Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: When Is DTS Going To Fix Distribution Problems

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Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 01-11-2005, 10:43 PM:

Does DTS not know about the countless dramas we have with getting discs for a film, or getting them ON TIME???? ..... or do they not care? Or is it just film distributors like FOX or BVI or UIP or ICON that don't give a damn .... they get paid anyway, right? If it is the distributors at fault, then perhaps DTS needs to spend some time and money on programs with distributors to ensure the timely distribution of THEIR product. Could DTS possibly be unaware of the disregard for their product by distributors? If I sound angry, it's because I am!

And before you DD lovers get on your soapbox about how I wouldn't have this problem with DD ... I don't care.... that's not the point here.... DTS is a GOOD system..... It is SUPPOSED to be on the film.... I SHOULD have the discs. It may be the local Australian distributors who don't care about DTS..... it may be some shipping guy in a US warehouse who hates his job enough not to do things on time....... Are the film's producers slack in preparing the DTS track? ... I don't know .... but somewhere in the chain, SOMETHING IS WRONG!! This happens time and time again, and it is getting to the stage where we as exhibitors need to stand up and say, "Well fine .... but if we can't get the discs, we will not screen the film." Perhaps then we may see a change. Just today we were told that there was a delay in getting the discs made for 'ELEKTRA' ..... ooooo yeh, that CD duplication is a tricky business and takes a lot of time [Roll Eyes]

And while I am ranting.... why doesn't ICON in Australia care about DTS on their films? When I enquired about the lack of discs with 'Passion of the Christ' ... I was told they didn't have time to get them in the country ...... ummmmmm... hello! Wasn't this a highly anticipated release? .... Wasn't it going to take a shitload of money? If they REALLY couldn't get the discs for the release date ..... then a few days late would have been better then NEVER!! Come to think of it.... I can't remember many ICON films that DID come with the discs..... [Frown]

Anyhow, the main point here is that the problem has been going on for a long time..... and nobody can give a real answer as to why..... or why it hasn't been fixed.

*rant over*

Posted by Chris Trainor (Member # 9) on 01-11-2005, 11:05 PM:

DTS should make the ISO's available for download for situations like yours. You could download the images and burn them yourself.

Of course, that's about as likely to happen as George Lucas dumping digital and go back to film....

--Chris

Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 01-12-2005, 12:02 AM:

I believe that idea has been brought up before ... only to be cut down due to copyright/ legal issues ...... ummmm WHAT???? What am I going to do with the images, other than BURN THEM TO PLAY IN MY CINEMA ...... As far as I know, software playback on a PC has not been acheived at this point..... so using the images to add good sound to a cam-corder pirate is rather a mute point ....... and besides... if they really want them, they will just get the discs.... and probably have more luck in doing so than I seem to [Big Grin]

But now since it had been brought up again.... with broadband everywhere these days... why can't DTS offer a secure web site... subscription based even ..... that could get me the discs I want when they aren't in the box.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-12-2005, 12:49 AM:

DTS isn't in the distribution business. They are in the sound reproduction business. It's up to the film companies to make sure the disks are distributed with the films.

I myself feel that missing disks should be treated just like a missing reel. If you left out reel 4 of a movie, you'd hear about it soon enough; so why are theatres who keep the disks not penalized???

Even though this isn't DTS's problem, you should send a copy of your note to them. Maybe they'll make a few phone calls where they count.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 01-12-2005, 09:54 AM:

This has been a problem from the get-go for DTS. The answer, if duplication is THAT complicated an issue that it can't be accomplished in a timely fashion (they can't duplicate 4000 CDs as quickly as they can duplicate 4000 prints? What horse's ass is running THAT system?), the answer surely is distribution through the internet. And yes, if DTS isn't in the distribution business, then certainly TES is. There is no reason why TES and or any other can't setup such a website for emergency distribution of audio files when, for whatever stupid reason, the disks are not ready when the print is.

Well, of course there is a reason. Money. But money works both ways. If the exhibitor really understands that it will cost him money when he is at a competitive disadvantage because the distributor isn't fulfilling his end of the agreement but is is leaving him with only an analog track playback, then he might start demanding monetary retribution. THEN you will see things turn around.

