quote:

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6.2 Motor cue
The motor cue shall consist of black circles or clear
circles, printed from a negative which has had four
consecutive frames marked as shown in figures 6, 7,
and 8 for 16-mm, 35-mm, and 70-mm films, respectively.
The position and dimensions of this mark shall
be as given in table 1. Following the four frames
containing the motor cue, there shall be 172 frames
to the beginning of the changeover cue.
6.3 Changeover cue
The changeover cue shall consist of four frames
containing circles of the same dimensions and position
on the frame as those in the motor cue. Following
the four frames of the changeover cue, there shall be
18 frames to the beginning of the runout section of the
trailer.

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quote:

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cigarette burns

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I've seen some bad cues in my time, but none that bad!
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-02-2004, 11:55 AM:
 
I hope they don't do this, because then it's going to be some new stupid thing people will start doing, and not all title logos will happen to be a circle. (Imagine "bat wings" for the next batman movie.) As time passes, they will get bigger and bigger, more colorful and more obnoxious. It will be sort of like watching tv with the stupid channel "bug" in the corner.

Whoever does this first needs to be brutally beaten in the head.
 

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Posted by Ted Costas (Member # 473) on 11-02-2004, 12:52 PM:
 
Brad,

Start the beating. Yes, I'll confirm it. It is a very subtle version of "The Incredibles" logo (the circle with the "i" in the center). When I say subtle, I mean it is, in my opinion, less distracting than traditional change-over cues. But you all will be the judge of that...

Speaking of "The Incredibles," did anybody see the front page story in The Hollywood Reporter on Wednesday, October 27th? It talks about a special projectionist contest that Disney and Pixar are putting on. It's pretty cool. The objective is to reward those projectionists that care... I expect to see many winners from this group!

Good Luck.

Yours, Ted
Dolby, Dolby, Dolby.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-02-2004, 01:16 PM:
 
Is that what it's supposed to be? I thought it was just unusually faint. I just looked at it again on the bench and indeed it's very thin circle, not complete all the way around, and sort of an "i" in the middle. I didn't notice it being animated while screening but as this is digitally inserted and not the result of scribing all 4 dots should be all the same but they're not so there must've been some variation over the 1/6 second. They are properly near the edge (not like those stupid cues so far in so as to accomodate bozos cropping Scope to 1.85).
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-02-2004, 01:20 PM:
 
"Film Done Right" contest sponsored by Pixar, Disney and Dolby:

http://www.thehollywoodreporter.com/thr/film/brief_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000685200

quote:

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Oct. 27, 2004

Pixar spotlight on projection

ORLANDO -- Projectionists at movie theaters nationwide are in for an incredible surprise. For the upcoming animated feature "The Incredibles," Pixar Animation Studios, Walt Disney's Buena Vista Distribution and Dolby Production Services have organized an opening weekend contest to honor the best cinema presentations in the United States -- and to ensure that the movie is properly presented. "We just realize how important the projectionists are,"Bill Kinder, Pixar's director of editorial and postproduction, said. "They're the last link in the quality-control chain for us. We spend four years in order to make our movies look and sound great. We want to put a spotlight on projectionists and open a direct line of communication with them." Reps from the three companies plan to randomly visit 300 theaters on opening day of "The Incredibles" -- Nov. 5 -- in search of the perfect theatrical presentation. The grand prize winner, for the best presentation, will win a two-day round trip to San Francisco, a tour of Pixar and hotel accommodations for up to four people. (Sheigh Crabtree)

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quote:

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Reps from the three companies plan to randomly visit 300 theaters on opening day of "The Incredibles" -- Nov. 5 -- in search of the perfect theatrical presentation.

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You know, I have less and less respect for the studios every day. MORONS! They need to wait at least a couple of months and THEN go do their random check. 99% or better will have a nice clean and scratch-free print on opening day. DUH!!!!! Could this possibly be any more stupid?

And mark my words today, this changeover / bug thing has officially started and will become an amazing annoyance to film presentations within 3 years. Anyone want to join me in the beating squad?
 

