quote:

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6.2 Motor cue
The motor cue shall consist of black circles or clear
circles, printed from a negative which has had four
consecutive frames marked as shown in figures 6, 7,
and 8 for 16-mm, 35-mm, and 70-mm films, respectively.
The position and dimensions of this mark shall
be as given in table 1. Following the four frames
containing the motor cue, there shall be 172 frames
to the beginning of the changeover cue.

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quote:

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6.3 Changeover cue
The changeover cue shall consist of four frames
containing circles of the same dimensions and position
on the frame as those in the motor cue. Following
the four frames of the changeover cue, there shall be
18 frames to the beginning of the runout section of the
trailer.

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quote: Tim Reed

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And why are they doing this?

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To conform to the current SMPTE standard, which has now also been accepted worldwide in the International Standards Organization (ISO). Jess Daily of the UCLA Film and TV Archive has noted the desire for all release prints to follow SMPTE 301-1999 in several recent meetings of the Intersociety Committee for the Enhancement of Cinema Presentation. It matters to those who want "Changeovers Done Right".

quote: John Hawkinson

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Would it be appropriate for you to use your communication channel to inquire about Deluxe's habit of attaching black with a white vertical bar on the opposite-soundside of the image? If you need an example, I'll get you one, but I think there are pictures on this site from prior threads.

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quote: John Pytlak

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It matters to those who want "Changeovers Done Right".

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I did changeovers right before. Now, the new timing will screw it up if I ever get to make another. But I see why they moved the first cue 4 frames closer: to lay the first frame of the first cue on the 11 ft. mark, instead of the last frame. And, closing up the 1-second timing on the last cue is because the MTV generation reacts faster.
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 12-20-2004, 02:41 PM:
 
Tim, I think the point here is that now Deluxe and Technicolor will be consistent with their changeover cue spacing.

--jhawk
 

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Posted by Edward Jurich (Member # 1787) on 12-20-2004, 05:52 PM:
 
Considering how many houses do changeover on first run, there shouldn't be much difference between reels. I used to enjoy those few times when the picture would start going orange and I'd think...HA, he forgot to change carbons. Then the picture would go dim, then out for a few seconds while he installed new carbons on the roll
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-20-2004, 05:57 PM:
 
Does this change apply to Deluxe Hollywood, Deluxe Toronto, or both? If it means that Technicolor {Hollywood, New York, London, Rome} and Deluxe {Toronto, Hollywood} will now both use the same standard, I'd say it's a step in the right direction.

I'm still confused as to why there are two different standards for cues (three, if you count the bizarro way in which 16mm prints from Swank are cued). Why would TV prints require a similar but different standard from theatrical prints?

When adding cues to prints which arrive without them, I was taught to do this:

- tail -
24 frames of picture
4 frames of cues (changeover cue)
168 frames of picture
4 frames of cues (motor cue)
- rest of print -
- head -

Is this the TV standard?

I've also heard from one old-timey projectionist to do this:

- tail -
16 frames (1 foot) of picture
4 frames of cues
184 frames (11 feet) of picture
4 frames of cues

Was this ever a real standard or was this guy just confused?

Oh,and since Deluxe is suddenly so keen on following SMPTE standards, can we get them to start adding longer tail leaders to their prints?
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-20-2004, 07:36 PM:
 
Although there seem to be a couple different standards in effect for C/O cue to end the 168 frames (10'+8f) between cues has been the only standard I have seen on release prints with lab-made cues. 172 frames puts them 4 frames farther apart. Editors cuing their workprints often do it slightly differently.
 

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Posted by Jason Gazaille (Member # 2846) on 12-21-2004, 10:22 AM:
 
I've always worked with platters, so I've hardly noticed cue marks to run prints. But when I build a print with a reel that starts black or fades to black, I use the cue marks to find the frame line. The prints of Kill Bill vol. 2 had notes in them regarding cutting those reels. It said 24 frames from the last cue mark at the end and 12 feet from the picture start frame on the head. I had always thought this was standard for all prints. Should I cut at 18 frames instead of 24 for all new prints next year?
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-21-2004, 02:22 PM:
 
The 24 frame spacing from the changeover cue to the leader was the television leader standard, SMPTE 55-2000, which had been previously used.
 

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Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 12-22-2004, 12:39 PM:
 
SMPTE-55 (SMPTE Universal Leader)
Motor Cue
4 frames
Distance between Cues
168 frames
Changeover Cue
4 frames
Distance to Last Frame
24 frames
TOTAL LENGTH
200 FRAMES
====================
ASA Z22.55 (Academy Leader) and SMPTE-301 (SMPTE Projection Leader)
Motor Cue
4 frames
Distance between Cues
172 frames
Changeover Cue
4 frames
Distance to Last Frame
18 frames
TOTAL LENGTH
198 FRAMES
====================

The dual standards (dueling?) were created in 1965 with the publication of the proposal for the SMPTE Universal Leader.

The television film industry quickly adopted the Universal Leader standard. The motion picture exhibition industry generally kept using the original "Academy" leader standard, adding new information as necessary.

Some laboratories adopted the Universal Leader and cue mark spacing. Others kept using the "Academy" leader and cue mark spacing. At least one laboratory kept using the "Academy" leader but converted to the SMPTE Universal Leader cue mark spacing.

The SMPTE Working Group on Leaders and Cue Marks (L6.38) Preliminary Report (1988 October) "confirmed that virtually all broadcast material is now distributed on tape", "that the parties affected by the leader are almost exclusively theatre, post-production and archival projectionists", and that "the changeover cues vary from one lab to another".

N. R. Olding, Subcommittee Chairman; "The SMPTE Universal Leader for Release Prints," Journal of the SMPTE, 74:34-35, 1965 January.

quote:

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History
For many years the "Academy Leader" was in general use. In this leader the count-down was based on 16 frames of 1 foot of 35mm film, a holdover from the silent films in which the 16-frame spacing was equated in terms representing feet of film or seconds in running or projection time.

In 1950, the growing use of film in television production made it evident that some changes were highly desirable. An SMPTE Subcommittee under the chairmanship of C. L. Townsend was set up to revise the Academy Leader to fulfill the new requirements. This subcommittee, in cooperation with producers, laboratories, projectionists and broadcasters, developed a new All-Purpose Leader, commonly called the Society Leader; it was accepted for trial and has since served the industry. That Subcommittee considered 24-frame spacing for threading cues; but the change in spacing was dropped to avoid confusion.

Since 1951, private and commercial use of 16mm and the use of 35mm and 16mm film by television broadcasters has increased rapidly. In 1958, the requirement for 24-frame, 1-second, spacing of threading cues, to fit in with projection and TV cuing practices, was again brought to the attention of officers of the SMPTE and was passed by them to the Television Committee Chairman, W. T. Wintringham, for action.

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quote:

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Although it was not to become part of the leader, in order to standardize on the seconds basis, the spacing of the motor and changeover cues has been reduced from the present 172 frames to 168 frames or 7-sec running time. The Subcommittee had hoped to reduce the changeover cue to 5 sec but yielded to pleas for more time to permit older machines to reach stable operating speeds.

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