Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Meet The Fockers Bad DTS Timecode (and diodes)

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Posted by Michael Elam (Member # 788) on 11-14-2004, 11:41 AM:

Out of a 19 screen complex 10 screens that are running "Meet the
Fockers" trlr has bad timecode causing the sound to drop out.
Anyone else with this problem? Analog is ok. [Eek!]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-14-2004, 12:16 PM:

Have you checked the 4 volt setting in the tc readers lately? If it falls below about 3.2 volts DC is won't read tc reliably. Some prints will read ok and some will not read at all or all the time.
With no film threaded and your dc meter on tp-1 and 2 set the reading for 4 volts using the small white pot.
When unplugging and plugging your readers plug to remove the cover be sure to shut the DTS off. Once y0u're set to tke the reading let it boot back up, then set the dc level.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Wolff King Morrow (Member # 2226) on 11-14-2004, 01:02 PM:

Well it must be nice to have a DC meter to do that. I'd like to test that out myself as lately we've been having a lot of bad TC reading on a movie every now and then. I've made sure the DTS readers are clean, but it hasn't helped.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-14-2004, 01:20 PM:

I guess I have always felt that if someone wants to work in a booth then a minimal personal toolbox investment is needed a set of interchangeable drivers and a meter are part of the basics

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 11-14-2004, 01:59 PM:

If you are a self employed tech then yes, of course. However, one should NOT be buying tools out of their own pocket to use at work. A very bad practice in my opinion.

Some will criticize their accuracy (and for certain things it likely is an issue) but for what you are doing a $30-$40 Craftsman multi-meter should suffice. If your theatre won't spring for that then they don't deserve to be in business.

Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 11-14-2004, 02:33 PM:

How could you not have a multi-meter in your booth. What if you have a diode go out. Are you just going to replace all six each time. Doing that once will pay for a cheap multimeter to get you by.

Posted by Wolff King Morrow (Member # 2226) on 11-14-2004, 02:44 PM:

Bleh, nevermind about my rant.

I guess I'll have to spring for a multi meter if I want to take care of this myself...

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 11-14-2004, 03:25 PM:

Tools are tax deductible (in the USA). But that's only useful if you can itemize deductions.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 11-14-2004, 03:52 PM:

How about you print out the instructions, show that to your management so they can see it is easy and not dangerous, and ask them if they would like you to take care of that. The cost for the multimeter is considerably less than for just one service call. If they don't want to do that, forget it. If they do, then maybe your company technician can show you other things to do with it (in addition to reading up on stuff and following tips here). Then you can build your knowledge and skills step by step, and when you are at a point where it can be seen, you can ask for more money.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-14-2004, 03:55 PM:

Not to steer too far off topic, but isn't it recommended to change all the diodes when one goes out? I know a lot of people only change the one that goes out becase it is easier and much cheaper.

Posted by Wolff King Morrow (Member # 2226) on 11-14-2004, 05:22 PM:

quote: Michael Schaffer
If they do, then maybe your company technician can show you other things to do with it (in addition to reading up on stuff and following tips here). Then you can build your knowledge and skills step by step, and when you are at a point where it can be seen, you can ask for more money.

Problem is the company technician is on the road a lot and doesn't have time to train me on such things at the moment. What I want to do next summer is see if I can actually train with him as an assistant. I've gone about as far as I can go with the tools and equipment I have access to at work, so I want to start following the technician around for some REAL training. Eventually I'd like to do booth inspections for the company, where I would check on key areas often neglected or missed by the usual booth personel. For example, I found out recently from an inspection of my booth that I was one of the only places to have actually kept up with oil changes and clean window ports. This is pretty standard stuff, so I got to thinking it would be interesting to go around the district and see what the other personel are missing and/or improving on.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-14-2004, 06:27 PM:

quote: Gordon McLeod
I guess I have always felt that if someone wants to work in a booth then a minimal personal toolbox investment is needed a set of interchangeable drivers and a meter are part of the basics

I agree completely with Gord. If you are in charge of a booth then you should do what it takes to be sure that a good show is put on every screen in the complex...... man thats your primary job!! If it takes a small took kit to acomplish that endeavor then so be it. The way it looks here is that you are just another one to whine and cry and then do nothing... when you should really be doing something about the problem instead. If the readers are out of adjustment then adjust them, if the prints are bad then get replacements if possible.... or shut the players off and run analog........ If you can't do that much then shut the dam theatre down and go cry in some other industry.

quote: Joe Redifer
Not to steer too far off topic, but isn't it recommended to change all the diodes when one goes out? I know a lot of people only change the one that goes out because it is easier and much cheaper.

