Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Looking for an Automation

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Posted by Matt Hollis (Member # 2954) on 01-14-2005, 03:14 PM:

Greetings, there is a good possibility I am going to be working as a projectionist in a new theatre soon. I am needing to know what a good reliable automation system that can be installed. Four cues are needed:

Start Button:

Motor On
Lamp On
Sound to Mute
Lights Down
Slide Projector Off

Show Start Cue:

Douser Open
Sound to Digital

Presentation Start Cue:

Sound to DTS if Used

Credits Cue:

Lights Up

Show End Cue:

Douser Close
Sound to Mute

Film Run Out:

Motor Off
Lamp Off
Sound to Non-Sync
Slide Projector On

Thanks Guys

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-14-2005, 03:23 PM:

Your sequence needs modification. Do you really want to shut off your non-sync and slides while the leader is running down? And do you really want to have the xenon blasting on the douser during the entire leader run-down? (This assumes you use generous lengths of leader, for the best interest of your presentation.) Ideally you want something more along these lines....

START button:
*motor on

START CUE (on leader):
*xenon on
*house lights dim to half
*after X second delay - audio switch/fader up/douser open

FEATURE CUE:
*lights down

CREDITS CUE:
*lights to half

SHUTDOWN CUE:
*xenon off
*audio switch to non-sync
*failsafes run motor until tail out

Also other things can be done with the better automations such as actually FADING the non-sync and such. The CA21 is the most versatile automation on the market, and it's got a fantastic computer interface. There are reviews on the site.

If you're on a budget, Christie's 3Q system I believe will do everything you need to do.

Congratulations for seeking out an automation with an actual start cue. Few people seem to look for that and on cheaper systems without that feature, the projectionists end up turning the projector motor on and off to get the leader precisely cued down to the start position, thus wearing out the projector sooner. Those that thread "where it needs to start" end up using short leaders, which causes the first thing to hit the screen to commonly be dirty from all the nearby handling.

Posted by David Favel (Member # 1125) on 01-14-2005, 05:37 PM:

START CUE (on leader):
My preference would be;

*xenon on
*house lights dim to half
*after X second delay - audio switch/fader up/douser open

FEATURE CUE:
*lights down
*fader up

CREDITS CUE:
*lights to half
*fader down

CA21 anything is possible, though from reputation CA100 is as good, perhaps better

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-14-2005, 06:39 PM:

Actually all the mentioned automations are fine units, some do more or less than the other will.

Since your basing your needs on 4 cues why not use the EPRAD Ultimation.... Its system is based on 4 cues total and they can be spread out to about 30 different functions. I've had great reliability with literally hundreds of these in service. Only two failures since they were introduced back in the mid 80's that I can remember. The FP-350 cue detector is also about as good as cue detectors get and very reliable. One very important thing about them is that they are also based on Semiconductors that will not become unavailable any time soon. Built in obsolescence is really about the first thing to consider if you are going to install any type of computerized automation and the Ultimation is not affected in the least by semiconductor obsolescence. EPRADS parent company TL Industries has much experience at building robotic control automation for for many of the largest auto makers.

Stay away from the C.E. TA-10 automations. Although they are somewhat flexible that flexibility has to be built in during the installation as programming is done with a technician installed an internal diode array and sometimes many add on relays.... what results in a largish system is a kludge..... While the CA-21, Ultimation, and others are programmed via simple front panel controls and LCD screens.

Also take a serious look at the larger Kelmar Deluxe electro-mechanical automation units. These old bullet proof workhorses are extremely flexible and the most reliable of all the stuff out there.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-14-2005, 07:12 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
The FP-350 cue detector is also about as good as cue detectors get and very reliable.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Thanks for the good laugh Mark. I needed that.

Kelmar makes the most reliable cue detectors hands down. With the CA21 I just get their single head cue reader and move it to scan over the inboard SDDS track, but they do have a 3 cue version as well. Those never, ever, ever, ever, ever miss and don't require the constant cleaning that the FM-35 does. As far as the Eprad failsafe, buy tons of cue tape because you will be replacing the cue strips quite often!