Like you said, Mike, if the major theatre chains started complaining loudly to TES that they are missing a reel....(Hello, TES, yah, we are missing a real of ELECTRA....oh, yah, it's the reel that contains the freakin SOUNDTRACK)...it would ripple back to the distributor, the studios and finally to whatever labs and duplication services they use. Problem is, you need a BIG chain or a LOT of smaller exhibitors to really complain; the exhibitor has to get up in arms rather than just sit back and say, oh, well, we'll just play the analog track. After all, the exhibitor is paying a rental fee to be able to present a big release like ELECTRA in digital sound. If the distributor doesn't supply the appropriate disks, that could actually be breach of contract, especially since the exhibitor can easily claim that he is paying the same rental rates as his competitor down the block who IS able to open that same engagement in digital sound. If the distributor is withholding an element of the film so the theatre can only play analog, the exhibitor is being put at a decided competitive, economic disadvantage. I can't see how that wouldn't be a contractual issue for sure.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 01-12-2005, 09:59 AM:

This topic was recently talked about with the film release of "Garden State" from Fox Searchlight Pictures. When I started Press screenings in April of 2004, the print had SRD / DTS / SR as it's sound formats. No discs at the time, but later got a set of discs. When the film was released in August of 2004, Steve Scott posted release info.

quote:
The print I handled had DTS timecode, but no discs. No DTS logos on this print either.

Then 15 days later Scott Norwood posted.

quote:
I've handled two prints of this and both had DTS timeccode, but neither had disks. There's a thread on this somewhere that I can't find right now which boils down to something along the lines of "the distributor didn't license DTS for the US prints, thus no prints should have disks."

I got discs because I do Press screenings and if the discs are available at the time. Also note not all studio print come with DTS discs, only a few studios put them with their prints. (Universal, MGM)

I've had brand new prints that studios had just picked up for distribution that had sound formats on the end credits but were not the sound formats on the print handled.
Another problem you might have with DTS disc distribution is versions of the film (Domestic or International or country), with censorship.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 01-12-2005, 10:11 AM:

I understand that even though formats can be on a print, occasionally contractual anomolies can create weird situations. For example, I got a print once that had SDDS tracks but a not in the can which said that the titled was not licensed for SDDS playback and should not be played in that format.

If a title is not available in any of the three digital formats, this information should be made absolutely clear to the exhibitor at the time it is booked who may have some, but not all of the format hardware to play it. They distributor should offer that information; i.e., "this title can is only licensed for Dolby and/or SDDS digital. We have not licensed it to be played in DTS digital." This way and exhibitor who hopefully understands that he is at a decided disadvantage and can negotiate a better rental deal....or buy all three formats for all of his screens.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 01-12-2005, 10:22 AM:

Due to very compressed post production schedules, audio is many times an orphan. DTS disks made under license can be turned around in 2 - 3 days for production of thousands of disks. It is then up to the "rights holder" of the film and distributors, both studio controlled or independent, to get them in the hands of end-users. Newer products such as the XD-10 with hard drive capablity help if you only have one disk copy to share but the issue again is the distributor.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-12-2005, 12:41 PM:

DTS should add internet capability to the XD-10. You could plug in a keyboard, type in the title you need, the machine would search the database and download the appropriate files into the unit. No extra copies floating around, no chance for extra copies to be made either.

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 01-12-2005, 02:10 PM:

Either that, or just include the discs in those wonderful new "spacer reels" that Technicolor is using. (Forgive me if it's not possible since I haven't seen one of these so I dunno what they look like).

When Karen used to post here, her picture showed the old "half-reel" round plastic cases the discs used to come in AND a strange-looking yellow reel. Was that reel also some kind of a device to hold the discs? That would be the best. Just include the bright, yellow "REEL 0" (or to be more creative, the "SOUND REEL") in the cans and charge people print replacement if it's not returned.

=TMP=

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 01-12-2005, 02:38 PM:

When disks are added to a shipping case there should be a large sticker affixed saying

"This print consists of 6 film reels and 2 DTS disks. Call us (TCD, ETS, DTS, whatever) immediately if you receive this print without disks whether or not you need them as your theatre will be charged if they are missing. Make sure all reels and disks are back in the case before this print leaves your theatre to avoid being charged."

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 01-12-2005, 04:10 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley

DTS should add internet capability to the XD-10....

Heck! They could dispense with distribution of disks all together!

Make sure your player is plugged into the network. Play the film normally one time. The computer inside the processor checks the serial number of the print. A confirmation dialogue comes up on the screen on the player. Say, "Yes", or, "No", to the confirmation dialogue. The player downloads the digital file(s) that it needs. No fuss! No Muss!

