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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-19-2004, 11:57 PM:
 
In another thread I mentioned screening in native Super 35 format. This is one of those terms that many of us take for granted but I thought it might be instructive for some to show exactly what is going on.

In the past if you had a movie in "Scope" format it most likely was shot with camera lenses not unlike the anamorphic lenses you will use to project it. A wide image is squeezed by a 2:1 compression factor into a relatively square frame. Your projection lens stretches it back out.

Many filmmakers like the 2.39 : 1 aspect ratio but don't particularly want to shoot with anamorphic lenses (for reasons we won't get into here). With improved film stocks it's possible to shoot with conventional lenses, confine the desired part of the image to a widescreen segment of the frame and then have the lab blow up, squeeze, and reposition the image to make anamorphic (squeezed image) prints that pretty much resemble "real" Scope format prints except that they aren't as sharp due to the smaller original negative. The blowup is usually done on an optical printer although it can now be done as part of a digital intermediate as well.

"Super" is of course a misnomer since the format is considerally smaller than the real deal. Super apparently refers to the fact that the full width of the print is used instead of leaving space for the soundtrack.

Since dailies and workprints are contact printed from the camera negative they are "native" Super 35 before the blowup. Here is a framing leader from some "The Matrix" footage I screened. You can see the projectable area and how it fills the width of the film.



The rectangle whose corners the arrows point to outlines the area that is being used. (The artwork in the middle has no significance.)

Here is a Photoshopped example of how that same image would look like after conversion to anamorphic:



Nowadays it seems like as many as 2/3 of Scope format movies are Super 35 rather than true anamorphic. It's also possible to do Super 35 1.85 but that's rare. With digital intermediates however there may be renewed interest. In this case the original negative sees an increase in area so in theory the quality would be improved. For the 2.39 Scope format films it's a substantially smaller film area than real anamorphic and often the image quality suffers as a result.

Edit: Clarification added.

[ 12-20-2004, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: Steve Kraus ]
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 12-20-2004, 01:06 AM:
 
Lemony Snicket's A Series of Unfortunate Events was Super 1.85, FYI. See the December American Cinematographer.

--jhawk
 

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Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 12-20-2004, 01:39 AM:
 
That's really interesting. Is only the leader, or all of it like that? So much of the frame is taken up with those registration targets or whatever those things are, that the image area is smaller than that for 1.85! I always thought the idea of S35 was to utilize the entire frame for image area to somewhat ameliorate the quality loss of not shooting anamorphic.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-20-2004, 02:04 AM:
 

quote: Steve Kraus

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It's also possible to do Super 35 1.85 but that's rare. With digital intermediates however there may be renewed interest.

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Why might digital intermediates revive the process? Because scanning a full-width 1.85 frame and then lasering out to a conventional one (which makes room for the soundtrack, and therefore covers a signficantly smaller surface area) loses less resolution than optically reduction printing it?
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-20-2004, 02:55 AM:
 
Course, wasn't S-35 basically created for shooting a wide screen movie and not to lose the "depth of field" with using regular F/stop lenses, which was "the curse" with anamorphic lenses on cameras-anamorphic lenses not being able to capture the "depth of field" as with the regular(flat)lenses?

BTW: Steve, I check out your site with that screening room, and also the picts of the screening room with those 12, small JBL surrounds around the back half of the auditorium. Very impressive with all of this.

Question may I ask: would you say that if one was to design a home theatre configuration, would this be the most effective way in presenting surround sound in a confined space, as such as the size of this screening room, to not to "localized the surround information", yet carry the larger speakers behind screen, as so mentioned?

thx-Monte
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-20-2004, 06:50 AM:
 
I'm not sure, Monte. I didn't design this installation.

The reason DI (digital intermediate) might jumpstart Super 1.85 is...well basically, why not? If you know you are going DI then why not film composing the picture for full width (presuming you can get cameras with lens mounts centered that way and all lenses cover the full width). I'm not sure how advantageous the slightly greater width is with 2K DI but as 4K becomes more common I'm sure there will be a feeling that the negative "real estate" is paid for so might as well use it.

