Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Threading Up

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Posted by Chase Hanson (Member # 2779) on 12-12-2004, 04:33 AM:

We use Simplex Projectors (looks like a Millenium, but has removable gate like 35/XL) with a SDDS in the penthouse and some manner of cue dectotor on the bottom. And I cant really figure out, for the life of me, how its supposed to be 50% faster than down threading. I can downthread a projector in just under 2 minutes, after about a weeks practice I can upthread a projector in about 3 minutes. At best I can forsee this getting dropped to just over two minutes, but no where close to supposed under a minute that I theoretically should be achieving.

Whats the deal? [Confused]

Posted by Barry Martin (Member # 1376) on 12-12-2004, 05:36 AM:

I found I couldn't do it exactly as explained in the Tips section, so I simply loop the film to the projector and back to the takeup, lock the film down on the bottom to keep tension and then thread from top to bottom. I don't have to worry about loop sizes because I measured out my leader and marked where to make them. I can do this in just under 60 seconds when I have to, but usually go a little slower to be safe. Only 2 screens here so no big rush.

Posted by William Valdes (Member # 2690) on 12-12-2004, 10:08 AM:

quote: Barry Martin
I don't have to worry about loop sizes because I measured out my leader and marked where to make them.

So let me see if I understand correctly, your two projectors are set up identically with the same distance apart from their platters so you're able to thread with marks on the leader that allow you to set up your loops every time? That's interesting. We could never do that, we have 20 projectors with varying distances between platters and a schedule that ensures most prints get shuffled around a number of times before it leaves the building.

Posted by Jannette McQueen (Member # 1885) on 12-12-2004, 01:28 PM:

Personally, I think everyone has to find their own comfort zone when threading. As long as it's not damaging the film, collecting dust on the film and whatnot, I'm sure you can do things in whatever way works for you.

When I started at my current theater, the guy who taught me threading the kinotons we work with, pulled the slack down from the top on a set-up where the platter is on the driving side of the projector. Course, I wasn't exactly thrilled with that idea since that way, there's leader all over the floor. Made me cringe every time I watched him, and other operators he'd trained, thread. So I started threading the same way I was originally taught to thread left-hand platter configuration. But that was from when I was working on Brenkerts, so there was a lot more sprockets to work with, so it took a little bit of time getting my method perfect. Where do your fingers go to make it work, etc. Just takes time and repetition.

Anyway, here's how I've been taught to thread left-hand configuration: (I set the intermittant and clean the gate before threading) payout to infeed roller (or I think in "tips" it might have been called "upper-magazine roller") down passed the operating side of the projetor, to outfeed roller, to rewind platter. Then, when I go to thread the projector, I pull slack up from the bottom and run it through our automation detector, lock it in the hold-back sprocket in any old spot (since at my new theater we use a running start cue I can't go by the numbers the way I did on the brenkerts) then, pull the leader down, place the film in frame at the gate, make my upper loop, then lower loop, through the soundhead, and then adjust the position of the film on the holdback sprocket.

It's threading-up in a kinda threading-down way? or the other way around or something. Probably the same as Barry Martin. Anyway, I do go faster this way then pulling the slack from the top, but I don't think it's as fast as 50%.

As far as the marks on the film. Like I said, I used to go by the numbers just because they were there it's convenient. But Barry just meant for the loop sizes, so the distance from the projetor to the platter wouldn't matter. At my old theater, to line things up the way I wanted them, usually I'd stop it when the #21 got to the first roller after the projector, but sometimes it would line up best if it was just before 21 got there, or later, depending on the distance. Seems to me that no two projectors thread the same way, you just have to get to know them. [Smile]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-12-2004, 01:32 PM:

2-3 minutes??? I think my record is 5 seconds, but I commonly take my time and it takes me about 10 seconds to thread a typical projector. I'm guessing you are relatively new to projection. Don't sweat it. By the time you thread a projector 100,000 times you will be faster. It's more important to get the film threaded PROPERLY, than how fast you can do it.

Posted by Chase Hanson (Member # 2779) on 12-12-2004, 03:33 PM:

I dont think you and I are on the same page as far as "threading the projector" is concerned, Brad.

2-3 minutes to take a print from sitting on one platter to a state where its ready to run.

To thread the "projector" ie. establish two properly sized loops and frame the film properly in the film trap takes roughly 5-10 seconds depending on the condition of the leader.

Posted by Jon Miller (Member # 163) on 12-12-2004, 03:38 PM:

I don't look at the process of threading as if it was some kind of race. Being able to thread fast may be very useful in an emergency, but to do so under normal circumstances is just an invitation to threading-related problems for some people.

Whenever there is sufficient time to do so (and there almost always is), I'd rather take my time, confident that the threading will be correct and in-frame, than hastily thread at the last minute and potentially court disaster. Like Brad suggested, do it properly, not fast.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-12-2004, 04:14 PM:

quote: Chase Hanson
I can downthread a projector in just under 2 minutes, after about a weeks practice I can upthread a projector in about 3 minutes.