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 01-12-2005, 07:36 PM:

It's inconceivable that these files are not downloadable. Not to mention that, more than 10 years after the format's introduction, DTS has not aggressively moved to SOLVE these disc distribution problems. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-12-2005, 07:51 PM:

...then with us theatres that still have the old DTS-6/6D "dinosaurs" that DTS have just about abandoned, we'd have to forget about the usage of a 16bit ISA NIC card to plop on that 386/486 momboard for network usage, then adding the software for the system to find that NIC card.

Plus the owners don't want to even think of upgrading to the X-10's, even though I've told them that SCSI drives are getting a bit hard to come by if they want to save money when the old "caddy" drive start to fail out, unless you get the DTS upgrade kits, which is still the bucks to get.

Would be great if DTS had a link to be able to download those *.iso feature image files for the DTS encoded movies. Be pretty slick to have and easy to do.

They should do this for the trailer discs - have a site of trailer *.iso files for each of the trailers that one can burn to a CD for their needs.

-Monte

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-12-2005, 09:13 PM:

I have offered the service free of charge countless times to dts, and they are not interested. As I've stated before, it could be set up in such a way that only "authorized" people could download the files as authorized by a dts rep, and even then it could be set so that their authorization was either permanent, or on a 24/48 hour timeframe, and for any or all movies. Easily the last 6 months of image files could be stored.

The problem is dts isn't interested. That "security" line is just that, a bs line to dodge the real issue. [Roll Eyes]

Sorry bub, but he who buys dts is saving a couple of bucks to have to deal with all of these unnecessary problems. People SHOULD just buy Dolby Digital and be done with it. I know that's not what you want to hear, but it's reality.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 01-13-2005, 02:16 AM:

All the "DTS Rocks" slogans and shouting from the rooftops that DTS is a loss-less compression system (read: better than Dolby's Pretty Damn Compressed system) is nothing more than hot air BS if they can't get the damn disks to the theatres to play on their big-deal loss-less system.

And tell me if I am missing something here, but has there been some huge black market demand for pirated SOUNDTRACKS? I mean, were there guys in the theatres with DAT recorders under their trench coats instead of camcorders prirating the movie soundtacks that we've been missing? Has the MPAA ever claimed that copyright infringement of SOUNDTRACKS is costing them BILLIONS in lost revenue (oops, sorry, didn't mean to give them any ideas)?

And if someone DID get their hands on a pirated copy of a soundtrack, would that stop them or anyone else they sold it to from going to see the movie? Come on, this argument sounds like it's being pulled out of a suit's arse hole to cover a major, glaring inadequacy in the DTS system.

To be fair to DTS, perhaps this is not really their fault. Perhaps it's really just the studio suits' dastardly way of quietly abandoning this format altogether and leaving the exhibitors who invested in the hardware hanging out to dry (as if studio execs would loose any sleep over doing something like that). If the studios are trying to walk away from the added hassle of that additional process of disk duping and distribution and intentionally letting DTS die, that will really go a LONG way to gain exhibitor's trust to get them to invest in OTHER digital technology....like D-Cinema.

Scenario -- two years after Mr. Exhibitor invested in a spanking new DLP system, he's on the phone trying to wrap up a deal to book the hottest new release of SPIDER MAN 6. Distrib: "Oooohw, gee, I AM sorry, but all our releases after last month's BOURNE AGAIN SUPREMACY, including Spidy6, are now only available in the new AB-DLP (Awesomely Better DLP) system. Man, we really expected you all would have made the $100,000 upgrade by now." Exhib: "Beep you, you beep beep beep beep beep....and the horse you beepin road in on too"

Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 01-13-2005, 06:18 AM:

Hi Matt
I just had the same problem in getting discs for Ladder 49.Luckily I have XD-10's so I drove 50klms(4 times)to our nearest competition,borrowed the discs,loaded them onto the XD-10 and then returned them straight away.Don't think that the XD-10 is the be-all and end-all of machines they have plenty of bugs that need to be ironed out by DTS-and we have only had ours for one month!Try connecting one to a CSP 1200 and see how long it switches formats correctly.
By the way if you have a look on the DTS web site there is a section where you can complain to DTS about not getting discs.I don't know whether that will help or not but they may contact the distributors and stir them up a bit.(and PIGS FLY TOO!!!)

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-13-2005, 06:30 AM:

Wouldn't it have been much easier to just copy the discs on site at the other theater? I mean, virtually every laptop these days has a cd burner in it, and surely someone would've had a burner if you didn't.

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 01-13-2005, 12:11 PM:

If the availability problem is widespread, I'm surprised no one has used a P2P file-sharing solution to address the problem.

I'm not saying that I would condone such an activity (because I am not aware of the ins and outs of the legal issues involved), but I'm surprised that such a process doesn't exist...