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 01-14-2005, 07:30 PM:

I agree with Brad [Eek!]

that the Pennywise automation is the most versatile automation system. I don't know the Christie version CA21, but I understand it's the exact same system as the Kinoton version EMK1 , except for the front plate. I also like the remote control software which I again have only encountered in the Kinoton version, but it was obvious that it is the same as for Christie, because you could switch between graphical representations of the CA21 and EMK1 front plates.
But it is pricey. In our new location, we are going to use the DMP1 , which is also a programmable automation, but with more basic functions. There is also a remote control/monitoring software for this automation.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 01-14-2005, 07:38 PM:

So Brad, are you saying I should sell my FM-35s and get Kelmars?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-14-2005, 07:53 PM:

No Phil, I wouldn't waste the money on doing that...since you're never gonna get off your butt and set up your equipment anyway! [Razz]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-14-2005, 10:07 PM:

quote:
As far as the Eprad failsafe, buy tons of cue tape because you will be replacing the cue strips quite often!

Ha, you must be thinking of something else Brad. The FP-350 is a non contact proximity cue detector with less rollers on it than the Kelmars have. I was installing Kelmar prox type detectors when you were still running 16mm in Jr. High School..... before they were reliable or had the cue stretcher. The Kelmars are fine and we actually use them more often than the FP-350's. You're right about them not missing a cue but neither do the FP-350's. Both in fact use a similar cue stretcher curcuit. The FP-350's have had zero (0) problems for me, not a single failure at all and zero (0) problems with cue tape. The FM-35's suck big time. The sensors on them seem to suck the dirt right in for some reason.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-14-2005, 10:20 PM:

Proximity detectors existed 20 years ago?

I used those Eprad things with the mega-evil Strong CNA-150 automation systems from hell for about a year. We had to replace strips every 2 weeks to ensure they would read. What a piece of junk. I'm not sure if I have ever hated an automation quite the way I did that one.

(Apparently your mileage will vary if you are in Utah! [Razz]

)

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-14-2005, 10:35 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
Proximity detectors existed 20 years ago?

Yes, about twice that long ago. A WW-2(or perhaps even a bit earlier) spin off. There was a problem with a bad batch of sensors used in the Eprads that I have heard of but I never did end up with any of the bad ones. That may have been your problem though. We typically get em straignt from EPRAD not Strong. I typically use the FP-350 to replace existing contact type detectors because it directly interfaces and they make up to a three cue version.

Mark

Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 01-15-2005, 12:28 AM:

I've worked extensivley with the FP350 proximity cue detectors. While they do have a few problem, overall they were pretty reliable. The biggest problem that I had with them eas the sensor would actaully break off and come in contact with the film and just register all of the cues in about 30 seconds.

the other problem that we had rarely, is that the rollers would move a little away from the sensors, or vice versa, and not read.

After having worked with the Kelmars for a month or so, I would say that simplicity is better and the kelmars are more reliable.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-15-2005, 02:31 AM:

Yea...FP-350's are the KING!! .. just keep the sensors dusted once in a while...

3Q's for Christie are great also...being a cue based automation, instead of software based like the CNA-100's.

-Monte

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-15-2005, 07:42 AM:

The first proxs I worked with were the 2 wire normally closed contact blue cruzet sensors and that was a long time ago

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-15-2005, 08:27 AM:

Ah, least we forget the Panalogic CA-2000 automation. Quite possibly the most flexible one of them all. It talks serial as well as contact closure too

Panalogic CA2000

It too has a software interface for complete complex monitoring. Note the Pennywise and the Panalogic both original in Austrailia!

I too agree that the Kelmar is THE cue detector for NEVER missing cues.

Steve

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 01-15-2005, 07:17 PM:

Once set up the TA-10's work fine, no problems and can be used to do very complex shows if your bright enough. The pre-wiring isn't hard to work out for what you need the unit to do, and only takes 5 mins to do.
As an event bsed automation it works well, and have very little problems with the 20 odd ones I look after, and the main benifit is that you need very few cues added to your print.

Lacing to a count down head leader is what all good projectionists should do to ensure you check your pic/sound sync lacing. So having the film at 8 in the gate to start a TA-10 is not a issue at all.
So many people dont realise the importance of this and the loop sizes, also do you ever check when making up fils if the reels have been rpinted in sync correctly?

Darren

The FM-35/37 is the most used sensor I have seen in the UK and work well. If your projectionist can put the cue on the right side of the film. Yes you need to clean them, but don't you clean the projector, the cue detector is part of the projector film path!?
For a sequence (very cue heavy) automation system the CA21 is very good and works a treat, not got any problems with that at all. Have some working with FM35's actually!