Actually NOT changing then all out at once will cost a heck of a lot more in emergency service calls by your tech. Diodes undergo enormous thermal stress over repeated heating and cooling cycles and frequently will mechanically break down and fail. Installing a full set is cheaper than some of the milage charges our customers incur!! Be sure the fans are running properly and blowers that can be lubricated should so be.

Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 11-14-2004, 06:30 PM:

Joe brings up a very good point. I've replaced two diode stacks, but never a single diode in a stack.

BTW, the + and - markings on the diode stacks really do mean something... [Eek!]

Thankfully, no damage aside from frying another diode stack. A definite lesson learned.... and I'd still swear that there were NO markings on the stack I installed...

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-14-2004, 06:39 PM:

I am suprised you didn't blow up the filter caps puting it in backwards

I rarely find there is much advantage in changeing out the entire stack unless the customer wants it I usually only replace the bad diode and rarely have another problem with the rectifier for a year or longer
If they show signs of heating or I determin there was a High Voltage issue then the all get changed

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 11-14-2004, 06:59 PM:

It's not only meet the fockers that has some issues with timecode. Same problems occured on Bridget Jones 2. Increasing the Voltage can help this issue. I don't know what it is but universal product seems to be the most troublesome with time code issues in their trailers especially on older readers.

Michael Elam, I sent you a private message so check your profile.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-14-2004, 07:37 PM:

I can understand the poor guys here working with CFS lamphouses (and the Strong Highlight II), but what about the rest of you? It's been YEARS since I've last had a diode open on a Christie, and in fact I can only recall one failure on them...ever.

Posted by Wolff King Morrow (Member # 2226) on 11-14-2004, 07:44 PM:

Quote from Mark:
The way it looks here is that you are just another one to whine and cry and then do nothing... when you should really be doing something about the problem instead. If the readers are out of adjustment then adjust them, if the prints are bad then get replacements if possible.... or shut the players off and run analog........ If you can't do that much then shut the dam theatre down and go cry in some other industry.

That's one hell of a mean thing to say to a rookie. If I didn't care, I wouldn't have been asking about it. I came here to learn what I am missing as I'm still on my first year of doing this. If this is the attitude you take, it's both elitist and downright being an asshole.

"If the readers are out of adjustment, adjust them..."

First, that assumes you have the training to do it. Second, what's with the sticker on it that reads "Factory adjusted. Do NOT adjust!" ? Am I suppose to not ask these questions for fear of being put down by an expert like you?

Honestly I don't understand where you're coming from. Are you a multi-year veteran of the industry? If so, why in the world would you put a newbie down for wanting to know this stuff? Excuse the hell out of me for even caring enough to investigate these things on my own time. My mistake.

This is not the way you encourage someone to improve and learn.

Anyway, I've found a very nice Craftsman multi-meter for $100. It's not their top of the line model, but should be of decent quality for the job. I'll buy it next payday. My apologies to Mark for "whining" [fu]

(Edit)

Almost forgot:

or shut the players off and run analog

I'm not THAT stupid as to have not done that. I'm talking about learning to solve the problem, not avoid it.

Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 11-14-2004, 07:53 PM:

When I worked in a booth I had a Christie diode bank ready to go, swapped it out when I had a problem, then tested for the dead one later. Then took the "good" ones out and saved them, yet ordered another set of new ones for my diode bank. I don't want to give you the impression they went out "often", but maybe an average of every 2 years in a 10plex over 18 years.

To be honest, I have never gotten a solid answer here about whether to change them all, change the one that is bad, or change both on the phase where one went bad. Like Gordon, I look for heat damage and also consult the customer if I feel like they'll lean one way or another. It does make a difference how far away the place is too, just balancing risk and cost.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-14-2004, 09:13 PM:

We are running a Christie 2000W lamphouse here. I would say we have to change a diode about once every 2 years. I have never changed more than one at a time.