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Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 11-02-2004, 07:42 PM:
 
It's time the staid world of Cue Marks was shaken up!

Also, they only need to go in on the second day to see any deterioration

But hats off to them for acknowledging the vital role of the Projectionist.

Incidentally :

quote: Steve Kraus

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(not like those stupid cues so far in so as to accomodate bozos cropping Scope to 1.85)

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I'm not an expert here, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the current SMPTE Standard seems to unify cue mark placement vis-a-vis 35mm 'Scope and Flat ratios, so that this should not be happening anymore. Are all the labs aware of the current Standard?
 

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Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 11-03-2004, 12:28 AM:
 
Nobody in this area needs to start packing.
 

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Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 11-03-2004, 12:51 AM:
 
Same here. I will bet that 90% of the screens here will have dirty, scratched, out of focus, out of frame presentations on opening day.
 

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Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 11-03-2004, 10:00 AM:
 
Good presentation lasts the test of time. Enough said.

Thanks for teh concept Pixar, but listen to what's being said in the industry, by the operators, and you'll see where your true showmanship comes from.

I'm with you Brad... next thing you know, they'll be ads in the chnageover indictors...

This idea gets two and a big from me!
 

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Posted by Greg Davis (Member # 2687) on 11-03-2004, 11:13 AM:
 
What would be the point? they are fine as they are. Making them more noticeable would be worse for viewers, and less noticeable would be worse on reel changing projectors. I dunno. I learned not to trust IMDB after they said that "On The Road" was going to be in 2004 .
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 11-03-2004, 04:37 PM:
 
It seems to me that the idea is to be "cute" and provide an "easter egg" to those "in the know" about cue dots. As long as they are not more visible than standard punched lab cues, it seems a fine idea to me.

BVPD/Pixar seem trying to appeal to projectionists in a big way with Incredibles, and this seems like just another part of that.

Again, if it makes you smile, and doesn't hurt anything, it is a good thing .

Vaguely reminiscent of the Star Wars Special Edition cue dots with the starburst shape.

--jhawk
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-03-2004, 06:44 PM:
 
Those Star Wars dots were very annoying.

If Pixar really wanted to be cutsie about something and break SMPTE standards for marking changeovers, why not make the reel changes such that every time the main character burps, you start the motor and then have him fart 24 frames before the end of the reel? That I could go for.
 

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Posted by Jon Miller (Member # 163) on 11-03-2004, 07:03 PM:
 
...And, Brad, that would make running changeovers an absolute gas!

The problem is that it would make it difficult to confirm the cues upon inspection (if, say, a character lets one loose without jerking or flinching) and that would lead to poorly-made homemade cues, a practice which has already been deservedly beaten to death in this forum.

Makes me yearn for good 'ol time-tested cigarette burns...
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 11-03-2004, 07:06 PM:
 

quote: John Hawkinson

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Again, if it makes you smile, and doesn't hurt anything, it is a good thing.

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quote: Brad Miller

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why not make the reel changes such that every time the main character burps, you start the motor and then have him fart 24 frames before the end of the reel? That I could go for.

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That would be just great for booths where you can't hear the booth monitor from both projectors, or from between the projectors while both are running. Great idea.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-03-2004, 07:14 PM:
 
Haha. Oh well guys, at least I got a laugh out of your responses. Anyway, I'm against changeover cues in the first place. Any good changeover operator can do the job without any markings on the film anyway, but obviously after almost a century, the practice won't change for a variety of reasons.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 11-03-2004, 07:18 PM:
 

quote: Brad Miller

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Any good changeover operator can do the job without any markings on the film...

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quote: Daryl C. W. O'Shea

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Any idiot can do automated changeovers.

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No so Mr. Daryl. If you think an idiot can actually put the cues on the proper places, you're nuts.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 11-03-2004, 07:32 PM:
 
I've got a bunch of idiots doing just that every week. Maybe the average idiot up here is a lot smarter than down there.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 11-03-2004, 07:38 PM:
 
Sorry Brad, I'm flying up to Ontario next weekend. Daryl is only going to charge me US$100 to show me.

