Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Filmguard questions!

This is topic Filmguard questions! in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006779

Posted by David Yauch (Member # 2754) on 12-14-2004, 01:28 AM:

Ok so here's the deal. I went to go thread up a projector today, and I noticed that around the projector it looked like it had snowed blue the night before. There was soundtrack EVERYWHERE. There were places in nooks and crannies with nearly an inch of buildup. We had a few of our technicians in the building fixing some stuff so I had one take a look and we deiscovered a loose gate that we believe was causing the soundtrack shredding. Anyways I cleaned up the projector real good, reseated the gate, and then decided it needed to be run through a cleaner(as in, you could see the soundtrack damage just by looking at the print while it was laying on the platter). My booth manager brought over the dry-web media cleaner and I asked if we had any film-guard. He had never heard of it. Ok. So I set up the PTRs, as I wasn't about to try dry-web with all the static problems we have had of late, and the print ran fine, with far less shedding than it had before. The particle transfer rollers were caked with layer after layer of soundtrack shreddings. This left me searching the booth for the rest of the day for some damn film-guard, which I couldn't find for the life of me. My GM is definately a booth guy, so I talked to him, and he's given me permission to e-mail the head of our engineering department to see what he says about possibly getting film-guard.

My questions are as follows:

1) How do I justify the cost of using film-guard over PTRs and standard dry-web cleaning?

2) We will need another dry-web cleaner(we only have 1, maybe 2, for 25 screens) at least if I want to have any reasonable time-table in which prints are cleaned(I'm going to aim for about every two weeks for each print, including at least a day during their opening weekend). How would it be best to work this so that each print will be as good as i can get it with the supplies available(lets assume 2 PTRs, 2 dry web w/FG)?

3) Assuming everything is approved, and assuming order supplies monthly. How much of everything involved should we order at a time?

4) If he says no to film-guard, what should I do? Our presentation is very good here, we clean projectors very well with toothbrushes, Q-tips, long q-tips with wooden handles, 409 for lamphouses, a combination of chemicals is used on the projectors(not sure whats in it, but it works great and was formulated and used by a long, long-time projectionist and used for many years). We also use brushes, canned air when needed, and every part of each projector is deep cleaned regularly, but we still have dirt problems. I've already talked to my booth manager and we have decided that we're going to overhaul the print cleaning(right now they are cleaned every 15 days with PTR or dry-web). They stay presentable because of how much time we spend cleaning projectors but that's definately the one area of our presentation that could use the most work. What should I do if my request for film-guard is denied? What should I do assuming no additional supplies are granted?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-14-2004, 01:40 AM:

1. Buy a bottle and do the comparisons for your GM. It's a pretty effortless sell.

2. Toss the PTRs. They're not worth the hassle and every time you use them they become less and less effective.

Assuming 2 cleaners for 25 screens (don't tell me they can't afford another film cleaner in such a big complex), and assuming 5 shows a day, that's 875 shows a week...and you're only going to be able to clean 60 of them. (This assumes you get two per cleaner in the matinee, then two per evening due to showtimes.)

FRIDAY
1 and 2 all day (newest prints)
SATURDAY
3 and 4 all day (next newest prints)
SUNDAY
5 and 6 first two shows
7 and 8 last two shows
MONDAY
9 and 10 first two shows
11 and 12 last two shows
TUESDAY
13 and 14 first two shows
15 and 16 last two shows
WEDNESDAY
17 and 18 first two shows
19 and 20 last two shows
THURSDAY
21 and 22 first two shows
23 and 24 last two shows
(You're bound to lose at least one print per week, so that's 25.)

Every morning change out to fresh media pads and saturate them. If you are using Film-Tech media, you should be able to cut the pads in half on most cleaners and movies (except the ridiculously long movies, where you may need to use the entire roll). Doing this will double the amount of cleaning you will get off of a roll.

3. Assuming you cut the media pads in half, you will go through approximately 1 box of media per week. Assuming you cut the media pads in half, you will go through approximately 1 bottle of FilmGuard every two weeks. (Think about it, if you only have half the length of media on the cleaner, it will only soak up half the amount of FilmGuard when you saturate the pads.)

