Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Comments, please, on "Klipsch" speakers

This is topic Comments, please, on "Klipsch" speakers in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Paul H. Rayton (Member # 1817) on 10-20-2004, 08:09 PM:

My employment organization is in the process of rebuilding a 1939-era cinema, making it into a more "up-to-date" movie venue. We are in Los Angeles and will likely be doing fairly critical screenings for industry types out here...
Someone has suggested we use Klipsch speakers, instead of the more "usual" JBLs or E-Vs. Have any of you any comments/observations/insights on these for cinema sound installations? I know they have some that are THX approved, but most industry people I've met seem more familiar with the JBL and EV lines. Your opinions...?

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 10-20-2004, 09:00 PM:

One of the newer theatres down here was hyping their "custom designed" Klipsch sound systems. I went for a listen and was not particularly impressed. They seemed to be a bit muddy to me. I observed 5 different auditoriums at this theatre, and each one dissapointed me sonicly. The JBLs found in many theatres seem to be more clear and dynamic.

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 10-20-2004, 09:10 PM:

Hi Paul!

There was quite a bit of discussion a few years ago about a professional theater speaker system which uses a folded exponential horn design like ala Klipsch. This subject sure seemed to stir up some emotions though! [Roll Eyes]

Posts discussing that system are presently blocked on this site. IIRC at least one house at the old Plitt Century City used that system. The threads:

http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004683
http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000624

A search of this forum for "Klipsch" produces a couple of other threads were the name is mentioned, but the two threads above are the main ones. They do make for some entertaining reading. [Wink]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-20-2004, 09:48 PM:

Well let's see [puke]

I have never heard a truly good sounding auditorium equipped with Klipsch speakers. I have had to deal with 3 different makes of them at 3 different theaters now, plus I also dealt with the Klipsch-like system that destroyed the sound quality in Northpark Cinema II. There is NO true low end, and for those who think there is due to the sheer boominess, look at it on an RTA and you will see. It's sort of like Bose speakers. Plus there is always a nasty peak at around 125k and 4k. If I could put more puke smileys in one post, I would.

If you only want to play music, I suppose they do ok. I have heard some decent sounding Klipsch speakers in mega high end home audio stores that did the job pretty well. However for MOVIES with DIALOGUE? Oh hell no!

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-20-2004, 10:39 PM:

The direct radiator Klipsh are not too bad and they have a very shallow CD horn with them but still not my choice

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 10-20-2004, 10:57 PM:

I got to deal with a 6-plex that had Klipsch surrounds. They sounded shallow and I was never satisfied with them.

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 10-20-2004, 11:24 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
I also dealt with the Klipsch-like system that destroyed the sound quality in Northpark Cinema II

Klipsh speakers use a simular design to that of The System Which Must Not Be Named sold by The Man With The Scary Eyes?

Hmm now that I think about it, when I went to listen to a theatre with 4000-whateveraletterstheyare, my findings were similar - Muddy, boomy, lack of clairity at most frequencies, distractingly overbearing clairity at a few frequencies.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-21-2004, 12:32 AM:

You're supposed to say klipsch with a lisp so it somes out Klipsssssssssssh..... [Big Grin]

I've delt with installing quite a few of the mid thousands numbered systems but it was a number of years back. My impressions always were that they have a muddy/boomy bottom end with poor low frequency extension... which is true because of the physical limitations of the huge folded horn cabinet itself are about 50 to 60hz, a distracting midrange in just some circumstances that sounded like the dialog was comming out of a horn yet some films sounded just fine, and a lack of extended high frequencies.... none of the tinkley little sounds, harmonics and real nuances made it through.

I'll never forget a trip I went on to Hollywood back in the 80's to pull a booth out for the employer that was using these systems.... I snuck over to the Chineese #2(gone now) and saw Willow in 70mm on a top notch direct radiator system.... still don't know exactly what the system was in the #2 theatre but the sound was glorious... The expereince was as though I was being slapped in the face and someone saying hey Bud... this is how a movie theatre is supposed to sound. I soon left those horney loaded mid thousands numbered speakers behind for good and have never gone back. One tip about those Horney loaded speakers is that they sound ALOT better if they are set up with a THX R-2 analyzer... a night and day difference literally! They are almost acceptable then.......