Wolff, you can probably find a nice multimeter for a lot less than $100 if you shop around. Check at an auto parts store.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-14-2004, 10:09 PM:

Wolf,
That paragraph was not aimed directly at you but at booth managers in general. Please read it again and I think you'll see that. I run across so many poss poor booth managers around this area that sometimes it makes me rant a bit......

BTW: This is a decent meter for not alot of money..... what ever you get be sure it has the diode test scale on it and an audible continuity test position.
http://shop3.outpost.com/product/456499

Mike B.,
Weren't we going to install a fan under your heat sinks or did we already do that... or was there already one there?

Mark

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 11-15-2004, 01:46 AM:

Its perfectly fine to talk about buying one $20-$50 tool here and there but all this adds up. How much do you expect someone to go out of pocket for tools that SHOULD BE PROVIDED BY THE THEATRE?

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 11-15-2004, 02:43 AM:

A voltmeter is an extremely useful tool to own personally, independant of whether your theatre owns one. So if you don't own one yourself, consider it.

In the El Cheapo department, there's Harbor Freight's CEN-TECH 33499, for only $10 (they also sell a couple of other $10 CEN-TECHs with slightly different feature sets). Sure it's missing tons of features, but if you just need DC volts, there's really no excuse not to. Radio Shack also sells some pocket multimeters (or used to), for a few more bucks.

--jhawk

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-15-2004, 03:07 AM:

Thing is, a good multimeter will serve you in more ways than one. I'm currently building our annual Lionel train layout at my day job and if it wasn't for the meter, I'd be in a world'o'hurt. It gets used a lot year round.

Mark: Yes, we were. I hear you're going to be in the area soon?

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 11-15-2004, 07:02 AM:

quote:
In the El Cheapo department, there's Harbor Freight's CEN-TECH 33499, for only $10

In the easily-accessible El Cheapo department, they've got bottom-line multimeters at Wal-Mart in the auto department for less than $10. If you just need continuity, resistance, & coarse basic voltage readings, they're OK.

There should be a thread of "What tools do you own a zillion of cheap ones?"

It seems like I'm always touristing somewhere where somebody's crisis is an electrical broke thing, & have to go over to Wal-Mart to get a meter. Now I have about 8 of the cheapies around.

Measuring tapes proliferate in about the same way. I don't understand how these 60 sets of Allen keys were accumulated, though.

Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 11-15-2004, 11:06 AM:

Mark, yes we did put two fans in the two problem lamphouses, the ones that went out multiple times. It may have helped a little. But I think that was the reason I went to having a diode bank ready, that and the quick change factor.

Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 11-15-2004, 11:50 AM:

I have all Christie packages (Strong platters) and have replaced two diode stacks in 8 years over 16 screens.

The mushroom fans are a pain to get to and they have all been swapped out with higher flowing fans.

Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 11-16-2004, 09:03 AM:

Wolff, you're not that far away. Come down to my place sometime and I can show you how to check these values. I do this about every 6 months.

Paul

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-16-2004, 09:37 AM:

Alot of diode failures depend on how many thermal cycles the semiconductors get.... Leaving the lamps on all the time would cut down on diode failures considerably. It also somewhat depends on the quality of the power in your area. Solid state devices do not like spikes and surges. Installation of a surge protection device on the main panel feed or at each booth sub panel will also make a drastic difference.

FYI: I will not install a Strong Switcher in a booth that is not or cannot be equipped with a surge protection device. We've found that having surge protection plays a major factor in reliability of the switchers.

quote: Brad Miller
It's been YEARS since I've last had a diode open on a Christie, and in fact I can only recall one failure on them...ever.

Brad, You will eventually experience diode failures because Christie uses the epoxy encapsulated IR diodes. Glass encapsulated(passivated) diodes which no cinema manufacturer uses that I am aware of will last far longer, sometimes decades. The epoxy in the IR diodes will eventually disentegrate where the stem passes through and the stem will loosen up causing failure [Eek!]

. Hey, its a good money maker service call...... [thumbsup]

.

Mark @ CLACO