Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Thrown Print Prevention

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Posted by David Yauch (Member # 2754) on 01-09-2005, 06:44 AM:

So yesterday I came in to work to get some work done on a few of the administrative duties that I've been assigned. During this time, to be a gentlemen, I was helping a new projectionist move a print about 10 feet from one platter to another. The movie was the aviator and we have had tons of problems with reel 5 trying to pop out of this print every time it is moved if you aren't careful. Well as we got to the platter I got my side of the print completely on and backed up a bit so she could have more room. As she was just finishing setting it down she bent the print a little too much and half of reel five popped right out the top of the print. As the print played in about 10 minutes I helped her get the reel down as much as possible, and went and got all of the extra print stoppers I could find for her to stick on the print just in case. When I left I also told her to make sure she stays near the print and checks it often as it plays. Well to make a long story short, either during threading or through the show, the displaced film managed to work it's way up and off the platter. I heard a loud chattering from about 30 yards away followed by the projector alarm. I arrived to see the last few reels of aviator hanging onto the spinning platter by the feed plate. I disengaged the platter, notified the floor manager to pass out the show, and helped her rebuild the absolutely mangled mess of film. My question to you guys is what should I do if something like this happens again? I tried to do what I could to ensure that nothing would go wrong, but somewhere along the line I obviously didn't do enough. I don't really blame myself(as I haven't had to deal with anything like this either in my limited time in the booth) but I feel as if this should at the very least serve as a learning experience. I did all I could think of at the time short of winding the film onto another platter under constant supervision which wasn't an option given the time restraints, but we still have a damaged print. So if you guys can think of anything else I could've done please let me know. I imagine my GM will be wanting to hear what I've gathered from this when I go in on monday. It doesn't matter that I only spent about 10 minutes in the booth all day. I touched the print, I was the more experienced operator, and the print was thrown.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-09-2005, 07:00 AM:

Get a Safety Ring. Stick-A-Poos (yes, even Bevan Poos), velcro wraps and suction cups will only keep the tail from unraveling. Only a safety ring can absolutely prevent a print from being tossed, and when you figure the cost vs buying a few stick-a-poos, you'd have to be crazy not to realize that the poos wear out (thus costing your theater more money in the long run) and do not offer near the protection the safety ring provides.

When you moved that print, did you use clamps? Don't use clamps in the quantity of 3 (which they are sold in). Use them in a quantity of 4, all evenly spaced.

Posted by Kenny Thies (Member # 1551) on 01-09-2005, 09:17 AM:

David,

If Brad's solution isn't an option, (I'm checking into getting one of the safety rings also) I wouldn't trust moving a 3 hour movie with clamps. To make things easier, if time permits, I take off 2 or 3 reels onto a 6000' reel, move the remaining 5 or 6 reels with clamps (put a couple loops of old film around the remaining, not to damage the print) then reattach what you took off on the 6000' reel. May sound time consuming, but usually can be done in 10-15 minutes. It's better than what your situation ended up being.

Kenny

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 01-09-2005, 10:35 AM:

When a print gets tossed it's the feed platter going nuts, yes? Can a print be thrown just by a platter turning at its normal speed when the print creeps off center or only by it zipping up in speed, and the corollary question whether the platters that use takeup speed to also feed the payout are as prone to this? How about a speed limiting system that limits the speed of the payout to within a certain percentage of the takeup. This could be invoked with a switch you so you could defeat it if doing something out of the ordinary where the two would have greatly different speeds.

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 01-09-2005, 10:49 AM:

Steve, I've seen a print get tossed from just being off-center on a Strong platter. Because it's off-center, it will eventually reach a rotation where the area of the print is closer to the payout head than the rest of it. This causes the arm in the payout to "kick" to full speed (because suddenly the film was 3-reels from the head and now it's just 2) and then slow back down. The print then slides a little from the jerk, then a little more...