P.S. Be careful..... some perveyers of these and like speakers will make you think that they are capable of defying the laws of physics...... "The man with the Evil Eyes".....? Thats hilarious!

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Rich Ferrando (Member # 2056) on 10-21-2004, 01:05 AM:

How are Klipsch subs?

Our smallest house has only 14" clearance from wall-to-screen, and doesn't yet have a sub, and the company engineer tells me that the only sub we can get that's small enough to fit back there is a Klipsch (don't remember the model number.) This is a house with EV surrounds and nameless (literally, I can't find any labels on them) woodgrain-panelled beige screen speakers (that, surprisingly, have incredible bass response.)

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-21-2004, 02:14 AM:

You would be better off buying a single 15" JBL low frequency cabinet designed to be used as a stage speaker. Seriously, those Klipsch subs bottom out if you look at them wrong.

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 10-21-2004, 10:24 AM:

I know of a local 10 plex that has these Klipsch speakers and they just don't sound good to me.

Posted by Paul H. Rayton (Member # 1817) on 10-21-2004, 05:07 PM:

Thanks for the comments, you all! Whenever I read advertising and publicity information, I'm always a bit skeptical. And the fact of sound devices being "THX certified" doesn't quite mean the same thing it did when they started doing that, back in the '80s! If we wanted to make the place really "hip", we could perhaps search out Fender equipment, but I think based on the comments here we'll probably stay on the JBL or E-V route.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 10-21-2004, 05:19 PM:

Paul

Are they trying to redo the Vogue Theatre?

Posted by Mark Hathaway (Member # 1044) on 10-22-2004, 08:04 AM:

Howdy guys,

Over here in Australia we use Klipsch everywhere, okay we are the Klipsch Cinema dealers, but all things aside I have a completely different opinion of the Klipsch cinema range then has been put forward in this thread so far. I find them the easiest to EQ and really love the sound.

There are so many different variables when setting up the B chain in a cinema that it can be challenging to judge sound between different brands in different auditoriums, it can be hard just to maintain consistency though a 10 plex with just one person performing alignments. No doubt the technician's techniques and preferred sound play a large role in the final results.

We install Klipsh in almost all of our new installations apart from the odd few with Krix in the past. I also spend a large part of my time on the road performing routine servicing, and so get to spend a lot of time with EV and JBL as well.

When the right speaker package has been selected for the auditorium, everything is right behind the screen, batting on back wall, the speaker is as close to the screen as possible without touching and the eq is right, (okay, some are going to try and say we don't need to eq at all, but I ask, anechoic performance is maintained behind a perforated screen?)and a half decent cable has been used between amp and speaker, (oh and of course a QSC DCA amp has been used, call me biased, but you cannot find anything better!!) it all comes together and sounds great.

I find the Klipsch/QSC combinations to subjectively achieve the cleanest sound, while I’ve not dragged my own personal Bruel and Kjaer mics into a Klipsch/QSC auditorium, I believe one would find measured basic harmonic distortion at real power levels in a real auditorium to be lower then any competitors at similar spec/price point.

I must say one of the most disappointing combinations I have heard was the JBL 5674 three way and a small mountain of 4642a’s in an 600 seater driven by Crest, and my favorite was with klipch kpt-904’s and two kpt-684’s in a 400 seater driven by QSC DCA’s. I could even watch a movie in their 904/684 auditorium, I’d even pay to see something there, and that’s saying something.

Regards,
Mark Hathaway
Senior Technician
Atlab Image and Sound Technology
Melbounre, Australia

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-22-2004, 01:42 PM:

Mark,
I'd have to say that who ever installed the 5674 system over there did not design it correctly. Crest amps are also not very well liked for cinema use either... they are ok but not great performers.

All of the 5674 and the smaller(they're actually not very small!)5672 systems I've been assiciated with have been the most sucessful and best sounding systems out of all the installations over the years that I've been assosiated with and have done, and I've done a fair number of them.

All of the 5600 based systems I've designed have been installed in baffle walls and they're really meant to be done that way. Someone spending the amount of cash that these speakers cost is usually interested in doing the job the right way and you won't find them sitting on a shelf behind a screen. My experience with Klipsch products only extends through the horn loaded MWM based 3 and 4 way systems and the smaller TSCM and LaScalla based systems, and although they are all adaquate performers they are highly overpriced for the resulting sound quality. Even the 4 way MWM based systems have no where near the sound reproduction ability that the 5600 JBL systems are capable of if designed properly. Heck, even an experienced engineer like yourself is certainly intellegent enough to know that..... hopefully you have an "open mind" when it comes to cinema sound systems... hopefully not a one track Klipsch only mind. If you are the latter then you my friend are really missing out on the good stuff, and the fun of using it.