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-15-2005, 09:12 PM:

quote: Darren Briggs
Lacing to a count down head leader is what all good projectionists should do to ensure you check your pic/sound sync lacing. So having the film at 8 in the gate to start a TA-10 is not a issue at all.

Your definition of a good projectionist is pretty screwy. Lacing with "8 in the gate" is actually what BAD projectionists do. It means you are handling the film very near to the first part that is going to be projected to your audience. GOOD projectionists thread far ahead of that on the leader, and either motor it down (using the motor switch only one time) or preferably the automation does it for them.

Lacing with "8 in the gate" gives no guarantee that the loop sizes are correct either. I don't know who's butt you pulled that one out of, but it stinks. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-15-2005, 09:46 PM:

quote: Darren Briggs
Once set up the TA-10's work fine, no problems and can be used to do very complex shows if your bright enough. The pre-wiring isn't hard to work out for what you need the unit to do, and only takes 5 mins to do.

Why do inside a unit when you can do it on the front panel. I always describe the TA-10 to customers as flexible inflexibility. What ever automation scheme you come up with is pretty much wired in permanent.... fine only for strip mall theatres.

We had alot of failures of FM-35's in southern Utah, finally found that even though they have a rated wide input voltage range of 12 to 28 volts that the internal regulator does not really like the higher end of that DC voltage range. Adding an in line 16 volt regulator to feed the existing built in wimpy one seems to have solved the problem.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 01-16-2005, 01:16 AM:

The TA10 can be quite easily used with a show start cue if required.

It's the same principle as running on interlock but using one machine. Place your 'Interval' cue approx 13' from where you want the shutter to open (you need to experiment with the exact placing).

Then with your long lacing leader, with cue, you can stop as far back as you like. When you start the show press the interlock button first followed by the start button. The projector will start, with motor only, then the xenon will strike at the cue followed seven seconds later with the show going on screen.

I used this method all the time as we had a long 60' leader before the start of the feature so we could stop easily if needed at the request of the manager.

This of course required that you did not have other projectors on the same 'Interlock zone'. In my case we had four screens so it was not a problem, one on each zone. Screen one on Zone one, Screen 2 on Zone two etc etc. When we did run interlock we just set the interlock zones accordingly as required.

How do you check sync when making up a print on the bench?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-16-2005, 02:15 AM:

quote: Darren Briggs
So having the film at 8

He's an good ol' fashioned changeover, 2k reel operator. For we used to put the "8" in the aperture plate so when the second cue hit, the first couple of frames would be in the second's machine aperture when we hit the dowser/sound changover switches-either foot dowser and lever changover (the Motiograph style) or the wall buttons (the Simplex style).

Those earlier movies, back about 40 plus years ago, when dialog was right during a reel change, the changeovers were taught this way, or the dialog was skipped a bit.

"Old school" projection - a dying art.

If you're gonna check your proper loop size, especially lower loops size, put the frame with the word "picture start" in the aperture box, then lace down to where you can have the line where the words "sound start" be directly across the optical reader. This is your standard 21 frame sound delay for sound sync to picture.

Course, this is speaker pict to sound sync setup. And as others have mentioned with longer auditoriums is to lengthen that distance to 22 frames, for sound travels slower than light.

-Monte

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-16-2005, 04:00 AM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
He's an good ol' fashioned changeover, 2k reel operator.

Sorry Monte, but you're wrong. Anyone threading like that is a bad ol' fashioned changeover, 2k reel operator. All of the good ones add extra head and tail leader whether running on 2k or large reels and motor down to the the precise start frame needed for a perfect changeover given the ramp-up speed of the incoming projector and operator reaction time, not necessarily "8 in the gate". That's old geezer/"I'm just doin' it the way I wus taught" school stuff.

Ken - nice tip on the TA10. I was trying to do exactly that with the CNA150s from Strong, but we found that shows liked to randomly stop when we ran like that. Good to know it will work reliably with the TA10s.