(After all, it's just doing the disc copying that's being done now between theaters, but I know that bringing up any kind of "Internet" distribution causes many to lose control of the common sense portion of their brains.)

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 01-13-2005, 11:58 PM:

Frank said, "All the "DTS Rocks" slogans and shouting from the rooftops that DTS is a loss-less compression system..."

DTS does not claim to be lossless compression. The XD10 can support lossless compression, I believe, but that is not the norm.

I'm not sure how much relevance Australian distribution problems have to other localities...

--jhawk

Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 01-14-2005, 05:39 AM:

Brad
I'm in the process of trying to get an arsehole we found selling pirated copies of the Incredibles in court-3 weeks before it was released over here so I really didn't want to burn DTS discs.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-14-2005, 06:08 AM:

I understand, but don't you feel there is an honest difference there? You have a print from the studio and are licensed to show it. That jackass bootlegger was blatantly stealing from the studio and profiting on it. I believe there is a huge difference between the two. [Wink]

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 01-14-2005, 11:56 AM:

Matt, have you tried to contact DTS about your woes?

Contrary to others opinions here, I have found DTS to be helpful and interested.

I've owned XD-10's now for about 6 months, no problems at all...so far.

We had a slight problem in the beginning with receiving Trailer disc's, a call to DTS straightened it right out.

I had some confusion about the proper setup, called DTS tech support, left a voice mail, 30 minutes later I was chatting with the head design engineer who was very helpful and forthcoming.

Your mileage may very.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-14-2005, 12:12 PM:

I can vouch similar experience. We put in an XD-10 about 18 months ago. We had a problem with it when it was one month past warranty, but an email to DTS followed by a short phone conversation fixed the problem at no charge.

As for the disk problem -- we've probably only suffered the "missing disks" problem maybe once every year or less. In most of those cases, a phone call to ETS, Technicolor or DTS has resulted in a set of disks being overnighted to us. So I wouldn't call it a gigantic deal-breaking problem, but I still believe the idiots who don't return the disks should be paying through the nose and/or getting taken off service from the appropriate film companies.

Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 01-15-2005, 05:56 PM:

"DTS isn't in the distribution business. They are in the sound reproduction business. It's up to the film companies to make sure the disks are distributed with the films."

If you were making a product for any industry ... that was been treated with disregard by distributors ... AND was competing with other similar products .... wouldn't you as a company be VERY interested in implementing programs to ensure the problems were fixed?

As for complaining of a lack of time to prep the discs .... ummmmmm..... how long does it take to make a movie? Wouldn't arrangements for production and distribution dates be organised months in advance?

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-15-2005, 06:26 PM:

quote: Matt Close
If you were making a product for any industry ... that was been treated with disregard by distributors ... AND was competing with other similar products .... wouldn't you as a company be VERY interested in implementing programs to ensure the problems were fixed?

Of course I would but the film companies pay DTS for the disks, then DTS has no control over them, so how can they "implement programs?" The film companies are the ones who are dropping the ball because they don't penalize theatres that keep the disks. This is because they only think presentation matters on the opening weekend.

As for your last question -- the editing and sound mix often isn't finalized until very close to the release date, so lots of prints AND lots of disks have to be produced in a big hurry.

Posted by Alexander Smith (Member # 1769) on 01-16-2005, 09:04 AM:

Sorry I've come in to this a bit late, but...

In the third posting in this thread Matt Close says:

"As far as I know, software playback on a PC has not been
acheived at this point"

Actually, yes it has. I have a plugin module for WinAMP.
It is a 113152 byte file "in_APTX.dll" which identifies
its self to WinAMP as "APT-X100 DTS Decoder v1.0".

I consider it a curio, and nothing more. To use it to
convert the complete audio for a feature would be very
time-consuming I think.

Sometimes, when making up a feature (supplied with DTS
audio discs) I will listen to the first reel or two of
sound just to get an idea what the film is about.

Alex.

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 01-16-2005, 09:46 AM:

Even if a pirate DID rip the auio off of DTS discs to add to his newly-bootlegged mess, wouldn't there be sync problems? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the audio is essentially 24fps while the bootlegged video is 30fps? Wouldn't the sound eventually begin to drift out of sync? So someone would have to go to A LOT of trouble to add DTS Digital Sound to the blurry, keystoned, cropped, shakey, contrast-lacking, flickering video copy... [Smile]

Can't DTS claim that it owns the physical property (the discs) but the studios own the content? That way DTS themselves could go after the theaters who don't send the discs back. In fact, isn't this already the case? For example, Technicolor distributes prints for Disney. If you don't send the print back, Disney doesn't call you, Technicolor does. If you never send it back, Disney doesn't send you a bill, Technicolor does. (Or do they?)

