Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Projector Age

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Posted by Rich Ferrando (Member # 2056) on 10-04-2004, 03:53 PM:

Is there a way to tell how old a particular projector is based on serial number? For instance, one of the Century JJ's that we have is serial #164, and seeing as how the JJ was introduced in 1960, leads me to believe that the projector is probably from that decade. But is there any way to know for sure? Any place on the projector that's stamped with a date of manufacture?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-04-2004, 07:40 PM:

Your JJ is actually the 64th one built. They started at SN 100 for that machine. I used to own 100 and 101. Yours was more than likely built during the first few months of production. I was told by reliable sources close to the original Century company that any JJ under S/N 500 were the best made of all the units. That makes yours the thiird oldest one that I am aware of..... The oldest here in SLC is S/N 364 and 365.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 10-04-2004, 07:49 PM:

Out of curiosity, what changed after S/N 500 that made them not as good?

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-04-2004, 08:01 PM:

Mark -- s/n #118 is (or at least was, when I last worked there a couple of years ago) in cinema 1 at the Chestnut Hill Cinema in Chestnut Hill, MA. It gave a great picture. It was installed in the mid-90s after being moved from another theatre. There are a couple of shots of it in the picture gallery (under "GCC Chestnut Hill").

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-04-2004, 08:24 PM:

Scott, that is an old one! I'm glad its still up and ruinning. After about SN 500 the company had some labor problems which resulted in alot of the jigs and tooling and such being discarded and re arranged so to say. This threw the tolerances off and later machines were very poor... you didn't know wjhat you were going to get... sort of like when ORC was building Centurys.
Perhaps there is someone here that knows a bit more about what exactly happened at the factory... but I was told it was union related.

Mark

Posted by Robert Throop (Member # 61) on 10-05-2004, 09:55 AM:

I once ran sn's 416 & 417 at the Kallet Cinema in Utica, NY. One is now in the Paris theatre in NYC and the other is in Loew's Village 7 also in NYC. I think that both have been converted to single shutter.
Does anyone know when Century changed from the H type trap to the A type?

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 10-05-2004, 10:09 AM:

Labor issues where noticeable when I visited the Century plant in the early 1970's to pick up some parts. The General manager had to plead to the stock person to open the stock cage since it was after 3 p.m. The original factory was in a industrial loft building with about 12 employees; the appearance of the place gave you the impression that the employees where not happy campers....20 + years and two owners to become part of Strong [Smile]

Posted by Dean Kollet (Member # 1789) on 10-05-2004, 10:47 AM:

quote: Ken Lackner
Out of curiosity, what changed after S/N 500 that made them not as good?

Happens with EVERY product made. Why were Martin and Taylor guitars mae 20 years ago the best ones either company has ever made?

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-05-2004, 10:50 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
I'm glad its still up and ruinning

Ruinning? I know you're a Norelco partisan but no reason to diss a fine machine. [Big Grin]

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-05-2004, 01:42 PM:

So how was the quality of Century machines circa 1970? I own a pair of model MSAs (s/n 952 and 953), which were originally delivered in 1970 (I have the delivery paperwork and invoices). They're a slightly different (lighter?) color of paint than most Centurys that I've seen.

These machines put out a rock-steady picture (better than any other Centurys I've run), although that may have more to do with the fact that they're almost new (they spent their previous life in a little-used screening room) than the fact that they're built particularly well. The intermittents do leak a bit, which I assume is due to poor manufacturing tolerances and not over-use.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-05-2004, 09:39 PM:

By 1970 it was alot better as I think that some other company had bought Century by then and straightened out all the labor issues they had with the machinist union. Century made it through a number of ups and downs with the biggest downs being during the machinist union problems, when they were at ORC. The present owners have not done justice to the Century very much either except to raise the price way above what it should be for such a simple mechanism. I guess thats why there is a Cinecitta and a Monee.

