take them out, even these at the Centre were running great-film payout was smooth, platters in time..but you know the rest of the story..
 

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Posted by Helmut E. Dorausch (Member # 1356) on 12-10-2004, 04:03 PM:
 
Per the recommendation of our Patent Attorney, I will NOT be discussing this particular Forum Topic in any detail.
The changes to the Filmtreat Reel (US Patent # 6702228) which Brad mentioned, will be evident beginning early in 2005.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL
Helmut E. Dorausch
Filmtreat West Corp.
 

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Posted by Michael Wilkinson (Member # 2389) on 12-12-2004, 03:17 PM:
 
I don't want to talk too much about the AW2 on this thread. But to answer the question about the control modules. I have replaced 1 since 1996. My retrofit greatly reduces the motor load on those control mods.
If I see a relevant platter topic, I'll give the specifics.
 

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Posted by Cory Isemann (Member # 2517) on 12-15-2004, 09:56 AM:
 
I've been known to drill a new spindle hole in some older FilmTreat reels.
 

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Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 12-15-2004, 05:51 PM:
 
Cory, I did that the first time we got a print with them. There was no other way to break the print down except dink around with 6k's or screw around with taking reels apart. I said 'screw it!' and grabbed the drill. Worked great .
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 12-15-2004, 07:31 PM:
 

quote: Dustin Mitchell

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I said 'screw it!' and grabbed the drill.

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Pun Intended?

=TMP=
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-21-2004, 09:12 AM:
 
OK, I wonder who is going to be the first wiseguy at a multiplex to populate a couple of empty film cases with 100% spacer reels stickered "DO NOT WIND FILM ON THIS REEL" swiped from other prints just to tease someone about to break a print down.
 

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