Without DI it's an optical printer blowup which conveys certain disadvantages and many would feel that it's not worth the bother (and expense) for the small increase in area. Some years back a camera rental house was touting the format claiming that the improvement was such that it made release prints look as sharp as dailies but I kinda doubt that was the case.

William: You can hardly use the entire frame top to bottom when you need a rectangular 2.39 shape. Yes, that is just a framing leader. Many films shoot a roll of focus target and then the editors will attach a dozen or so feet of positive print to the head of each roll of dailies (and of course does not focus the same as film fresh out of the processor LOL). The actual Super 35 footage would most often be full frame images with tons of surplus head and foot room. (In this particular case I was showing effects from 3 different effects houses; I don't recall the frame dimensions.)

I should mention that before DI an easy way to determine a Super 35 release print was the lack of negative splices (white lines at scene changes). The negative is cut and spliced before the blowup is done and since the optical printer camera is only photographing the 2.39 area it doesn't come anywhere near the physical splice so the frame line at scene changes looks like any other frame line. You can sometimes also tell from the leader if the leader masters were applied before the blowup there is a peculiar cropped and squeezed and off center look to them although that's not the case if the leader masters are applied after the blowup.

DI on the other hand often reveals itself, whether on Super 35 or any other format, by certain test patterns you may see in the tail leader although that will vary with who did the DI.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-20-2004, 08:44 AM:
 
Steve: Nice explanation of Super-35.

If a Digital Intermediate is going to be used for color manipulation or digital effects anyway, shooting 1.85:1 using the wider Super-35 negative area makes lots of sense. Since the area on the camera negative that ends up on the screen is 0.945 x 0.511 inches, instead of 0.825 x 0.446 inches, the graininess should be reduced. The added sharpness would likely require a 4K scan to fully appreciate.

http://www.cinesite.com/?1221&0&3821

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2K, 4K or 6K scanning (35mm)and Datacine scanning (16mm) for Look Creation, Color Correction and Digital Answer Printing for all or a portion of Feature Films, Long Form Broadcast, Titles & Trailers. Mastering to all formats --Film, Video (HD, SD, DVD), and Digital Cinema.

THE PROCESS

With Cinesite's Digital Intermediate process, the interactive color-grading and image processing tools of the telecine suite are now available at the film level. The Digital Intermediate process starts with the digitizing (scanning) of select takes or the entire original negative @ 2K, 4K or 6K resolution. Utilizing a Northlight or Kodak's Lightning Scanners, film is digitized to 2K data files and loaded to a Spectre Virtual Datacine for more flexible realtime manipulation.

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A skilled colorist, working with the filmmaker, grades the shots using a Pandora MegaDef or DaVinci color corrector. In addition to the basic RGB color timing controls of the traditional film color timing process, the colorist has the full range of primary and secondary color correction, including the ability to selectively grade individual elements within a shot. The colorist also controls image processing capabilities such as contrast, sharpness and grain. Using "power windows" the colorist can isolate and manipulate very specific areas of the frame to achieve a desired look.

EDITING/TIME FRAME

In creating the Digital Intermediate, an edit decision list (EDL) can be imported from an off-line editor and utilized to digitally conform live action sequences, optical effects and visual effects.

The Digital Intermediate also compresses the traditional time frame required for answer printing and telecine video mastering. A single scan produces a digital master file for both film record-out and for all video formats. Once the film version is color corrected, the video and digital cinema versions will need a "trim" pass, but essentially they are color-corrected.

THE OUTPUTS - FILM, VIDEO, DIGITAL CINEMA

The Digital Intermediate can be output to three formats.

