Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: New prints...quality going downhill?

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Posted by Brian Jupp (Member # 2801) on 11-15-2004, 02:37 PM:

We're a first run triplex, so we deal with mostly new prints. The last two prints we opened, I've had to have some reels replaced:

The Incredibles: Reel 1 had vertical scratches 3 or 4 times for about 45 seconds each time (no it wasn't during the "newsreel" scenes). Reel 3 had a faulty DTS Time Code. The DTS Time Code was actually half as wide on this reel as a normal time code.

The Polar Express: Reel 1 had vertical scratches through almost the entire reel, including the attached Racing Stripes trailer.

All these reels were noticed during a run through before opening day, so they were all changed out with replacement reels before the first show.

Has the quality of new prints been going downhill, or would it just be plain bad luck that we received damaged reels in 2 new prints in a row?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-15-2004, 03:35 PM:

When a new reel has unacceptable quality, requesting a replacement reel immediately is the correct procedure. The returned reel can be examined to determine the cause, print number and emulsion batches can be tracked to the equipment/personnel responsible, and the cost of replacing the reel is impetus to fix the problem.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 11-15-2004, 06:47 PM:

When you put the film together do it if possable on a bench with 60 min reels and check the film with good light. You should be able to see any scratches that may be on the film. Do this to verify that there is not a hidden problem causing the scratches that you may not be aware of.

Posted by David Yauch (Member # 2754) on 11-16-2004, 01:46 AM:

Our biggest problem lately has been color bleeding all over the film. We had over a minute of weird blue "smoke" on the screen during a reel of seed of chucky. Not to mention plenty of weird spots showing up on the film throughout 3 of the reels. If the print didn't have enough problems, it decided to break in half and chew up 15 frames during it's first showing, no where near a splice, and I had to run over and fix it because it went unscreened.

Posted by Michael Wilkinson (Member # 2389) on 11-16-2004, 02:11 AM:

Blame Canada!
My print of the Incredibles had, in several places, a wierd pattern of dots which were visible only for one to two frames each time. (I'm not talking about the custom cue marks)
The thing that I see the most is bad color timing. Sometimes from one reel to the next or severe fluctuations mid reel.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-16-2004, 02:53 AM:

Our Incredibles print had one reel on which the last couple of seconds had sparkly-white spots. It looked like dust would on a white surface, but in reverse. (Light spots on the dark background.) Since it was only for a couple of seconds I didn't think it was bad enough to replace the reel but obviously there was some dirt in the printer or something.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-16-2004, 07:19 AM:

quote: David Yauch
Our biggest problem lately has been color bleeding all over the film. We had over a minute of weird blue "smoke" on the screen during a reel of seed of chucky.

Sounds like safelight "fog" where the unprocessed print film was exposed to a safelight that was either too bright, or for too long. What was the magenta edgeprint ID on the film?

quote: Michael Wilkinson
My print of the Incredibles had, in several places, a wierd pattern of dots which were visible only for one to two frames each time. (I'm not talking about the custom cue marks)

Possibly anti-piracy watermark coding?

quote: Mike Blakesley
Our Incredibles print had one reel on which the last couple of seconds had sparkly-white spots.

Likely "Shadow Image" dirt, from dirt particles on the raw stock or printing negative. Being at the end of a reel, I suspect there was some extra handling in making a splice in the printing negative.

Posted by Barry Martin (Member # 1376) on 11-16-2004, 12:35 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
Our Incredibles print had one reel on which the last couple of seconds had sparkly-white spots. It looked like dust would on a white surface, but in reverse. (Light spots on the dark background.) Since it was only for a couple of seconds I didn't think it was bad enough to replace the reel but obviously there was some dirt in the printer or something.

We had the exact same thing. Thought it might have been dirt or abrasion I some how got in there but everything checked out fine on my equipment and when looking at the film there is no scratching/dirt, but you can see the specks. Only at the end of the reels though, so where this happened on multiple copies could it be something with the negative/processing?

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-16-2004, 12:48 PM:

Dust particles on the printing negative (or the raw stock) would block the passage of light and print as white dots.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 11-16-2004, 01:22 PM:

We had the "negative dirt at the end of the reel" thing on one of our prints too. It was reel 1 or 2 - I forget which.