Read what you wrote above, Chase.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-12-2004, 07:42 PM:

One 4-screener that I used to work at, me and the other fellows up there would have these "threading races" for fun. I would always beat them (using V5s and LP-270s) in a 50 second run, and that was from the time I pulled the ring, till the trombone was drawn up, and that's even setting the intermittent, correct loop sizes, and what else was needed. That was almost 20yrs ago.

Nowdays, who cares about speed, just do it properly and correctly, even though I can still lace up 6 machines within 10 minutes if I have to. Even though the other operators in the circuit I work with at now, chide me of my "slowness", but I just tell them all, .."did you get your framing right? did you get your loop sizes right, if you hit that start button, will the film start without any film damage?" .. most of the time it wasn't so. Then I would lay into them about chiding me of being slow, and also lay into them about their sloppy habits that they were taught with (I have a uphill battle to work with these "kids" in retraining procedures). -thx Monte

Posted by Barry Martin (Member # 1376) on 12-12-2004, 10:19 PM:

William, Jannette's thoughts on my post are right on. I only have 2 projectors and both are serviced by a 5-deck platter between them so they are pretty much the same distance. Also both are using Century "H" heads so that part of threading is identical on both. If they weren't I would simply put enough of the first length of leader to get to the projector and back to the platter which have the greatest distance between projector/platter. This way when threading to a projector from a platter that is closer all you need do is pull more leader through when going back to the takeup and before actually threading the head.

Jeannette you are also right on my threading up AND down method. Basically my leader is a long line of black with 21 frames of clear then a longer line of black. I thread to the upper magazine and back to the takeup. Go back to the projector and pull the film to get tension on the takeup end so it does not touch the ground, thread the failsafe and lock it down in the final sprocket. I then set the first frame of clear leader in front of the aperature and lock down the intermittent, make my top loop and thread the digital reader on top, make the bottom loop and then re-adjust the position of the film on the last sprocket so that the tension is set for the basement sound reader. If all is done properly the last frame of the clear is directly in front of the basement sound reader and thus the sound is 21 frames ahead of the picture, as John Pytlak once told me was the proper distance (as opposed to the 24 frames I had always been told at Loews).

Comfort is the key to proper threading, as already said above. So long as the film doesn't hit the floor (including the leader) and nothing is rubbing something it's not supposed to, whatever gets the job done should be fine in most cases.

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 12-13-2004, 03:02 AM:

how big was your lower loop when you were threading a 24 frame offset to the sound reader (and what was the projector)? we thread 20 frames on our centurys. even 21 looks excessive.

carl

Posted by Chase Hanson (Member # 2779) on 12-13-2004, 03:41 AM:

Sorry Brad, Im not presently able to discern exactly what it is you are alluding to.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-13-2004, 04:08 AM:

Simple. You are talking about threading up a projector, not threading up the entire show (which would include the platter and film cleaners, etc).

Posted by Barry Martin (Member # 1376) on 12-13-2004, 11:07 AM:

Carl,

Pretty big but not touching anything. They were Strong Simplex heads but I forget exactly which make. This is one of the main reasons I've come to respect these forums so much and have real sympathy for the average projectionist at a corporate chain. When you have such a job and are very young you just assume that a multi-million dollar company knows EVERYTHING about it's business and listen to everything they say. Boy was I green. [Big Grin]

21 frames is pretty tight on our Century H heads, there is barely enough room for my finger between the film and the pad roller before locking it down.

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 12-13-2004, 12:14 PM:

In a pinch I can thread AW3's in around 30 seconds depending on the platter. This however would trash our first trailers if we didn't have long enough leaders, but hey!

No film on the floor up from failsafe to penthouse takes me about 35 seconds on a simplex 35 and about 15 on Century SA's with R3 soundheads and an SDDS penthouse.

On average it takes a little longer because I don't rush as much and I clean the gate, trap, and intermittent shoe unless it's a rushed thread. Combined with weekly cleaning we have very clean equipment.

When I was originally trained I learned to thread down. Dolby Digital and SDDS units seem easier this way to me still but I've since corrected myself.

In the middle I started clipping the leader on the holdback sprocket in the soundhead after threading the failsafe up. Then going top down and releasing the slack. It's worked out pretty well for me and that's how a couple other projectionists I know thread.
Our previews always look great and our ads (gag) even look good.
Hooray for threading up!

Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 12-13-2004, 12:19 PM:

Good advise from Brad. There is no right or wrong method for threading a projector properly. After looping the film around the projector from the platter I start at the top soundhead (some of our machines have two on top, one of which we usually bypass) and work my way down (as I've done for 25 years). Others here lock the film in the gate first. There's never a need to hurry. If you've got a "late start" the audience can wait a few more seconds while you thread the machine properly. Ours are Strong-Simplex units.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-14-2004, 12:28 AM:

True, with the 21 frame count from "Picture Start" frame in the aperture opening, to the "Sound Start" midline frame mark, directly across the scanner area in a Century, that bottom loop does look pretty tight as the film wants to run into the Intermittent sprocket pad assembly, but doesn't. Some operators add an extra sprocket or two to the lower loopsize to make themselves breathe a little better.

