Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: SPECO Brain Wrap Rollers

This is topic SPECO Brain Wrap Rollers in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 11-29-2004, 06:04 PM:

I'm tired of the brain wrap rollers on my LP-270's leaving scratches on my adverts/first trailer. Most of them have come loose at least once in my time in the booth and required me to reattach them at the least convienient times possible.

Is there another SPECO part I can substitute for these so film running against them will not scratch? Can I go without them altogether? Or do I just have to live with these pests?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-29-2004, 06:10 PM:

Rollers around the brain have always been a pet peeve of mine, inparticularly when they are not the proper height to do any good and only cause damage! (Try explaining this to non-projectionists who design the equipment though.)

I am assuming you have the newer LP270s with the clusterfuck of a brain design, as opposed to the nice simple design of the past. Can you verify this? Do you have one or two rollers on the takeup elevator?

Try threading things up and "overspinning" the payout platter exactly 1/2 turn with things threaded and ready to start, and having the takeup platter's elevator roller as low as it can go without the motors trying to spin. That will force the platter into the smoothest start it is capable of with an average ramp-up on the projector (such as a Simplex).

Remember the LP270 has 3 speeds in that payout arm.

1. Off
2. Speed of takeup elevator
3. Full throttle

Essentially what you are trying to do is ensure that the takeup elevator roller(s) are as low as they get on startup just as the payout arm starts to move from "off" to "speed of takeup". This will get that payout platter spinning fast enough on it's own that you won't scratch the first stretch of film on the roll (assuming typical 8 second douser open timer is being used).

And of course never, ever do anything stupid like running soundtrack down! [Roll Eyes]

That's a scratch guarantee for the first thing on the roll when using LP270s.

=============

A much better solution is to have your technician increase the douser open timing on your automations. Many have an adjustment that can extend that 8 second douser open relay to 20 seconds. That's enough to not worry about what the LP270 is doing on startup, because it will only be scratching the leader. (Of course try explaining this to some tech set in his ways who thinks the automation can't function properly if not set to 8 seconds. [Roll Eyes]

)

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 11-29-2004, 06:57 PM:

Brad,
Yes, I have the clusterfuck brains and the two roller elevator design.

I can understand the benefit of the position of the elevator rollers, which you described. And while I do see some trailers being scratched as the takeup gets up to running speed, I have more problems with film getting wound too tight during threading. Should I thread slower as I reach the end of the leader? We use the Maxi 12XPC automation, but even if the system can extend the douser open timing any longer, our leaders are only 60'. That may be the ultimate issue, but I doubt management is going to approve any more purchase orders for leader. [Frown]

I think our tech wouldn't have a problem extending the douser, though.

And soundtrack facing has never been a problem at Lakeville. That's one of the first techniques that I burn into the memory of all new hires [thumbsup]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-29-2004, 08:32 PM:

Sounds like you may need to implement a policy where once the projectionist gets to the takeup elevator when threading, he/she slows down to let the payout catch up. Still any way you slice it, longer leaders are the solution. Just attach a stretch of junk trailers/green bands or something to the beginning of your leaders.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 11-29-2004, 11:35 PM:

When I was working in a booth with Specos I developed the unconscious habit of starting the projector and giving the payout platter a push with my other hand.

That habit has stuck with me to this day. Whenever I start a projector (with platter) I always keep one eye on the film as it enters the brain to make sure it isn't "strangling" before the platter gets up to speed.

This is/was especially important to do on really large prints that took extra time to come up to speed.

Posted by Timothy Eiler (Member # 383) on 11-30-2004, 05:18 PM:

quote: Randy Stankey
When I was working in a booth with Specos I developed the unconscious habit of starting the projector and giving the payout platter a push with my other hand.

That is what I have been doing for 20+ years during the 7 seconds I am waiting for the picture to hit the screen and have never scratched the first preview

Posted by Nicholas Roznovsky (Member # 861) on 11-30-2004, 05:24 PM:

Hmm, I guess I've been fortunate with my LP-270s throughout the years, both old and new. The only payout motor problems I've had have been with the newer ones, and those have been sporadic at most.

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 11-30-2004, 05:39 PM:

The immediate push technique was standard procedure in our old training manual that I dug out of storage. That was about a year and a half, ago. While that would be an excellent solution, our platters are situated on the non-operating side and I doubt any of the staff would agree to the extra work [Frown]

I'll see if I can implement the addition of part of a trailer to the leaders, but the guys who've been in my booth for awhile tend to reject that sort of change [Frown]

Worth a try, anyways!

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 11-30-2004, 11:14 PM:

My current booth has the platter on the driver's side. I can push the button with my left hand and give the platter a push with my right.

At Cinemark, the platters were all on the opposite side. You stood behind the lamphouse, pushed the button with the right hand and spun the platter with the left.

No matter what the arrangement of your equipment, you should have plenty of time to get up to the front of the machine to check the picture. You shouldn't really need to worry about focus and framing very much. You SHOULD have your projector in frame when it starts.