Mark

Posted by Rich Ferrando (Member # 2056) on 10-06-2004, 01:19 AM:

The geek in me is now quite... well, geeked. :-) We may well have the fourth and fifth oldest JJ's still running (more may come forward, but I'll just turn off my ears and stay in my cloud of disillusionment.)

The two JJ's we have are SN's 164 and 183. The theater used to be a single screen, built in 1944, but was expanded to a trio in the early 90's, so my guess is that the two projectors were originally in a changeover system in the big house, then separated when they built the addition and added platters.

It kinda makes me curious as to how many of the original parts are still in them. (Had to replace the main drive assembly in #164 about two weeks ago. I hung the gnawed phenolic gear in a conspicuous place in the booth next to a sign that says "Grease is Good. This is Bad.")

Our third Century is an SAW, #3279. Any ideas about the age of this one? The local Tech God who does our emergency maintenance says it's likely from the 1950's?

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 10-06-2004, 01:30 AM:

quote: Rich Ferrando
I hung the gnawed phenolic gear in a conspicuous place in the booth next to a sign that says "Grease is Good. This is Bad." ... The local Tech God who does our emergency maintenance says it's likely from the 1950's?

Sounds like he should do some preventative maintenance too!

Posted by Rich Ferrando (Member # 2056) on 10-06-2004, 01:52 AM:

He does, quarterly. But the gear had been going for a while. He had recommended it be changed out almost a year before it kaputted. But, you know these corporations. Money only appears after something breaks, never while it's breaking.

There's been a regular monthly lube and oil schedule since before I started just over a year ago. Unfortunately, the previous managers had a neglectful mindset.

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 10-06-2004, 03:16 AM:

our jj is #281. i was talking to an old-timer (not that old, really) a couple months ago who thought he knew the theater it had been in before ours, but damned if i remember.

carl

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-11-2004, 09:01 PM:

For those who may or may not care, I dug out the paperwork for my projectors to check on the original price. The quote (from Capitol Motion Picture in NYC, which I believe still exists) in 1970 was for $9938.29, which is roughly equivalent to $47,780.24 in 2004 dollars. [Eek!]

The original quote included the following items:

- 2x Century MSA projector heads
- 2x Century soundheads with "completely transistorized" model 67 sound system
- 2x Century 4-point pedestals with lamphouse mounting support table
- lens adapters, stop rings, aperture plates
- 2x Kneisley L100 lamphouses and R2180 rectifiers with 3 bulbs (includes one spare)
- 4x B&L lenses (2 flat, 2 scope); 2x ISCO scope lenses
- 1x University Column speaker
- Hurley matte screen and screen frame
- other stuff: 1x set handcrank rewinds, 1x Neumade cement splicer, 12x house reels, 1x pint film cement, 1x gallon projector oil, 2x Hatke reel end alarms, 2x zipper changeovers ("no foot switches"), 1x Clint Phare cue marker, 1x oil can, 1x spare motor drive belt, 3x takeup belts.

That price almost seems high, when compared to what similar equipment would cost if purchased new today.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-11-2004, 09:07 PM:

Consider the quality of today's product. [Mad]

Posted by Bill Carter (Member # 156) on 10-12-2004, 03:14 PM:

Capitol in NYC does indeed still exist.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-12-2004, 09:37 PM:

quote: Steve Kraus
Consider the quality of today's product.

Thats definately not totally true. There are many improvements over older produced projectors. On Centurys and Simplexs most notably the main castings are far, far superior to tke older porus crap castings that were produced. Strong's foundry is definately doing a great job there. Simplex's if properly maintained leak alot less than they used to..... but on the other hand the movements are very inferior to what was actually made by Simplex in their heyday. As for others... the Christie P-35 has gone through many gestations and versions, usually an improvement. The latest and final version is actually an excellent projector, it will be discontinued soon in favor of an all new belt scheme that utilizes round tooth timming belts and hard coat/teflon pulleys. This version eliminates one sprocket completely and the sound head and SRD basement reader work perfect. I've also seen far fewer failures of Ultramittents in the last year. One would assume that other manufacturers(except Shakeamecannica with the stupid curved gate for the Vic 5)has made some strides as far as improvement.

