Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Hellboy reel 5 tail

This is topic Hellboy reel 5 tail - 45 seconds of black? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Andrew Shingleton (Member # 2257) on 11-04-2004, 07:34 AM:

One of our projectionists stumbled accross this interesting comment in the trivia section on www.imdb.com for Hellboy. The page is here, and below is the relevent quote:

quote:
A deliberate 45 second stretch of a black screen without sound was included after a battle sequence by director Guillermo del Toro. However, the sequence came at the end of the fifth reel, and many projectionists cut the sequence off, believing it to be leader film. This results in an abrupt continuity error in the story, that was commented on in many critics reviews.

I'm pretty sure that we didn't pick this up, and I'm also guessing that not many other people did either. The reel ID section of this site has no mention of it, and the tail of 5 clearly has an image on it. I'm of the opinion that if the 45sec of black film was intentional, then this should have been pointed out to the projectionists by way of a note with the print. Without a note I don't think any projectionist has done anything wrong, and the director only has himself to blame. That is of course, if this is even true.
Has anyone heard anything about this?

Posted by Jarrod Cocker (Member # 2773) on 11-04-2004, 08:40 AM:

Yes. This is all true.

We got a memo in the box with our print. So we didn't screw it up... I'll see if i can find a copy of the memo tmra night

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 11-04-2004, 10:33 AM:

There was no memo with the print I built up, straight from the depot.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 11-04-2004, 11:02 AM:

Can you have 45 seconds down without people heading for the lobby? In itself, that would seem to break continuity. I bet I'd have horns & headlights going at the drive-in within 15 seconds or so.

Posted by Chase Hanson (Member # 2779) on 11-04-2004, 11:52 AM:

For those of you who had to handle Kill Bill 2, pretty much everyone of those 3-5 second fade to black at the reel change over generated complaints. In RE2 the super short all white sequence in the last reel, that generated complaints.

45 seconds of all black...Management would have passed the whole theater.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-04-2004, 12:57 PM:

Wasn't there sound? If you see a reel ending in black with no obvious endpoint (negative splice or an LFOA mark) wouldn't you think that would set folks to wondering enough to start hunting down the cue marks so they can cut it correctly? I agree that the reels should have been balanced in a way that didn't put this at the end or beginning of a reel but disagree with any notion that it should never be done at all if appropriate to the plot. The old Mary Tyler Moore show once had the better part of an episode blacked out due to a power failure in the storyline. Johnny Carson stopped by Mary's party but you only heard his voice.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-04-2004, 02:29 PM:

wouldn't the changeover cues have been in that black section anyway if it was on the tail of the reel to show it was intended as part of the print

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 11-04-2004, 04:33 PM:

Most operators don't normally check for cue marks unless there is an obvious fade out. Looking at the reel ID section even Brad screwed up.

Posted by Lindsay Morris (Member # 1430) on 11-04-2004, 05:49 PM:

The same thing translated thru to the 16mm release which made me wonder when I ran it thru after spooling it and cueing it for 16mm release in Western Australia.

On the 16mm print the black bit is in the middle of the spool as 2 of 35mm reels = 1 of 16mm reel.

End of reel 6 was almost similar where I could not really work out just where the image area ended and could not match up the soundtracks either.
As I wanted to put 7 onto the tail of 6 rather than onto another spool I hunted about for where it logically would be.
Did the cuts and splicing and when run thru copped the black 45 sec or so bit in the middle of reel 3 (5 & 6 to 35mm users)... did a bit of quick look to make sure I had not blown a lamp and back came the image.
Marked it to have a "looky" on rewind and continued. The end of the 35mm reel 6 went thru OK but when 7 came on the sound track jumped BACK about 3 or 4 secs.
Stopped and rewound a bit and ran it again and sure enuff the sound jumped back. [Eek!]

So then I just went cut cut cut and trying it in between until the sound continued OK and the credits looked OK and left it at that.
Dunno what happened in the lab there but maybe they just mucked up the sync of reel 7 a bit as they ran the 16mm neg off.