Screw you and your $1k!

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-03-2004, 08:50 PM:
 
But Phil, it's $100 for the training, and $900 for putting up with you!
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 11-03-2004, 08:52 PM:
 
Phil's going to sleep on Gordon's couch.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-03-2004, 08:56 PM:
 
That would be a great picture, Phil sleeping with Gordon's super fat pussy.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 11-03-2004, 08:57 PM:
 

quote: Grand-Poo-BAH

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But Phil, it's $100 for the training, and $900 for putting up with you!

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quote: Daryl C. W. O'Shea

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You mean the nice one just down the road from the drive-in in St. Catherines

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Yes...that's the one. I need to go to confession at the St. Catherine's Catholic chuch the next morning...

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 11-03-2004, 09:04 PM:
 
I'd rather go do some card counting a little further down the road.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-03-2004, 09:09 PM:
 
Here it is.



 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 11-03-2004, 09:56 PM:
 
Looks like the IB cues from Godzilla.

--jhawk
 

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Posted by Aaron Haney (Member # 747) on 11-03-2004, 10:31 PM:
 
Are the prints all on Kodak Vision Premiere (2393)? In the "feature info" forum, Brad posted a link to this site:

http://projection.pixar.com/

Which has a little box in the upper left listing "film specs", including a specific mention of "kodak vision premiere stock". Are all the prints on 2393, or just some? If all, that makes me very excited. I've seen enough stuff printed on 2393 vs. 2383 to know that the difference is amazing. I am really looking forward to seeing this movie in theaters now.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 11-03-2004, 10:40 PM:
 


This animation from Pixar's site is pretty neat:


 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 11-03-2004, 10:47 PM:
 
Not only that, but somebody deserves a pat on the back for a studio actually putting up the ID frames on the Web. Nice to see Brad's idea getting some play, yay!

I like their description of the c/o cues, "The changeover cue marks are a little different from what you normally see. In keeping with the cool Sixties vibe of the movie, the cues have been designed to look like the films of that era."

Also, it's not clear they violate the SMPTE standard. As long as there is a circle, I think they're in compliance.

--jhawk
 

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Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 11-03-2004, 11:43 PM:
 
Great site.
Check out the video note from Brad Bird!
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-03-2004, 11:55 PM:
 
From Brad Bird:

quote:

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Find a DTS system enclosed with the reels.

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quote: Brad Miller

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Anyway, I'm against changeover cues in the first place. Any good changeover operator can do the job without any markings on the film anyway, but obviously after almost a century, the practice won't change for a variety of reasons.

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In principle, agreed entirely. Most presentation, especially for newly released mainstream features, is now from platters. Any houses which run changeovers should have a decent cue dot scriber (e.g. an Acmade or a Clint Phare) in the box as standard equipment, and the knowledge to apply dots properly and in the right place. As Brad points out there are also several ways to do changeovers without the need for any visible marks at all. The way I was taught to handle archive prints which don't have dots was to place a layer of joining tape across the film where the motor and over cues would be, use the audible 'clicks' as they go through the gate as your cues, and then carefully remove the tape when rewinding and packing off the reel.

The problem is living in the real world, in which 'projectionists' habitually mangle the first and last few feet of each reel when cues aren't printed on from an interneg. If printed cues helps to keep that under control, then I suppose they're the lesser of two evils.
 

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Posted by Jarrod Cocker (Member # 2773) on 11-04-2004, 07:35 AM:
 
Does anyone remember that stupid US only promotion they did with Rugrats go Wild a couple of years back.

It confused the out of us here in AUS, as no one told us there would be these stupid markings throughout the film - I think from memory they where numbers?

We even got a reduced fee from those evil distributors.

Siily US second hand prints.
 