Besides, it forces you to make one last look at the film before you go starting the projector. You have one last chance to fix any unforseen problems before you hit that button.

Posted by Edward Jurich (Member # 1787) on 12-01-2004, 09:02 AM:

Another problem are the way those magnets are secured, sometimes they move and you have to put them back into position with your hand (but turn the power off first [Eek!]

Posted by Timothy Eiler (Member # 383) on 12-01-2004, 04:00 PM:

quote: Randy Stankey
At Cinemark, the platters were all on the opposite side. You stood behind the lamphouse, pushed the button with the right hand and spun the platter with the left.

Here is the true professional. He is willing to help the platter start no matter how much work it is.

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 12-01-2004, 05:56 PM:

At the 2 bigger theaters I've worked at I ordered longer leaders.
At the indie house that was too poor to buy new leaders I used green bands. Worked just fine.
We had Potts platters there.

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 12-02-2004, 05:43 PM:

Randy,
No, I don't have to worry about focus, framing, etc... But sadly, a few recent hires still do. I'm going to discuss the plan of longer leaders with my boss, tomorrow. If I do get the plan implemented, I'll probably have to deal with the whining of a few coworkers. Not like it'd be the first issue they've hated anyway. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 12-03-2004, 01:17 AM:

I can feel for you there, Steve.
The best thing to do is fight them till they give in and accept that your way is better. I had to do that with covering prints at night.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-03-2004, 01:55 AM:

Yep, a piece of Mongolian Clusterfuk for sure (lol). Yet the Lp-270's that I worked with at a 4plex back in the late 80's, ran real smooth. Just the MUT was a POS! Clutch dog design was something else..

Once an easily make film wraps with a good piece of film, preferably clear, and use a clothes pin. Wrap the film around the outside of the film wind on the platter, making sure that the film wrap overlaps each other and secure with a clothes pin. I'm sure that practically everyone here, one time or another, has used this with 35, 70mm, 15/70 IMAX or 8/70 SuperScreen operations, or is using this technique to keep the film roll end from getting loose during the rotation of the platter.

Suction cups and "platter pucks"....whatever floats your boat.

Sometimes when I have to readjust the platter speed, I would readjusted the height of the motor drive shaft rubber-tire thingeys when a groove was getting in them from running on the edge of the platter. I always, when putting on a new drive tire on the motor, is to have it down as far as possible on the motor shaft, so I can have at least 2 inches of vertical adjustment play if needed when wear occurs. This could be the problem with the "trombone" not picking up the film fast enough, or the "trombone" spirial thingey, that is attached to the rheostat isn't timed correctly with the spirial relationship to the rheostat(been a long time since I've worked on LP-270's, so please forgive me of my proper part naming..), and opening late.

And, what was weird, with the topics of concern on winding soundtrack down with these platters is that we always ran soundtrack down to prevent scratching, whereas the other way would created them. Just those 8-pin plug-in diode units in the pushbutton control console I have to be concerned about-they short out and the fuses blow in the base.

Course, we know why of the rollers on the Strong brains..AW3(R)'s has the better idea.

thx-Monte

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-03-2004, 03:38 AM:

The LP270 does not have adjustable motor height and needs no timing.

Running soundtrack up on an LP270 does not cause scratches. That was an operator error you witnessed.

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 12-06-2004, 09:50 AM:

Happy ending: We are extending our leaders to 100 ft. My boss is putting in the order this week.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-06-2004, 12:47 PM:

Very cool, now what kind of automation do you have? Does it have a "start cue" capability?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-06-2004, 03:31 PM:

Also if the projectors are equiped with a slow start motor control so the machine ramps up to speed I havn't seen a wrapping problem

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 12-06-2004, 05:39 PM:

Maxi 12X-PC, the only start cue I know of is the "start-all" cue for interlocking.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-06-2004, 07:48 PM:

Then you will have to have your guys flip the motor switch on, then at a predetermined point on the leader, press the START button and turn the motor switch off.

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 12-07-2004, 05:48 PM:

I was expecting that. We used to have strangely dedicated projectionists who would do that with our sixty foot leader, but then the people breaking down trailer packs started chopping frames instead of peeling, and the motor-start practice became incovenient.

Posted by Bill Langfield (Member # 818) on 12-08-2004, 09:57 AM:

This might be a useless answer, but, whatever.
(Brad's answer was the winner - that works)

However, at the Arthouse, we have a 60 second rundown of an old film ad, while an overture is playing on the dat player while the house lights change colour, the main curtain opens, then the trailer hits as the silks open.

At the mainstream, yeah, same problem as discussed in the thread.
It really just equals, No presentation.
(ie no curtains, no lighting effects, no overture)
Surely the longer 'countdown' using an old ad is the answer (to the scraching problem) though.

The only time we need to 'help' the Speco's to get up to speed is when running feature only 70mm. I love that stuff - it's been too long.
Last one was Titannic (DTS only dual players), almost got Mad....World but they balked at the price of special lens it needed. DOh.

Bill.