Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Self threading 35mm projectors??

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Posted by Allison Parsons (Member # 2728) on 11-29-2004, 10:48 PM:

Was there ever a self-threading 35mm projector, or talks about making one? My 8 and 16mm are self threading (for the most part) of course, so i'm assuming it would just be too hard to make a 35mm one work as easily as most 8mm.

I highly highly enjoy the act of threading but that question has always been in the back of my head.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 11-29-2004, 11:24 PM:

I'm sure somebody's tried to invent one at one time or another but every time somebody brings up this question to me I always give the same answer.

There's an old saying: "If you make something so simple that even an idiot could use it, only an idiot would WANT to use it!".

[Wink]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-30-2004, 01:58 AM:

Big reason why not ever a self-threading machine was dreamt up, is due to the framing issue: 35mm didn't have the luxury as does 8mm/9.5mm/16mm, where these formats has the one sprocket per frame. - Monte

Posted by Dick Vaughan (Member # 540) on 11-30-2004, 06:27 AM:

The IMAX MPX projector is self threading and has 15 perfs per frame.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-30-2004, 07:36 AM:

The Arriflex "LocPro" 35mm portable projector is "slot threading", where the film is simply dropped into a slot and the projector forms the loops and engages the film on the sprockets:

http://www.arri.com/sub/us/org/press/dailies.htm

quote:
Poster remembered hearing about the Arriflex LocPro 35, a portable 35mm projector designed to screen printed dailies. In fact, fellow cinematographer Richard Crudo, ASC had used it on location in Nelson, British Columbia, for the Disney/Spyglass feature Out Cold, when he was 300 miles from the nearest screening room. (Other recent films that used the LocPro 35 include Cast Away, The Mexican, Zoolander, Evolution, Big Bad Love and Domestic Disturbance.) At just over 100 pounds, measuring 29"x28"x20" and enclosed in a rolling case, the LocPro is easy to transport and compact enough to fit on a tabletop.

http://www.arri.com/infodown/other/broch/locpro_e.pdf

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 11-30-2004, 07:46 AM:

This may be a stupid question, but I wonder how you watch dailies 300 miles away from the nearest screening room when that probably means you are also 300 miles away from the nearest lab to develop the negative?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-30-2004, 08:03 AM:

Sometimes they are "Next-Dailies". [Big Grin]

Many cinematographers rightfully feel "video dailies" do not have the resolution to pick up subtle problems like slight errors in focus pulling, and really prefer looking at film dailies, even on location. Others rely on the lab contact to relay any problems they see when viewing the dailies at the lab.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 11-30-2004, 08:42 AM:

Like John said about dailies, can be done using portable systems. There are a few companies that have motor homes turned into mobile screening rooms for location shoots. We handle dailies here and sometimes they are not seen the of the shoot. But sometimes a day or so later. All you need to see dailies is a projector and a mag reproducer. Because you are only hearing a single track of sound.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-30-2004, 10:32 AM:

And sometimes that magnetic reproducer is built right into the projector using a special soundhead so separate picture and soundtrack can all run together on the same machine. I have two such units in storage--with full Davis loop-like soundtrack paths (not like that awful Simplex "let's stick a mag head and a couple of rollers in a 5-Star" thing).

Before the advent of magnetic recording in the late 40's sound was recorded on photographic film directly by optical recorders like those now used only at the very end of the chain to make the sound negatives for making release prints. Thus, the soundtracks being cut and spliced by editors at their Moviolas were prints of such original sound negatives. Dailies and workprint screenings would have used a projector with an ordinary optical soundhead under it with modifications to both so that separate picture and sound films can simultaneously pass through the appropriate parts.

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 11-30-2004, 12:17 PM:

My buddy Dave ran the LockPro for dailies on The Mexican here. They just set up a tripod screen, the LockPro, and a Rangertone dubber in a hotel room and voila, instant dailies. Well almost instant--the footage was flown to LA for overnight processing and printing and viewed the next day.

Other shoots here have used screening trailers or built their own temporary screening rooms using equipment brought up from LA. There are no longer any screening rooms here that I know of, or even theaters that can do changeovers, let alone handle double-system stuff.

The stuff Steve mentions is usually what we get here. The stuff I used on Casino came from Judy Dolan in Van Nuys--a pair of XL's and RCA soundheads fitted with a mag head mounted between the impedance roller and the drive sprocket. The screening trailer I checked out on here also had a very similar set up.

I seem to recall that the classic IMAX projector could be threaded in such a way as to be partially "self threading" in that it formed its own loops. Still had to thread part of it manually to ensure correct framing though. I was shown that technique once but never used it and have long since forgotten how to do it. That technique was frowned upon by IMAX.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-30-2004, 12:39 PM:

How does the MPX system auto-thread itself in frame? Does it have some sort of (optical?) sensor for this, or does it require that the end of the film be cut on a frameline?

In addition to the framing issue, the reasons for not having an auto-thread 35mm machine probably include the general lack of need for such a device. The 16mm auto-shred [sic] concept made sense because the machines were designed to be used by school teachers, not professional projectionists. Anyone operating 35mm equipment needs to have plenty of knowedge about mechanical and electronic devices anyway; therefore, there is really not much need to simplify the equipment. Besides, if adding the "feature" were to add a dollar or more to the cost of the projector, no theatre owner would ever pay for it.

Posted by Kyle McEachern (Member # 2250) on 11-30-2004, 01:27 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
How does the MPX system auto-thread itself in frame?

From what I've been told, the MPX has the capability to adjust its framing in either direction, as far as necessary. Since it works with a "rolling loop" system, it just simply (at the press of a button) makes the next loop one perf bigger or one perf smaller to adjust where the film is, framing-wise. I haven't seen one, so I don't know what the procedure is for getting the film in frame pre-start (or if there is one), but since it can re-frame indefinitely, chances are they say "start it at a frameline at this place, and then let it go from there". But with its ability to re-frame an indefinite amount of times, if it's out it can go back in easily.

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 11-30-2004, 04:31 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
Besides, if adding the "feature" were to add a dollar or more to the cost of the projector, no theatre owner would ever pay for it.

are you kidding? theater owners will gladly pay for anything that will let them reduce their staff hours. with a self-threading projector they would only need one trained person to build and break. everyone else would be shown how to "drop the film in the hole" right after learning how to use the butter pump.

carl

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-30-2004, 05:25 PM:

Optical film recording for sound...good ol' Fantasound format for Disney's "Fantasia" - Just too bad it didn't take off for the other studios to do stereophonic sound back then. But, oh the cost of it all to for the theatre setups, and that was only for road show releases houses. More nitrate to be floating around.- Monte

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 11-30-2004, 05:28 PM:

Laemmle Theatres in Los Angeles, uses the Christie Elf platter system in that manner. At some of their theatres they had the projectionist drive between theatres. When they went into a limited service type of contract with the projectionist union. So management started and stopped shows when the projectionist was at the other theatre. With the ELF platter the film stays treaded in the projector.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 12-02-2004, 04:44 PM:

I've had a design for a completely automated 35mm system for several years. No platter, no continuous loop, no threading, self-framing. Trailers, and even the entire bill, can be changed easily. The quick description is it's a cross between a slot-load 16mm projector and a 2" quadraplex VTR.

Posted by Chris Trainor (Member # 9) on 12-02-2004, 04:56 PM:

Did you need a forklift to get the 'cassettes' loaded into this thing? [Smile]

--Chris