I think it has to be noticably off-center though (like a reel or two's worth). I've seen shows run through off-center fine before. (although it's an uneasy sight to see)

=TMP=

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 01-09-2005, 11:13 AM:

But presuming it's a regular showing where the opening in the feed film donut is nearly the same as the diameter of the take up donut then something limiting speed differences would prevent it from going significantly faster. Of course this would not be easily implemented if you are only dealing with motor voltages as you are on most platters since the same voltage to two decks with different loads and drive adjustments will produce different speeds. You'd probably need shaft encoders and a much more complex drive setup.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-09-2005, 05:33 PM:

quote: Thomas Procyk
I've seen a print get tossed from just being off-center on a Strong platter. Because it's off-center, it will eventually reach a rotation where the area of the print is closer to the payout head than the rest of it

True. I always tell my people to pull the ring straight up with these Strong platters due to this very thing above.

Plus, with the film being off-center and the brain doing it's thing going full open to full close (why I hate microswitch brains), and with the units being controlled with that variac in the base, the "W" roller assembly is going from almost full drop to travel to the top position which can even throw off lower guidance rollers on the projector with that sudden pull of the takeup platter being in "tune" with the oscillating payout platter with that eccentric film wind feed.

This happened with me with "LOTR" at a theatre I was inspecting. Just about lost that one.

If you have large prints to move like that, just move the entire deck,especially if you have either the Strong or the Christie AW3-R units. Saves on the dangers of print slippage during moves, and the horrible cleanup afterwards.

Don't be "macho man" trying to do miracles yourself.

thx-Monte

thx-Monte

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-09-2005, 07:25 PM:

Anyone who has management that's hesitating at the cost of the safety rings, tell them this: Even if you're in a 20 plex, outfitting 20 platter systems with rings is still less expensive than the cost of one wrecked print.

Posted by Chris Brown (Member # 2800) on 01-10-2005, 02:08 AM:

I actually had a bit of a tail wrap with Aviator a few weeks ago...one of those safety rings certainly would have helped. I'm going to try and talk my GM into getting us a few, as they look like something every booth should probably have.

As for what happened to you David, that definitely sounds pretty ugly. I'm not sure how you guys move your prints, but in my booth we have a cart with platter sized beaver board, and I've never had any problems with parts of the film coming loose like that. Absolute worst that will happen is the ring may pop out a little. But assuming you have to carry your prints (which I've never had to do, mind you), I guess I would have to agree with Kenny's idea of taking a few reels off before moving. A bit of a pain, but like he said, it probably would have prevented that nasty problem you ended up with.

Posted by David Yauch (Member # 2754) on 01-10-2005, 04:00 AM:

We definately do have a print cart, and clamps, and plenty of room to move full platters if we need to. In this situation the print was moving about 10 feet total. In fact, I'm not sure what the hell she did, as the print was about half an inch from being fully on the platter when it looked like she started purposely bending it!(although I'm sure this was not the case, she may be new but she wouldn't deliberately damage film).

As for the film not being centered, it was centered as good as it gets. The center ring never popped out, so I made sure I removed it for her, as to not risk throwing the print off-center. The only thing I can figure is that the film that had popped out must have worked it's way back out while she was threading it or during the show.

I'll try for platter rings, hopefully the cost of the replacement reels will make my arguement more convincing.

quote: Brad Miller
When you moved that print, did you use clamps? Don't use clamps in the quantity of 3 (which they are sold in). Use them in a quantity of 4, all evenly spaced.

No, a sister theatre of ours stole both sets of clamps when they came to get a print, and we haven't gotten them back yet.

Looking back, regardless of how preventable the film damage was had she just stayed near the print as I advised, we should've just moved the whole damn platter in the first place. Regardless of whether or not I'll be blamed for this(which I'm sure I wont), I learned my lesson. On the upside, I think we had a 2nd print of aviator leaving monday, so i'm hoping they were thinking and tore the damaged print down and re-built the other.

EDIT: Another question, where can I get safety rings from? I see an authorized dealer list for the film guard, but nothing for the rings.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-10-2005, 05:19 AM:

The dealer listing on this site is good for the rings as well. You can buy them from virtually any dealer except Cinema Products International.