Film: The file can be recorded to a film inter-negative (IN) or inter-positive (IP) using Kodak Lightning laser film recorders. This IN and/or IP will have all the scene-to-scene color grading applied to it, thereby simplifying the answer printing operations in the film lab. And, by producing an IP, one film processing stage can be eliminated. Cinesite can also apply a digital squeeze on the output, thereby producing an anamorphic IP or IN for widescreen release. Our tests have shown that this digital squeeze is substantially sharper than the traditional process of producing an anamorphic IN with an optical printer. Additionally Super 16mm can be digitally "blown up" to 35mm, providing a less grainy image than an optical blow up.

Video: The Digital Intermediate is also the starting point for creating the various videotape masters for multi-format release. Starting with the digital files from the film version, the colorist can quickly re-grade and re-format the files for the various video formats (HD, SD, DVD). This delivery path from digital files to film results in time and money saved and produces a higher quality image due to minimal film handling. The process of scanning film to data also produces higher resolution video.

Digital Cinema: The Digital Intermediate can also be output to a third format - a 24P playback source suitable for digital projection.

END-TO-END SOLUTION

After the Digital Intermediate process is complete, Cinesite also offers digital archiving of the digital files (color-corrected or uncolor-corrected) and traditional film archiving for the film negative and other components. If the client prefers, this can all be accomplished at PRO-TEK, Kodak's state-or-the-art ANSI standard (45%BA Fahrenheit, 25% humidity) facility in Burbank.

SUMMARY

Digital Intermediate depends on more than the hardware and software tools that enable it. The quality and consistency of the output images require a thorough understanding of the end-to-end (film/video finishing) process involving carefully implemented calibration and quality control procedures. With Kodak's color science behind Cinesite's innovation and service, the feasibility of the Digital Intermediate process is now a reality and has been proven in the pioneering "look-driven" films O Brother, Where Art Thou? and Traffic onto today's current releases. Films seeking more conventional color timing or specific fine tuning, such as the ground breaking Conspiracy: The Meeting at Wansee (an HBO film shot on 16mm, scanned once, color-timed and output to both video and film) and Open Range, have also benefited from the Digital Intermediate process.

Every project is unique, yet requires the highest quality images demanded by the filmmaker's vision. With Cinesite's adaptability, experience and sophisticated technology, this goal can now be achieved.

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Eastman Kodak Company announced today that it will concentrate all of its digital intermediate and other postproduction services for the motion picture and television industries in North America here at LaserPacific, a wholly owned subsidiary that the company acquired last October. LaserPacific CEO and President Emory Cohen says that the extraordinary capabilities at Cinesite Hollywood will be centralized as part of LaserPacific in their ongoing effort to focus on innovation and service for customers. The facility plans to open a fourth state-of-the-art digital intermediate suite in a theater environment before the end of the year.

"By focusing our resources, we are better positioned to provide our customers with the latest advances in hybrid and digital technologies and services," says Eric Rodli, president of Kodak's Entertainment Imaging division. "Our primary goal is to enable filmmakers to more easily and efficiently control and manipulate the images they create from pre-production through post-production. The evolution of digital intermediate technology will help ensure that audiences experience films the way they are intended to be seen on cinema and TV screens."

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quote: Christian Volpi

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I should probably know this after being in this business for almost 9 years but why are some prints scope and others flat?

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quote: Steve Kraus

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Some years back a camera rental house was touting the format claiming that the improvement was such that it made release prints look as sharp as dailies but I kinda doubt that was the case.

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From 1957 through today, there have been a number of small changes to the anamorphic projector aperture recommended standards. John P. Pytlak of Eastman Kodak dug through countless back issues of the SMPTE Journal in order to provide the following chronology of the changes to the standards:

The March 1957 SMPTE Journal has PH22.104-1957, the standard for 2.55:1 anamorphic (no optical track), with an aperture size of 0.912 X 0.715 inches. Notice of withdrawal of this standard was in the January 1964 Journal.

The December 1957 SMPTE Journal has PH22.106-1957 for 2.35:1 anamorphic, with an aperture of 0.839 X 0.715 inches. It was unchanged in the September 1964 Journal. The November 1965 SMPTE Journal published PH22.106-1965 still with the 0.839 X 0.715 aperture size.