4. Quit and go somewhere else. Again, a 25 plex CAN afford to spend a few bucks on their presentation. You will also find that all of the other "cleaning supplies" won't really be needed anymore, so there is some savings there too. Be sure and save the plastic cores the media comes rolled onto as well. You can recycle them for more supplies. (AMC is by far the biggest backer of the recycling program, as we receive recycling requests regularly from AMC theaters. Go AMC! [thumbsup]

)

Chris Hipp here on the forum works at a 30 plex and only has a few cleaners and he has the best AMC presentation I have ever seen by leaps and bounds. (You really wouldn't think you were in a multiplex when you see his prints.) You may want to see what his cleaning schedule is like, but I think it's something similar to what I outlined.

Posted by David Yauch (Member # 2754) on 12-14-2004, 02:49 AM:

Thanks brad, I've definately got my work cut out for me. I think I've got a real good chance at getting at least 3 cleaners up and running. I'll know a lot more on friday.

Oh and one last question, where can I get just the filmguard bottles. Everywhere I look I am seeing packages that come with dry web cleaners and film-tech media too. While such a package will probably be purchased, I'll need prices for future refills too.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-14-2004, 03:46 AM:

Packages??? Are you just assuming that by looking at the pictures? FilmGuard is sold in "kit" form, which includes a bottle, 3 coupling cores (necessary to facilitate reusing the media) a sprayer and instructions.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-14-2004, 08:29 AM:

When I was still working at Cinemark, I was also moonlighting at Mercyhurst. (Now I work at Mercyhurst full time.)

I bought a bottle of FilmGuard with my own money and tried it out at Mercyhurst. Then I took the bottle (that *I* owned because I paid for it) over to Cinemark and I threaded up a bunch of old, crappy trailers. Then I called the manager over to that house and ran the film. It looked as bad as you would expect.

Then I said, "Watch THIS!". I whipped out a Kelmar cleaner, pre-loaded with FilmGuard and slapped it on to the projector. I ran the same film again, through the cleaner. Basically, his jaw hit the floor.

He kept asking, "How did you DO that?!" My answer was basically, "Give me $30.00" and I'll tell you." He gave me the $$ out of petty cash. I bought him a bottle of FilmGuard and the boss from Mercyhurst reimbursed me for the first one.

I've been using the stuff ever since.

Like Brad said, "It's an easy sell!" [Smile]

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-14-2004, 10:54 AM:

quote:
There was soundtrack EVERYWHERE. There were places in nooks and crannies with nearly an inch of buildup. We had a few of our technicians in the building fixing some stuff so I had one take a look and we discovered a loose gate that we believe was causing the soundtrack shredding.

Even though FilmGuard will certainly help the situation by providing print lubrication, and help clean off the debris after the damage is done, you should also be sure your projectionists CHECK for any unusual build-up of debris after each showing, which is often a sign of an equipment problem. Typical issues are a burr or rough spot on the gate, excessive gate tension, buildup of hardened gelatin emulsion, "frozen" rollers that aren't turning, or "pinching" the film in the gate or by a pad roller.

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 12-14-2004, 12:28 PM:

Ideally, I think you should have the same ammount of cleaners as new prints you usually get.
We're a 6 screen and we get an everage of 1-2 prints per week. We have 2 cleaners and nearly every print gets a full one week, all shows, cleaning.
This eliminates amount of time shuffling the cleaners around.

We've been cutting our Film-Tech media pads into 3 equal length pieces onto old plastic cores (we recycle too! [Wink]

) which works on films up to 8 or 9 reels depending on length. We used the "mini" pads on National Treasure (2:15 long) and had no runouts or anything. Works great.
The Film-Tech recycling program could be another selling point to, ya get free media or FilmGuard. Woot!

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 12-14-2004, 02:19 PM:

David, I experienced the same thing working at another theater during Episode II. A sprocket got hooked and wasn't fixed until practically one half of the backup SDDS track had been shed all over half of the hallway this particular projector sat in. If it hadn't been for mine and my manager's campaign to get film guard used there, the SRD track would have never made it back from the failing error rates that plagued it for quite awhile.
Used in most any capacity, Filmguard will make your booth run better. Experiment with it and find out where it can help you.