Mark

[ 10-12-2004, 11:17 PM: Message edited by: Mark Gulbrandsen ]

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-14-2004, 10:18 AM:

How funny...considering I learned older was better from you. [Confused]

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 10-21-2004, 11:59 AM:

Not an exact date, but the JJ's I worked with (ser# 158 & 159 - not far from Rich F.'s #164) were, I was told, installed for 'West Side Story' (1961.)

Posted by Nathan Guerriero (Member # 1214) on 10-21-2004, 01:11 PM:

The Biograph Theartre JJs, so recently decomissioned, are SN #147 and 148. Over the years, #148 has generously donated a few parts to his younger brother, but for the most part they are both in excellent condition.

Posted by Robert Throop (Member # 61) on 10-21-2004, 04:15 PM:

John and Nathan,
Did your JJ's have H type gates and traps or A type?
Thanks

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-21-2004, 05:46 PM:

Wouldn't #147 be the older brother? I wonder where they came from. They couldn't have pulled much 70mm duty at the Biograph.

Posted by Nathan Guerriero (Member # 1214) on 10-21-2004, 07:37 PM:

Yes, apologies to all. JJ #147 would indeed be the older brother. I'm afraid I don't have any firm answers to either of your questions, Steve, but please allow me to speculate:

I have no idea where the JJs came from, but I seem to remember James Bond mentioning to me that they were installed sometime in the 80s when Cineplex Odeon took over the theatre. The projectors are tagged with Cineplex ID tags and the automation control panels have the Cineplex Odeon logo on them.

As for what kind of use they saw, I can say that in 4 years at the helm of the theatre, neither saw any 70mm. The booth seemed well equiped for it, though. All the gates, traps, rollers, lenses, etc. were present, as well as a pristine 70mm splicer. The platters had 35/70 rollers on them as well. On one of the 70mm big reels there was a trailer for Coming to American, so you know, draw your own conclusions.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-21-2004, 08:03 PM:

There are two possibilities judging by the serial numbers..... They're either from the Michael Todd Theatre or the Esquire. Now the Esquire ean alot of 70mm up to the end when Esanness(more like B&S)had it. With that low of a serial number the first choice would be my bet. No one ever seemed to know where the Todd JJ's went..... you may have solved that. BTW: The Cinestage had DP-70's but the booth in the Todd right next door was too small for the DP's so they used JJ's, both had Super Cinex's.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-22-2004, 10:57 AM:

A reliable source says the Biograph JJ's came out of Minnesota. He also mentioned that Lonny Jennings was keeping a database on JJ's just as others have tracked Norelco DP-70/AA-II's.

(Can you imagine a DLP unit ever having such a devoted following?)

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 10-22-2004, 07:37 PM:

Hi Robert: I'm not sure what H or A type gates/traps are... Are they the ones that were reversed, ie: the old type where the curved runners were on the 'lamp' side, as compared to the current style where the runners are on the 'lens' side? If so, yes, but we never used the 'old' style. Someone told me they weren't as steady. I took a picture of them years ago, but I doubt I could find it now.

Neither #158 or #159 are in service, having been 'parted' out a few years ago, but they could be returned to working order. They were rebuilt by Century in 1982, who I guess were still were having labor problems, since they did a rather poor job. In 1982, they apparently were just in the process of changing the paint colors for their projectors. I was able to talk someone there into painting them the original gray/brown (not sure exactly what that color was) texture paint. When Century looked up the original PO from the serial numbers, we found they had been purchased by a company in New York state we had never heard of... so how they came to live their entire life in Stamford, CT is still a mystery to me.

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 08-09-2006, 12:01 PM:

It has been 655 days since the last post.