Normally the labs that Sony use do a superb job on 16mm.
Even prints "squished down" from Scope are pin sharp even when pushed to 6m wide screen images.
Nothing wrong with 16mm prints when done well... only the lack of decent sound is a killer but the use of a stereo simulator does wonders with the new prints available now. [thumbsup]

Lindsay

Posted by Andrew Shingleton (Member # 2257) on 11-04-2004, 06:45 PM:

I'm trying to think back but it's hard to remember. I have a feeling that it may have been a cut to black rather than a fade out, which if that was the case would make it look exactly like the end of a reel. I can't even remember if I was the one who made up our copy, or if it was someone else. I don't recall seeing any excessivly long leaders though. Since our prints are recycled from overseas, I guess there's even a chance that this 45 seconds was missing before we even got the print.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-04-2004, 06:47 PM:

No it was intentional Dustin. The idea of the Reel ID is to show the last visible images on the reel. If more than one reel ended in a blackout, or if there were fades anywhere else in the movie, showing some ID frames of black would be useless now wouldn't it?

I did however edit the notes to point out the extra black.

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 11-04-2004, 08:10 PM:

Apologies Brad, though making a note of it in the future, even for fade outs, would be a good idea.

Question: how many platter operators actually look for changeover cues when cutting leaders-other than when the reel end isn't 'obvious' that is?

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-04-2004, 08:44 PM:

Not enough apparently, judging from all the cut off fades.

What else is there? I suppose you can grab a reel that ends conventionally and look for something in the leader like a finish or foot frame and measure back to the last frame then measure back the same distance on the questionable reel.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-04-2004, 08:45 PM:

I think I will start doing that Dustin.

Steve, I don't know about most operators, but if the print comes from Technicolor or Deluxe labs, they have very standardized head and tail leaders. It's very easy to know if something is amiss.

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 11-05-2004, 03:08 AM:

quote: Dustin Mitchell
Question: how many platter operators actually look for changeover cues when cutting leaders-other than when the reel end isn't 'obvious' that is?

i've gotten into the habit of checking even at least one "obvious" reel to verify the number of frames after the last cue, since there are different standards for this. sometimes it does vary between different reels of the same print, though.

carl

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-08-2004, 11:30 AM:

45 seconds of black with no sound and they cut that at the end of a reel? Pretty much shows that some editors have never been in a projection booth. It would be a little less of a problem in C/O operation as the cues are in the right place, but as pointed out, when building up prints, cue marks not usually used as any reference.

The networks always send timing out to the affiliates for the evenings shows, indicating where commericals will happen. I recall seeing a note indicating the exact time where there would be black and no sound in an episode of Little House on the Prarie. It only makes sense to let the people down the line know what's going on so they don't panic and throw up a "Please Stand-By" card.

There is a section in the movie HEAD where it looks like the film actually burns. It is totally effective and really does look like a frame caught in the gate, bubbles and burns. We never got the note that supposedly was sent around first run. And OF COURSE I slammed down the dowser. To bad. For something like that they should have printed it right into the head leader. SIMULATED BURN - DO NOT CLOSE DOWSER.

For a director not to communicating the fact that something as odd as 45 seconds of black with no sound is going to happen AT THE END OF A REEL, well, he deserves what he gets.

Posted by Alexander Smith (Member # 1769) on 11-08-2004, 01:23 PM:

Here in the UK we only received print number USA157 which
was (poorly) cleaned-up, and pre-scratched in places.

Also, it had been plattered before, and the foot of R5 was
pre-cut for us. Therefore we had no chance of preserving
the director's intention.

Alex.

Posted by Andrew Shingleton (Member # 2257) on 11-08-2004, 02:49 PM:

I'm thinking we must have had a similar situation with a used print. 45 seconds (ie: 67.5 feet) is a lot of extra "leader" to go unnoticed, and I'm sure some alarm bells would have gone off.

I remember reading somewhere on film-tech not too long ago (no idea which thread) that when prints are recycled for use overseas any reference frames are cut off and the leader is simply spliced back on. I wonder how many prints which were shipped overseas for international release actually even arrived with this 45 seconds, let alone actually made it to screen!