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Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 11-04-2004, 11:40 AM:
 

quote: Leo Enticknap

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'projectionists' habitually mangle the first and last few feet of each reel when cues aren't printed on from an interneg

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What do printed changeover cues have to do with poorly-trained or apathetic operators mishandling film during buildup and breakdown?
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-04-2004, 11:55 AM:
 
It reduces the chances that some idiot will attempt to make his own cues with hole punchers, razor blades, etc. I think I am safe in saying that pretty much everyone hates Cues Done Wrong.

As for the cues on "The Incredibles"--I'll agree with jhawk that it sounds like a fun and harmless idea, as long as they're no more visible than standard lab cues. The day theatrical films start including on-screen "bugs" like most TV shows do now is the day I stop going to movies, however.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 11-04-2004, 01:36 PM:
 
Sorry Adam; as Scott wrote, I was describing the situation in which a print without cue marks arrives at a badly run changeover house and has DIY cues put on it. By the time it's accumulated several sets of DIY cues, the heads and tails are usually a gruesome mess. This phenomenon happens quite frequently with arthouse titles here because French labs don't print cue dots.
 

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Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 11-05-2004, 01:08 AM:
 
Reel #2 on one of our prints (haven't checked the 2nd one yet) had the real changeover dots printed over top of the animated ones.

All the other reels on that print did not.

Strange.

Anyone else see that?
 

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Posted by Ian Joseph Parfrey (Member # 2682) on 11-05-2004, 04:43 AM:
 
Ahhh! Good old Eclair. Did they lose their cue marker or something?

I wonder how the German Geyerkopie prints fit into the SMPTE standards with their square motor cues? I reckon it's a good idea but it's probably a solution to a problem no-one needs.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 11-05-2004, 01:04 PM:
 
I presume Eclair and LTC's thinking is that most of the prints they produce will never be shown on a changeover system at all during their lifetime, so there's no point in putting unnecessary marks on them. Where that thinking falls down is in the presumption that those places which do run changeovers will apply a form of invisible cues or inscribe visible ones properly.
 

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Posted by Ian Joseph Parfrey (Member # 2682) on 11-05-2004, 03:59 PM:
 
I suppose it's one advantage having Cinemeccanicas, clickers sound REAL loud so there is no way you'd miss a c/o.
 

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Posted by David Yauch (Member # 2754) on 11-06-2004, 01:58 AM:
 
One of our incredibles print had still had the good ol' black oval at the beginning and end of one reel, the rest were the i.
 

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Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 11-07-2004, 12:07 PM:
 

quote: Jarrod Cocker

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or cigaret burns, whateva,

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quote: Johnny P.

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there shall be 18 frames to the beginning of the runout section of the trailer.

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quote: Tim Reed

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That's the old standard... it's 24 frames to the runout section.

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quote:

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History
For many years the "Academy Leader" was in general use. In this leader the count-down was based on 16 frames of 1 foot of 35mm film, a holdover from the silent films in which the 16-frame spacing was equated in terms representing feet of film or seconds in running or projection time.

In 1950, the growing use of film in television production made it evident that some changes were highly desirable. An SMPTE Subcommittee under the chairmanship of C. L. Townsend was set up to revise the Academy Leader to fulfill the new requirements. This subcommittee, in cooperation with producers, laboratories, projectionists and broadcasters, developed a new All-Purpose Leader, commonly called the Society Leader; it was accepted for trial and has since served the industry. That Subcommittee considered 24-frame spacing for threading cues; but the change in spacing was dropped to avoid confusion.

Since 1951, private and commercial use of 16mm and the use of 35mm and 16mm film by television broadcasters has increased rapidly. In 1958, the requirement for 24-frame, 1-second, spacing of threading cues, to fit in with projection and TV cuing practices, was again brought to the attention of officers of the SMPTE and was passed by them to the Television Committee Chairman, W. T. Wintringham, for action.

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Although it was not to become part of the leader, in order to standardize on the seconds basis, the spacing of the motor and changeover cues has been reduced from the present 172 frames to 168 frames or 7-sec running time. The Subcommittee had hoped to reduce the changeover cue to 5 sec but yielded to pleas for more time to permit older machines to reach stable operating speeds.

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