It amazes me at the dedication of the people on this forum. Whereas most people who call themselves projectionists would just throw their hands up in the air and say, "Oh well! No discs, this is running in SR, people won't care!" Here we have people driving over 200klm, at the fault of this flawed distribution network, just so that they can give their audience the best possible presentation, regardless of the ineptitude of whoever allegedly controls these discs. You should be PROUD! [thumbsup]

=TMP=

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-16-2005, 01:51 PM:

quote: Thomas Procyk
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the audio is essentially 24fps while the bootlegged video is 30fps?

If it's been professionally telecined, a film to NTSC video transfer is technically 30fps (60hz interlaced scanning), but the 3:2:2 pulldown makes it simulate 24. So in NTSC territories a pirate might have a chance of syncing up ripped off DTS audio to their camcordered video: assuming, of course, that the projector in the theatre they videoed the film from was running at a rock steady 24fps.

No such luck in PAL and SECAM countries, though. Because it scans at 50hz, there's no need to faff about with the 3:2:2 pulldown - you just increase the film speed to 25fps and scan each frame twice. This typically takes 3-4 minutes off the running time of an average feature. So if you tried to combine that with 24fps audio, it would indeed drift out of sync.

Edit: I'm being monumentally stupid. Even if you camcorder a film in PAL the film is still running at 24fps. You'll just get interlace flicker on the picture. Again, if the projector speed is accurate, you might have a chance of syncing a DTS ripoff. But I doubt if it would be precise enough. But even so, picture and sound quality was never high on the pirates agenda...

[ 01-16-2005, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: Leo Enticknap ]

Posted by Phil Blake (Member # 2012) on 01-24-2005, 06:32 AM:

Similar to Matt We experience the same problems on the West Coast, I would safely say we only get DTS discs for 2 out of every 5 DTS coded prints. Some turn up late , usually when the print has finished running in the DTS equiped cinemas , or the discs never turn up.

I agree with Steves reply to this thread , make distributors more accountable to what they are supplying us.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-24-2005, 12:41 PM:

quote: Thomas Procyk
Here we have people driving over 200klm, at the fault of this flawed distribution network, just so that they can give their audience the best possible presentation, regardless of the ineptitude of whoever allegedly controls these discs.

The biggest hassle I ever went through to get disks was when we ran a re-release of FORREST GUMP. There were about 6 or 8 theatres in our area all opening it on the same day, and prints were being couriered in on Friday by air from Salt Lake City. We got our print around 3:00 but it didn't include disks. This was not long after we'd gotten our system and I was determined that we'd show the movie in DTS. So after building the print, I called every other theatre that was opening the film that day (none of which had DTS at the time) and found a set of disks in Laurel, about 110 miles from here. We only had about 2 hours before showtime -- not enough time to go get the disks and come back.

After making arrangements with the theatre in Laurel to get their disks, I called my sister who works in Billings (which is 10 miles this side of Laurel). She went and got the disks from the theatre, and then drove halfway to Forsyth where I met her at a small town called Custer and picked up the disks. I arrived back at the theatre 5 minutes before showtime! [thumbsup]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-24-2005, 10:15 PM:

quote:
arrived back at the theatre 5 minutes before showtime!

And it took your XD-10 about 8 minuites to load it in right....... [Wink]

.

Mark

Posted by Tao Yue (Member # 836) on 01-24-2005, 11:41 PM:

On the general issue of DTS not caring about their theatrical distribution: From their most recent quarterly statement (Yahoo and Edgar Online carry it at: http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/doctrans/finSys_main.asp?formfilename=0001104659-04-035017&nad=) , we see that for the three months ended September 30, 2004:

Revenues from Theatrical business: $5.1 million
Revenues from Consumer business: $10.8 million
Gross profit from Theatrical: $2.4 million
Gross profit from Consumer: $10.4 million
Income/Loss from Operations from Theatrical: $-0.9 million
Income/Loss from Operations from Consumer: $5.5 million

Look at how stark the difference between theatrical and consumer is. The joke about the theatrical release being an advertising campaign for the DVD seems to apply to DTS as well, being in theaters builds its brand for getting people to spend more for DTS-capable receivers.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 01-25-2005, 10:39 AM:

If and when, Dolby becomes a public company, which should happen soon, you will probably find that consumer licensing is the more important dining car on their gravy train [Wink]