Posted by Jean-Michel Grin (Member # 1360) on 12-14-2004, 04:40 PM:

Sorry missed the right post !

Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 12-14-2004, 09:00 PM:

30 Screen, 5 cleaners

My schedule :

Clean as many new prints as possible when screening.

Keep a cleaner on the new prints all day Friday.

After that, one cleaner spends two days on the 4 largest houses and the rest rotate around the other 26.

Monday put cleaners on 1-4
Tuesday put cleaners on 4-8
and so on...

Every house is cleaned for one full day per week. New prints are cleaned for 2 days per week.

New pads on Friday, re apply FG on Monday and Wednesday.

Just keep it simple so your staff doesn't get confused. If they do, then they will just stop using the cleaners or leave them where they are all week.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-15-2004, 12:04 AM:

I put cleaners on all the new prints on Thursday right from the first time they are run for the screening. The cleaners stay on those prints all day Friday, Saturday and Sunday. On Monday morning, the cleaners are moved to the oldest prints that we don't think are going to be leaving the next Thursday. They stay like that until Wednesday night when they are taken off and reset for use the following day. That way, whoever screens the new prints on Thurdsay night (for opening on Friday) only has to slap the cleaner onto the projector and run it.

This way each print gets three full days of FilmGuard. The more runs, the more even the coat of liquid on the film. The more even the coating, the better FilmGuard works in the long term when the print isn't actually being run through the cleaner.

Typically, under that system, prints would get three full days of FilmGuard every three weeks. Also, because the cleaners are taken off on Wednesday, they are all ready to go Thursday night. Like Chris said: If you make the procedure easier for everybody, the more likely people will keep using the stuff.

Posted by David Yauch (Member # 2754) on 12-15-2004, 04:31 AM:

I heard a rumor once that if you run filmguard during a screening, and something was wrong with a reel, that the film company will make you pay for the replacement if they find filmguard on it. Something about doctoring the film. Is this person just full of shit?

I didn't get to send the e-mail off today, I was WAY too busy with all sorts of crap including mis-aligned rollers shredding SDDS track, non-spinning pad rollers on the sound drum causing massive shredding and sound problems, xenon bulb flicker, and several loose gates causing some sdds snow as well.

Now that I worked west on monday, and east tuesday, hopefully by the time friday comes around and I'm back in the booth I wont have to fix any more of this crap. Hopefully I'll have a response on the filmguard question as well. I did find another dry-web cleaner so that makes 2. Hopefully I can get another 1 as well.

Right now film cleaning is done according to the schedule outlined on each individual build-up sheet that stay with the print as it moves around. The problem is that most projectionists dont dig through all of the papers to see which prints need to be cleaned. What me and the booth manager were discussing was some sort of calendar on each side that will outline what to clean and when, and also requiring each projectionist to initial that they cleaned the films or else it's a write up. We have done this with our booth job lists and it works nicely. Anything would be an improvement from how it is now though. There are 5 or 6 prints in the building with DTS capability that will only run in SR because dts keeps failing. That's pretty sad I think.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-15-2004, 10:30 AM:

quote: David Yauch
I heard a rumor once that if you run filmguard during a screening, and something was wrong with a reel, that the film company will make you pay for the replacement if they find filmguard on it. Something about doctoring the film. Is this person just full of shit?

I don't know about that. I have returned several reels over the years with FG on them. I haven't been charged.

If anybody would know it would be Brad.

Sounds to me like a bullshit story cooked up by some two-bit middle manager somewhere as an excuse not to spend $30. [Wink]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-15-2004, 04:33 PM:

Randy's answer is the correct one. That's about as stupid as saying you would get charged for rejecting a reel if the leaders were cut off.

Posted by David Yauch (Member # 2754) on 12-15-2004, 08:19 PM:

Good. I wanted to verify that that was the case before asking for it. I figured as much, but I didn't want to be the one taking the blame for it if I was wrong.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-15-2004, 09:08 PM:

[Big Grin]

OH YEAH!! Blame it on US, why don't you! [Wink]

Posted by David Yauch (Member # 2754) on 12-16-2004, 12:01 AM:

Well blame isn't going to be an issue is it? [Big Grin]