Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Lab Production Problems

This is topic Lab Production Problems in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 10-03-2004, 12:02 AM:

I received a note with my print of "Woman Thou Art Loosed" that stated the following:

quote:
Due to production error, your print of Woman Thou Art Loosed may have base side of the film facing out. Please note this while building up the print.

We apologize for inconvenience this has caused your theatre.

My questions are:

1. What kind of problems would I see / have? Bad focus?
2. What good would it to "note" it? If you are careful during building, then you should be ok.

Thanks

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-03-2004, 12:17 AM:

Is it possible that they meant that the print (or some reels) was printed so that correct orientation requires it to run with the emulsion side towards the lens rather than towards the lamp? If so it will play ok but there will be a big focus jump between it and normally oriented material. It would dull the high end off analog sound and might prevent successfull SR∙D or SDDS playback, particularly the latter. DTS would probably read ok.

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 10-05-2004, 10:00 AM:

Or it could be that they wound the film onto the reel with the base side out. It seems to me that they'd be more likely to send a note for this kind of problem, rather than a different printing technique like Steve mentioned. Sad, but that's what they'd make me expect!

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-05-2004, 11:10 AM:

Probably true. Odd that a warning is required. Film can be wound on a reel any one of 4 different ways. Certainly tails-out often comes either way all the time. Since heads-out emulsion-out is an industry standard and emulsion-in is recommended by tests (or at least was during acetate days) no one ought to be confused by it.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-05-2004, 11:15 AM:

The "standard" emulsion position for 35mm release prints specified by SMPTE 194-2002 is with the emulsion toward the lamp:

quote:
2.1 The photographic emulsion shall be on the side of the film which faces away from the projector
lens. The projectable image area is specified in SMPTE 195.

A 35mm print with the correct emulsion orientation will "read" correctly through the emulsion side.

Incorrect emulsion orientation could have been caused by printing the negative through the base -- this results in some loss of sharpness. And the incorrect orientation will need to be refocused relative to the other parts of the print having the correct orientation.

Incorrect emulsion orientation cannot be corrected.

Simple winding orientation can be reversed by rewinding the print.

quote: Steve Kraus
Since heads-out emulsion-out is an industry standard and emulsion-in is recommended by tests (or at least was during acetate days) no one ought to be confused by it.

"Heads-out emulsion-out" is NOT an "industry standard", but it is the most common practice, especially for labs that use "loop" type printers. We've discussed the emulsion-in recommendation of SMPTE Recommended Practice RP 39, which definitely helps the focus stability of triacetate prints.

[ 10-05-2004, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: John Pytlak ]

Posted by Dominic Case (Member # 1830) on 10-05-2004, 10:00 PM:

Hard to imagine that this really means that the print was produced with incorrect geometry (i.e. requiring base towards the lamp). The note that Paul quotes from seems to indicate that the entire copy is the same. As different reels are usually printed on different printers, I can't understand a mistake of this type occurring. (Though I admit anything is possible).

Seems more likely that this is the lesser sin of incorrect orientation on the spool. In which case, it ought to be obvious when you build the print, and a warning shouldn't be necessary: but surely it is better practice for the lab to alert the projectionist rather than leave the careful projectionist discover the problem all over again, and the slapdash one to get into trouble.

Better still to correct it in the lab of course - but time is always the bugbear, and rewinding however many reels and copies would probably have resulted in late delivery. Can't win!

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 10-06-2004, 07:09 AM:

So, Paul, are you going to keep us in suspense? [Wink]

Was it winding orientation, or is the emulsion actually on the wrong side? (or neither, given the "may")

--jhawk

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-06-2004, 02:46 PM:

From Technicolor:

quote:
There seems to be some confusion on the web-site about the meaning of the note included in "Woman Thou Art Loosed." Prints are always shipped from Technicolor emulsion out. This title was base out. Because this varied from the norm, we just wanted to include a note that clarified the issue. It seems to have created more confusion than anything else. Nothing unusual about the prints, just wound the "wrong" way.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-06-2004, 09:36 PM:

Actually they shipped it the right way [Big Grin]

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 10-06-2004, 10:10 PM:

The majority of the prints I get come this way... mostly from Technicolor Rome.

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 10-07-2004, 02:46 PM:

With the foot of tape they're using to secure heads nowadays, I've sometimes opened up a can and thought that the print had been wound base side out, and the head IDs were showing... [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-07-2004, 03:03 PM:

But you haven't had a single leader be loose and unraveled inside the can either, have you? [Cool]

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 10-08-2004, 10:27 AM:

quote: Brad Miller
But you haven't had a single leader be loose and unraveled inside the can either, have you?

Touche, my rants on that tape are dying since they finally started using it, in whatever incarnation. [Smile]

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 10-10-2004, 12:29 AM:

After having to deal with an bollywood movie on thursday, I can attest to this. Although it would have been nice if they at least reattached the leaders.

Josh