Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Analog sound track problems

This is topic Analog sound track problems in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Jarryd Beard (Member # 2543) on 11-17-2004, 01:19 PM:

Perhaps there is a similar discussion already, but I've searched and couldn't find any. If someone may be so kind as to direct me to that topic if it exists, I would be forever grateful. Anyway, here's my question:

Does anybody know what's up with analog sound tracts over the past year. In the early summer especially, there were quite a few films that had a reel of terrible, muffled sound. We had three prints of Troy and all had identical problems on a reel. Because of this, we figured it would be useless to ask for replacements. However, when there was an isolated case, a replacement reel was usually requested. The problem didn't seem to come from any particular studio. I don't know about the film manufacturer, though. Our six screen theatre has three DTS and three analog only houses. The only LED sound reader was in a DTS house. We really didn't know if an LED would solve the problem over tungsten, the digital was the source.

Anyway, I'd be interested to know of any related problems, especially if the audio that performed poorly on tungsten was ok on LED's. The switch to new sound readers is probably inevitable now due to the release of cyan dye. But, it would still be nice to know.

Thanks, and apologies in advance if this topic already exists somewhere.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-17-2004, 01:47 PM:

A problem with the sound negative would generally affect all the prints for that reel, so it's likely it would have come up as an issue here. Perhaps some reels had problems with the soundtrack application, which might affect the same reel over a group of sequential print numbers? Improper soundtrack application would degrade sound more on tungsten readers than on red LED readers. When issues like this are found during inspection or the first screenings, replacement reels should be requested immediately.

Posted by Tom Wienholt (Member # 1510) on 11-17-2004, 01:51 PM:

I had the same problem on two of my prints of Troy, on the same reel. It sounds like "wind in a sail", like a pulsing muffled sound. I have actually had this same problem for many different movies, usually on just one reel. Usually the problem is solved by ordering a replacement reel but sometimes the replacement is just as bad.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-17-2004, 02:04 PM:

quote: Tom Wienholt
It sounds like "wind in a sail", like a pulsing muffled sound

Often caused by problems with the width or position of the soundtrack developer application. So the area of the track having silver varies in position. This is one of the problems that will be eliminated by cyan dye soundtracks.

Posted by Jarryd Beard (Member # 2543) on 11-17-2004, 03:26 PM:

quote: John Pytlak
This is one of the problems that will be eliminated by cyan dye soundtracks.

How is it that cyan dye would avoid these problems? Isn't there just as much room for error in processing?

[ 11-17-2004, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Jarryd Beard ]

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 11-17-2004, 04:45 PM:

The problem described above is caused when the sound track area is re-developed, cyan tracks are non-redeveloped and thus don't suffer from this particular hassle.

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 11-19-2004, 03:36 PM:

quote: Tom Wienholt
It sounds like "wind in a sail", like a pulsing muffled sound

Ok, this is explains my problem. I just installed two CE reverse readers, and this had been driving me nuts trying to figure out what "I" had did wrong. I hear this noise frequently in trailers. And at certain times in the feature.

Annoying.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-19-2004, 04:00 PM:

quote: Brad Allen
Ok, this is explains my problem. I just installed two CE reverse readers, and this had been driving me nuts trying to figure out what "I" had did wrong. I hear this noise frequently in trailers. And at certain times in the feature.

Hope you did a complete A-Chain alignment. If the readers were not aligned properly, you may actually be scanning the edge of the applicated area.

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 11-20-2004, 10:36 AM:

Yep, did a complete A chain. Buzz track is completely nil.

Now hearing this on the Incredibles print that was just moved into one of the CE's auditoriums. Did not hear it on Polar Express when it was in there.

It's a much different sound than what a mis-alignment of the lateral guide causes. I'm very familiar with the "motor boat" sound caused by scanning the DTS timecode track or the sprocket holes. This sound is almost like a hum, it's very subtle, only heard during quiet passages. Stop the film, and sound stops as well. Any suggestions appreciated.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-20-2004, 12:07 PM:

quote: John Pytlak
If the readers were not aligned properly, you may actually be scanning the edge of the applicated area.

I had this problem with ASR-40's a number of times and quit using them but never experienced this problem with the more expensive C.E. scanners or any of the Kelmars. Not sure what causes it but I interchanged one ASR-40 with a BACP and the problem went away. Perhaps there is not good unit to unit consistency in internal alignment or LED alignment may be more critical to the optics they are using. It was not the films soundtrack in my case and Illumination uniformity was quite good.....

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 11-20-2004, 08:37 PM:

Hmmm, Thanks Mark interesting. Guess I will call CE on Monday and beat them about the head and shoulders some and see what they say about it.