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 11-16-2004, 02:42 PM:

Those of you seeing the "negative sparkle" at the end of REEL 1 of your Incredibles prints (Scene is where the boy is in the principal's office) check the screen about 5 minutes before the end of the reel...

Just before the end of REEL 1 where Mr. Incredible is speaking to the old woman in the insurance office, there is a vertical negative scratch on the right side of the picture. Most visible near the top and bottom of the frame. That might explain the "white dirt" afterwards. Someone at the lab goofed bigtime.

I saw this at 3 different theaters I watched the movie at. (Yes, I'm trying to catch up to Mike Olpin! [Wink]

)

Antipiracy is out of control on these prints, too. Almost if they purposely chose the worst moment(s) to put the dots. One is the split-second before Mr. Incredible's plane splashes down (R3?) right on top of light-blue water, almost in sync with the splash. Another is when Syndrome is looking over the waterfall (same reel) in the white mist. [Mad]

=TMP=

P.S. Speaking of antipiracy, the MPAA took out a full page color ad in our college paper threatening all students that, quote, "LAWSUITS BEGIN THIS WEEK" [fu]

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 11-16-2004, 04:09 PM:

One of the things film depots & studios would do with new film releases. Is to send the best quality prints to the big markets like Los Angeles, New York, San Francisco, Chicago and other major cities. The smaller cities would get the next grade down in prints. And this way of doing business with prints has been around for decades.

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 11-16-2004, 05:54 PM:

Those anti-piracy dots are ENTIRELY unacceptable- the studios ought to be thankful I'm not currently in the theater business right now, as I would be requesting replacement reels for EVERYTHING that had them visible! It's ironic they'd push for a quality presentation on "The Incredibles" and then still mess it up that way. I won't be paying to see any more movies until this whole thing stops once and for all. I can guarantee they've lost more customers through this than they have traced any bootlegs or brought any pirates to justice.

Posted by David Yauch (Member # 2754) on 11-16-2004, 06:43 PM:

quote: John Pytlak
Sounds like safelight "fog" where the unprocessed print film was exposed to a safelight that was either too bright, or for too long. What was the magenta edgeprint ID on the film?

Not sure what magenta edgeprint ID you're talking about, I'm new to this so you'll have to help me out there.

Posted by Barry Martin (Member # 1376) on 11-16-2004, 09:32 PM:

In the outer edge of the film where the SDDS soundtrack is printed (blue tint) there should be a code number in magenta (pinkish) color. These codes are printed on the raw stock and can be used to track the reel and who handled it.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 11-17-2004, 12:02 AM:

quote:
I would be requesting replacement reels for EVERYTHING that had them visible!

The problem is you'd probably get another reel with dots on it. Maybe we should organize a massive reel recall on some movie to make our point.

Posted by Phil Blake (Member # 2012) on 11-17-2004, 09:18 AM:

I am also inclined to wonder about print quality. Althought I have not received any prints to date with scratches or time code problems, but I do wonder about the overall print processing quality.

For example bridget jones 2 the trailer was excellent , bright sharp clear image , however the actual print is very grainy and pale . Quite a few films are this way , some clear some very grainy .

Posted by David Yauch (Member # 2754) on 11-17-2004, 09:34 PM:

quote: Barry Martin
In the outer edge of the film where the SDDS soundtrack is printed (blue tint) there should be a code number in magenta (pinkish) color. These codes are printed on the raw stock and can be used to track the reel and who handled it.

Ah I've noticed those. I didn't check today what the ID was so I'll have to check in on saturday as I'm going out of town tomorrow.

Posted by Barry Martin (Member # 1376) on 11-18-2004, 01:32 AM:

Just remember to look at the part that has the damage/error. and go to the nearest code. Those codes are on the RAW stock so I would assume if there was a lab splice in between the code would be different for each side of the splice. At least that's how I've come to understand it.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-30-2004, 03:18 AM:

I even heard that the major cities even receives IB prints of the major movies at their theatres whereas the rest of us gets the thousand-prints-a-minute Eastman stock. - Monte

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-30-2004, 03:22 AM:

Monte, you should consider using the search function of these forums and search for "IB" and/or "dye transfer".