Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: FilmGuard Shortage/Vic5's blamed for shreading

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Posted by Bill Langfield (Member # 818) on 12-21-2004, 10:52 AM:

Recently (about two months ago) I finally convinced a major cinema chain I work for to order the FilmGuard kit for a Cinemaccanica platter and Vic 5 projector (just the one kit for a test - to prove how well the stuff works)

The reason (that they finally agreed) for this order was because (suddenly) over the last 3 months, of 16 Vic 5's at the one location 3 or 4 of the projectors have started shreading crap all through the projector head that bad that, at next lace up, you would swear you must have mis-laced and destroyed the print.

However we are still waiting, as they have been told there is world-wide shortage, IS everyone is having the same problem.

Kodak claim film stock 2383 is not to blame, as it is the one mostly used - They are blaming Vic5's. WHY?
I also work Century CC and JJ and from time to time I get a similar problem, but admitally not as BAD as the Vic5's.

Just for the record, I think AGFA XT is the best film stock.

From what I've been able to work out from a fax sent to us by my boss (MIKE WALSH for those in OZ), Kodak and labs are saying TRY WHAT EVER YOU CAN TO FIX THE PROBLEM!!.

That means HELLO FilmGuard.

"Laboratories,equipment suppliers and stock manufactures have not reached a consensus on cause"
(The quote is from SCREEN INTERNATIONAL) - Never heard of it personally.

HELLO again. Have they tried FilmGuard?

Bill!

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-21-2004, 11:15 AM:

Do you have vic5's with the curved or straight gate?
If it is the curved gate check the alignment with a guage to the intermitent sprocket. I have seen them installed slightly off when done as a field retrofit.
Also check the clearance on the pad roller on the intermitent sprocket I have also seen those so tight they cause terrific dusting issues

Posted by Bill Langfield (Member # 818) on 12-21-2004, 11:32 AM:

Gordon,

All the Vic's have straight gates.
10 of the 16 are 'brand new', that is 2 years old.
The other 6 are 6 years old.

The stuff is all through the gate, above the movement.

I should quantify something.
When print that shreads BADLY is moved to a projector that NEVER shows any shreading, it SHREADS, but not as badly.

Clearly that shows that something is not aligned correctly on the projector gate/trap/intermittant.

But why has this just shown up in the last 3 months and ONLY on Kodak 2383 stock? (Coded K.ODAK)
They admitted to be experimenting with stock.

Oh NO now Im picking on Kodak, at least THEY can't sack me for questioning them, like HOYTS did.

Basically what happened, is that we started tracking whick print was shreading in which projector, but just gave up and decided to order a FILMGUARD kit to prove that it WORKS once and for all.

Bill!

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-21-2004, 11:44 AM:

Also check the clearance on the upper pad roller that it isn't too tight (the stop should be so it has two film thickness of clearance or that the metal rollers hasn't worn down to brass showing (if that has happened they are razor sharp and scrape off stuf very easily as they often get a flat spot in them then

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-21-2004, 07:31 PM:

There is no worldwide shortage. There isn't even a US shortage. We haven't had a period where we have been out of stock (even if for only a few days) for well over a year.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-21-2004, 10:30 PM:

A long time ago I had a problem with a Century SA that shed really badly. Turned out it was because the trap was pressing too tightly on the film. Anywhere film met metal inside the gate, the emulsion was being scuffed off the film. At times the projector literally snowed all over the place. On one occasion, the shit was literally caked so badly the projector had to be vacuumed out every show.

The tech showed me how to align the trap & shoe and the problem went away.

However, once a print has been scuffed like that it will always shed, at least a little bit, for the rest of its life if you don't treat the film. A generous application of FilmGuard and continuous use of the film cleaner in the prescribed manner will clear it up in a few days.

If you don't use FG there will always be some flakes on the film which will get "flung" off every time it goes through the machine.