In the September 1970 SMPTE Journal, a new draft of PH22.106 was proposed, with an aperture size of 0.838 X 0.700 inches, to minimize the flashes at splices. This was republished as standard PH22.106-1971 in the October 1971 issue.

In the June 1976 SMPTE Journal, the two (flat and scope) projectable image area standards (PH22.58 and PH22.106) were consolidated into one standard and renamed PH22.195. The publication of PH22.195-1984 in the October 1984 Journal still had the scope area as 0.700 X 0.838 inches.

The June 1992 SMPTE Journal published a proposed revision, with a scope area of 0.690 X 0.825 inches. In August 1993, the standard was published as SMPTE 195-1993, with the current area of 0.690 X 0.825 inches. So August 1993 is when the two formats became the same width of 0.825 inches.

John P. Pytlak

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So much of the frame is taken up with those registration targets or whatever those things are, that the image area is smaller than that for 1.85!

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quote: William Hooper

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the idea of S35 was to utilize the entire frame for image area

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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One area where Super35/Super 1.85 can do pretty well is in 70mm blow up prints. I remember how much better 70mm prints of shows like "The Abyss" looked versus their 35mm counterparts.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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The grain in Super35 tends to be more noticeable because it is being blown up both vertically and horizontally. In true anamorphic 'scope, you only have the horizontal axis expanded

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quote: Mark Gulbrandsen

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Bobby, you should see Super 35 dailies if you want to see just how good it can look(or how bad). True Lies dailies looked like it was being run in 70mm. Ultra sharp and great depth of field... almost looked as good as VistaVision.

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For the filmmaker, these intermediate films help to preserve all the sharpness, clarity, and color of the original images and carry them more faithfully to the final display screen.

For the laboratory, VISION Color Intermediate Films enable the production of printing elements that are closer in quality to the look of a print made directly from the original negative.

Postproduction facilities will appreciate the features of the VISION Color Intermediate Films, especially improved sharpness for digital output. They're the choice for production of masters for theatrical re-release, video and DVD release, satellite, cable or broadcast TV presentation - or use in any media of the future.

And, audiences will also see the difference - in movies that tell stories with fewer distractions, films with fewer physical imperfections.

KODAK VISION Color Intermediate Films. They're the final link in the motion picture production chain. The bridge that carries all the quality of the original to the final print. And, they're the first intermediate films worthy of the KODAK VISION Film family name.

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quote: John Pytlak

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filming in outer space

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I once read that long ago all release prints were made from the actual camera negative;

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quote: Dominic Case

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Totally impractical with the release print runs today.

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quote: Peter Mork

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Question now is, if you took this job to a modern lab (outside of Bollywood) would they be game or would they give you funny looks, like "you must be nuts, NOBODY does that", etc., along with a song-and-dance about how prints from internegatives look just as good and similar tommyrot?

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quote: John Hawkinson

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While I'm at it, here's another: Looking at Kodak's documentation of the ECP-2D process, it looks like most of the speed-related difficulties involve application of viscous soundtrack redeveloper at high speeds. Is that the limiting factor? Will we see even higher speed printing (with or without a quality change?) with cyan dye soundtracks?

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quote: John Hawkinson

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...at what point does it actually become cheaper to use an IP/IN with high-speed printing than to make all prints direct from the o-neg?

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quote: Dominic Case

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I believe that many Indian (Bollywood etc) films are printed from the original negative.

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quote: Dominic Case

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They tend to go for much smaller print runs (maybe 100 copies) which then go from theatre to theatre. It's a cost-saving thing as well.

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quote: Peter Mork

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Question now is, if you took this job to a modern lab (outside of Bollywood) would they be game or would they give you funny looks

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quote: Peter Mork

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(so if you watch old movies, you can always tell when a dissolve is about to happen because the image suddenly gets a little more unsharp and contrasty).

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