Interestingly JBL and Harmon have the most sophisticated acoustical labs in the world and generally set the standards that others have to attempt to equal or surpass. Companies such as EAW, Altec, E-V, and Klipsch try to keep pace with them but usually fail or barely come close.....

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Mark Hathaway (Member # 1044) on 10-22-2004, 08:12 PM:

Howdy Mark,

of course all of this is personal opinion, if we all liked the same things life would be boring. The 5674 Auditorium was designed by Acoustisearch (baffle walls and all)and had the full THX approval, Stuart Bowling did the EQ himself. So it has all been designed and constructed as it should be.

I hold no loyalty to a brand for any other reason then performance. I used to build and maintain sound systems for dance parties (4000 plus people in a shed on the docks)and had plenty of experience with JBL, as the company I worked for used JBL exclusively. Personally I think JBL is designed by committee, all the gear in the world thanks to Harmon, and bland results at the end.

After a pile of sub driver failures running at or less their long term AES ratings, managed to talk the powers that be into using RCF l18p300's. A lot more extreme then your average cinema use (30 18" subs in a warehouse) but enough experience for me to form an opinion.

Mark

Posted by Paul H. Rayton (Member # 1817) on 10-22-2004, 09:39 PM:

(Reply to Bill Gabel's earlier question): No, not the Vogue. The Vogue did operate last summer as a pseudo-rock nightclub, sponsored by "Mountain Dew" and still has signage up for MDN ["Mountain Dew Network"]. I guess their stuff was televised, somewhere. Haven't seen any activity now for several months. Did not get inside during the recent use, can't tell you much except that the old film stuff was REALLY decrepit, and very well may be all gone by now.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-22-2004, 09:58 PM:

Sounds like Mark H has been smoking some of that I-30 stuff. Either that or speakers reproduce far differently down under.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-22-2004, 10:16 PM:

quote: Mark H.
of course all of this is personal opinion

Well, I would hope that no manufacturers specs are based on anyones personal opinion although for some small manufacturers that certainly may be a possibility. And certainly not on my personal opinion as I let my customers and their ticket sales speak for them selves. But I have recomended the systems to customers based on their past sucess. All the 5600 systems I've done are the preferred systems in a given location.... Were they not sucessful monetarily for our customers I'd be installing something else.

Yes, Its probable that the system down under was improperly handled at some point. The Crest amps are a good starting point. Who did it and who tuned it doesn't matter much... something went wrong some place, thats for sure!

I agree. Not all THX systems are created alike. I abandoned THX many years back. Its a highly unnecessary expense and totally unnecessary for the creation of a great sound system. The 10 grand can certainly be spent on other things FOR the sound system. In some cases it will pay for the baffle wall itself.

The R-2 analyzer is the only thing to come from THX that I swear by. Others that own them pretty much feel the same way....

Brad, They don't have I-30 down under... Its got to be those Wallabies that are driving him nuts.....

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-23-2004, 01:25 PM:

In Mark H's defense all the Klipsh models he mentioned are direct radiator designs not the older we can't talk about man with evil grin designs [Smile]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-23-2004, 06:09 PM:

Yes,I realized that too. I stated that in my first reply to him. I'm also open to trying them out at the right time and place but I just don't expect as great a result as I get from JBL.....so just call me a skeptic for now if you want. If I get better results than using and equivelent JBL then all the better. What reallt got me fired up was that he clained lower harmonic distortion than using JBL and I seriously doubt that because JBL has too many patents on things such as cine materials, phasing plugs for HF drivers, etc that no one else can use. I've always seen E-V, klipsch, and other companies that make direct radistors more as "me too" companies.
In all fairness to "the man with the evil grin"... he too has new designs.....

Mark

Posted by Ed Alvarado (Member # 2760) on 10-25-2004, 07:42 PM:

well i agree with every one on the kplicsh speakers or how ever you spell them they do blow i have them in my theatre and it sounds muddy