Therefore, you can tell the higher-ups that FilmGuard is a good (and cheap) way to rehabilitate prints that have seen mild to moderate damage. (i.e.: Pay $30 US for FilmGuard or (potentially) pay thousands to replace prints.)

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 12-22-2004, 12:35 AM:

Once a print starts shedding due to damage, you will be hard-pressed to find a projector that it won't continue to shed in. You aren't going to reverse the damage, but FilmGuard will help reduce the shedding by lubricating the print.

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 12-22-2004, 10:08 AM:

Strange indeed! The only time I've had a straight gate V5 shed was when I tracked them down to the following problems:

- Gate wasn't re-inserted properly. The previous operator pulled the gate and trap out to clean the rails and when he put them back, the trap was a few cm off. You have about 3-4 cm of "leeway" up and down when putting these back in. I jiggle them up and down while turning the screw to find the point where they seat nicely.

- Intermittent shoe/pad roller too tight. This will do it too, but the shedding would be concentrated more around the intermittent than the gate area.

- The projector has a quirkyness about it. On one of our machines, for some reason the gate was kinda quirky, but everything about it was fine. However, if you didn't make absolutely sure the film was flat against the trap before you shut the gate, it would "pinch" the edge of the film beyond the rails and you'd be dreaming of a white Christmas...

Then there's the usual: a sharp burr on the gate rails, pad rollers not spinning, etc. I've certainly seen shedding, but never nearly as bad as you describe, even when there was a major problem.

FilmGuard will help a lot, but if there's a mechanical problem you'll just be putting a bandage on an open wound... or putting a poster over a hole in the wall [Wink]

=TMP=

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 12-24-2004, 09:04 AM:

Have had the odd print that has shed dust but it has been the print. Talkin to a film archivist and restorer, he suggested it might be that the film hasn't been washed fully or correctly when it was printed. This could lead to the film shedding dust.
Have one site with a problem machine that is causing problems with all prints (Vic5) and as it is an old machine have ordered gate parts and will align all the pad rollers and sprockets etc.

A site using centurys complains of the big disney releases causing more dust than any other prints around.
Film guard on the edge makes a huge difference to the amount shedded. You can even hear the difference when it is ran.

Darren

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-24-2004, 09:35 AM:

So why do they call it a trap?

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 12-24-2004, 02:37 PM:

Becauses it closes on the gate like an animal trap. Or, because it traps the film in the gate.

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 12-25-2004, 06:32 PM:

I prefer Gate, especially on a vic 5 as it shuts like a gate.

Its like platter modules, i call them feeders, people call then brains, payout modules, center units and all sorts.
Every site i service has a different name, so when tlaking about them to them you have to throw in a couple to ensure they know what you talking about!

Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 12-25-2004, 06:45 PM:

It's not a preference, it's two different pieces of the mechanism. The trap is the part that holds the film and the apperture plate. The gate is the part which presses the film into the trap.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-25-2004, 08:46 PM:

Interestingly, the entire mechanism is called a "gate" when referring to motion-picture cameras. I've never heard the term "trap" as it applies to a camera.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-27-2004, 09:13 AM:

"Trap" = The stationary part that holds the film steady for projection.

"Shoe" = The moveable part that presses the film into the trap. (Sometimes called "Pressure Plate".)

"Gate" = Both the trap and shoe, taken as a whole.

Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 12-29-2004, 06:01 AM:

The other major problem we have in OZ is that Filmguard costs almost three times as much as is does in the U.S. I have paid between $80-$90 AUS for one bottle of Filmguard so we can't slop it around as much as we would like.So our prints only get cleaned 1-2 times each week as I only have one cleaner mounted on a MUT.The results have still been excellent for us,we have managed to reduce brain-wraps due to static down to 1 or 2 over a long period of time whereas before Filmguard it was almost a weekly event.Brad if we could get it for close to what you guys pay for it I would probably drink the stuff,maybe it would stop my brain from "wrapping"!!!