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 01-16-2005, 04:01 AM:

monte, make that 20 frames, not 22.

ken, we only just started using that "interlock" method on our ta-10's about a week ago. 13' is exactly the figure that works for our centurys and fm-35(7)'s. just have to start the film rolling a minute before actual showtime now.

carl

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-16-2005, 10:00 AM:

"Sorry Monte, but you're wrong. Anyone threading like that is a bad ol' fashioned changeover, 2k reel operator. All of the good ones add extra head and tail leader whether running on 2k or large reels and motor down to the the precise start frame needed for a perfect changeover "
I don't approve of using the motor to jog up and down
Extra leader is a good idea but I insist on operators threading with Pix start in the gate then inching down to there required start distance

Posted by Matt Hollis (Member # 2954) on 01-16-2005, 12:54 PM:

Alright, thanks guys.

The 3Q and TA-10 seem to be pretty good. Since I need 4 cues though I'm gonna need a QX-10 too, right? The FM-35 is a good detector btw.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-16-2005, 04:52 PM:

Extra leader does no good if you are threading on the PIC START Gordon. It's too close to the first projected frame on the roll. Presentation suffers from handling that close.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-16-2005, 07:25 PM:

"Extra leader does no good if you are threading on the PIC START Gordon. It's too close to the first projected frame on the roll. Presentation suffers from handling that close"That has not been my experience at all
The extra leader will prevent cinching and since the film never touchs the floor then nodirt is an issue

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-16-2005, 07:43 PM:

I'll agree extra leader, even if you thread ON the countdown (or PIC START) will help with creasing and cinching, but that's mostly due to the seam in regular reels and isn't an issue with clip-together core-based reels.

Still though, handling is handling. Every platter theater that has just enough leader and an 8 second start suffers from excessive dirt on the first 30 seconds of their show. Likewise, every changeover house I have ever seen that does not add extra leader and thread up then motor down to the start frame also suffers this. Yes running film cleaners on every show can seriously slow this effect down, but sooner or later little tiny marks and specs of dirt DO show up when the film is being handled a mere 10 feet or so from the first thing to hit the screen. This damage is quite obvious at places that don't run film cleaners, or only run them "when the film needs it".

I have ran prints back before I knew better with only the lab leaders reel to reel, and indeed after several showings the dirt buildup started to appear...and no the leader never touched the floor, I was just threading about a foot ahead of where the film needed to be cued for a proper changeover, then jogging the motor by hand to the exact frame. Adding extra tail leader solves the end of reel problem, but extra head leader makes no difference if you are still threading ON the countdown area.

If the big complaint is that the extra leader is too expensive, use extra trailers. If then the big complaint is that there are no frameline markings on trailers in darker shots, then email me and I will sell you some mega-cheap recycled leader with frameline markings on it that I make in-house here. I can run off clear, white, blue, red, green or fullcoat. (In fact my theaters use it as interlock as well as regular threading leader. That generic blue stuff is way too overpriced!)

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-16-2005, 10:29 PM:

I use extra leader and motor down...surprisingly, I haven't blown through motors.....I don't bang the projector with full-starts/full-stops/full-starts....etc.

The result, no dirt and no human hands mucking with the leader. Also, it helps if one does misthread...all they've ruined is scrap leader that is easily replaced (we recyle old trailers into scrap leader and scrap tails).

The last foot or so is inched into place by hand on the motor (or the inchng knob, if so equipped, depending on projector).

Steve

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-16-2005, 10:38 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
I use extra leader and motor down

..interesting, and I was taught not to motor down leaders..hard on starter contacts in the motors. Always hand spin the motor's flywheel a few frames for thread check.

Oh well...and never was shown to add junk film to the beginnings of leaders...

I knew that I would have that backwards...20 instead of 22 frames advance for long auditoriums.

Live and learn sometimes..that's why we have these discussions..

-Monte

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-16-2005, 10:42 PM:

Note the difference Monte...by motor down, I mean the motor comes up to speed...not "bump the motor" as the old-timers used to. In effect, you fire the motor one extra time. "Bumping" the motor effectively has it stay on its start windings is indeed a bad practice. Then again many of these motors are now 3-phase with inverters so some of the old common wisdom is changing.

Steve

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-16-2005, 11:06 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
so some of the old common wisdom is changing.

Thx as always for these pointers to learn from. Will be useful as well. - Monte

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 01-17-2005, 10:07 AM:

quote:
quote: Brad Miller
"Proximity detectors existed 20 years ago?"

Yes, about twice that long ago.

Kodak suggested the use of proximity cues ("capacitive cuing") for motion picture printing in a November 1956 SMPTE Paper: "Scene-Change Cuing in Motion-Picture Printing" by Lovick, Seemann and Stott, Volume 65, pages 594-598.