Course, it all depends where the intermittent assembly is framed at the beginning.

If the assembly is cranked all the way up, that loop IS going to be a bit tighter, being the intermittent assembly is farther distance from the middle constant speed sprocket.

All the way down, the loop might look safer, being the intermittent assembly is closer to the middle constant speed sprocket.

Actual trick is the have the assembly close to the middle of the vertical travel for comfortable results and have that play if a misframe happens.

P35GPS is basically the same: Have that framing knob dead center for the correct 21 frame count and loop size.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-14-2004, 01:24 AM:

The Christie P35GPS produces the steadiest picture with the framing racked as low as it can go, while still being "in frame". Crank it down as low as it will go, then raise it slightly and you're good.

On the P35GPS, the lower loop should pull snug against the pad roller in the OPEN position...as the projector is turned over by hand. (It should not "tug" on the pad roller.) Any larger and you will be placing scratches on the image that resemble cinch mark scratches (tiny dash scratches) *or* you will be damaging the SDDS and SRD track (if the projector is equipped with slap guards underneath the ultramittent).

The Century should be threaded where at the smallest point of the loop's travel, you can just fit a Sharpie marker in between the film and intermittent shoe. Any larger and again you risk the same scratching issue. Plus, it runs quieter this way.

Posted by David Yauch (Member # 2754) on 12-14-2004, 01:32 AM:

Seeing as how I've received about 15 different opinions on this, i might as well add another. What's the proper loop size for a V5? And don't say the proper loop size involves throwing the projector in the garbage, I can't do that.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-14-2004, 01:50 AM:

On a V5, remember the loop will get smaller once the machine is in motion. Personally I find the projectors run their best when the lower loop is just about as big around as a Sharpie marker when they are running. On the upper loop of a V5, you want the film to "bend backwards" over the top of the gate. It produces less buckling in the gate and a steadier picture.

Posted by David Yauch (Member # 2754) on 12-14-2004, 03:35 AM:

Good. That's just about the size i've kept my loops since training. Some insist on making the biggest loops possible so that they wont touch any metal when you turn the motor knob a few rotations, but I find that's overkill. It's completely unnecessary to have the leeway to turn your framing knob 2 full frames both ways, and if you need to then you really, really suck.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-14-2004, 05:14 AM:

Yep the "sharpie/index finger" proper size policy-works every time. Interesting how the P35 copied the Century in lower loop sizing/formations.

also...about the same with the PRO-35: keep the top loop as small as possible without excess flopping, but not too small, or it'll rattle some with those flat rails in the trap, and that machine can run pretty quiet - just as long as you can keep that 21 frame count in the lower half.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-14-2004, 06:29 AM:

It's probably worth pointing out that the "21 frames" distance is appropriate for a screening room or home theatre. Larger theatres demand smaller loop sizes; otherwise, the sound sync will be off in the middle of the auditorium (sound behind picture). I usually thread with 20 frames between the gate and the soundhead in an "average" theatre, less in especially deep ones.

I believe that Dolby has a test film that has single-frame flashes with beep tones on the track. This isn't actually necessary, though, and any film with lots of lip-sync dialogue can be used to figure out the proper sync arrangement for any particular size of theatre.

As for other loop sizes, different projectors have different tolerances. When running 70mm on a Century JJ, the top loop has to be dead-on to avoid scratching film, unless the 35mm pad roller is removed. Other machines are much more tolerant. With V5s, the top loop will hit some part of the machine and scratch the film if it is too big.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-14-2004, 11:06 AM:

Standard SMPTE 40-2001 specifies 21 frames between the picture frame and the corresponding analog sound ON THE PRINT itself. As Scott notes, because sound takes about 1/24 second to travel from the screen speakers to the center of the audience in a moderate sized theatre, you want the sound to "lead" the picture by about a frame, so thread with 20 frames between picture aperture and analog sound pickup, unless you are in a small screening room or drive-in (very close to the speakers).

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-14-2004, 02:15 PM:

Interesting. Now that draws the question on Digital: With DTS:do we tick the delay setting back one notch and basically the same with SR-d - either the penthouses, or the basement readers to achieve this 20 frame count for the larger auditoriums? thx-Monte

Posted by Eric Webb (Member # 2772) on 12-31-2004, 02:26 AM:

I think threading it right is the best way instead of messing the print up

Posted by Christian Volpi (Member # 2370) on 12-31-2004, 04:06 PM:

quote: Eric Webb
I think threading it right is the best way instead of messing the print up

No shit?

Posted by Thomas King (Member # 2745) on 12-31-2004, 05:59 PM:

I draw the film straight through from one platter to the other, lock in the gate, go down, up, and then tension. Probably not the fastest way of doing it, but then it doesn't need to be. It's easy, and you never get film touching the ground.

Posted by Barry Martin (Member # 1376) on 12-31-2004, 11:41 PM:

quote: Christian Volpi
No shit?

Priceless Christian! [Big Grin]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-01-2005, 01:46 AM:

quote: Christian Volpi
No shit?

..take X-Lax! [Wink]