Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: USL JFM20 Format Card Won't Select Digital

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Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 01-23-2005, 01:12 PM:

I have a JFM20 that won't select digital from the front panel, nor from the automation inputs. Before I start chasing this, has anybody struck the problem before ... common perhaps? ... And could save me some time [Big Grin]

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 01-23-2005, 01:36 PM:

Yes, it happens when the power supply starts to fail because of the loose standby button. I don't know why this affects format selection, but we had a unit which would sometimes lock up in one format (I don't remember which) and you could see that some of the voltage present indicators on the PS were out. Resetting the PS cured the problem. It is a well known fact that the standby buttons can cause problems, that's why a lot people simply bypass them.

Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 01-23-2005, 02:20 PM:

Maybe that's what caused it ... because the supply did have the problem when I powered it up ... (unit is 2nd hand) ..... BUT, I had already tried the JFM20 in another JS200 with the same fault [Frown]

So it has to be a fault on the format card itself .... any more ideas anyone?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-23-2005, 07:53 PM:

The format card is about the most failure prone card in the JS series. USL has now discontinued production of these cards and almost all others for the JS series and only repaired cards are available on an R/A basis. Also rip out that POS power supply switch and put in jumpers in place of it, it'll make things alot more reliable.

Mark

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-24-2005, 03:54 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
POS power supply switch and put in jumpers in place of it

Couldn't agree more...done a few of those to safe face.- Monte

Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 02-14-2005, 06:56 PM:

Well .. I am back to this card again .... Mark, have you ever repaired one yourself? If so, some advice?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-14-2005, 08:12 PM:

I would sujest doing a repair exchange the cmos switching is touchy and you need a proper desoldering station

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-14-2005, 09:10 PM:

Matt,
Gord is correct on this, best to send it back in for R/A. The only part you could replace is the bypass switch. I've done that several times. The format cards among other things are some of the most unreliable pieces to ever come out of USL. We seem to do an RA on at least one or two a month! More so in the summer when its really dry.....

Another thing to note.... USL has discontinued supplying any "NEW" cards for the JS series. There may be be a few of some cards left in stock that are avialable but after they are gone its strictly an R/A type of thing. There are I.C's in them that are now obsolete. USL has supposedly bought enough semis to be able to service them for some time to come but for those that still want to upgrade their units its just too bad..... and I really believe they really only have digital reasons for doing so. Makes it difficult for me to ever want to push any USL product at all in the future! With the gazillions of these units out there perhaps some other company will develop replacement cards for them. Sheesh... Even Dolby respectfully supports its old CP-50, and with new cards still available and Smart can still provide repair and parts way back to its first few products produced!

Mark

Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 02-14-2005, 10:19 PM:

Mark & Gord ..... thank for your replies ...... Mark, the situation for these cards does sound a little dire to say the least. I hope 'someone' produces replacements for them.

Clint has kindly e-mailed me and offered to send schematics.... but they will be of little help if I can't get the chips [Frown]

Thanks anyway guys .......

Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 02-15-2005, 02:48 AM:

If anyone can help me ... I need to know where to get a chip or it's equivilent.

On the JFMP-20D board (the little board that plugs into the JFM-20) there are three chips that appear to handle the logic for two control lines each. They are marked IDL1 9444H

Any ideas anyone?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-15-2005, 06:09 AM:

You might want to contact Ray Derrick at Panastereo as he could probably service it I beleive Panalogic does complete booth service so that would include brands they don't build
One other item on those I have had to replace are the optofets

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-15-2005, 08:05 AM:

Mark,

USL had been planning to discontinue the JS series for years...I suspect that they truely ran into low semiconductor supply levels before it forced the issue. I would think that even if the JSD processor wasn't ready, they would have had a short-fall and couldn't supply processors. I think it just took longer than expected to get a working replacement processor out...digital or otherwise. They have been been toying with some sort of replacement processor for something like 10-years now. Lets face it, the JS series was pretty much unchanged since its inception with the 5/95 series. The dreaded format card(s) seeing the biggest changes and the addition of SR capability.

They probably should have brought out a low cost analog processor though to have something in addition to the digital one. Then again, most any IC except the real common ones are bound to have a short production life. What was the reason for SMART to go though the recent MOD changes? Not just the move to off shore but obsolescence in rather short order. Anyone that is planning on making electronic stuff should be warned about not using Analog Devices...they will discontinue a chip as it is being brought out.

Steve

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 02-15-2005, 08:55 AM:

The USL series had a good run of 20 years. The new JSD Series seems like a winner based on the demo at the factory a couple of weeks ago...it has a nice feature of using a low cost PDA to do set-ups and checks.
Smart had to redesign their MOD series due to the key supplier discontinuing a chip. Smarts's policy is to have enough reserves to maintain a customer's purchase for 10 or more years and indeed there are only one or two products which they can not support in the large range of products they have produced in the 26 years they have been around [beer]

They did not go "off shore" to produce the present MOD 8, they where concerned with quality control, so the unit is made in the U.S.A. [Cool]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-15-2005, 08:58 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Then again, most any IC except the real common ones are bound to have a short production life.

Agreed on the obsolescence issue but there are also other ways and means to get around this. Designing a small micro circuit equivelent to the I.C. with the use of other available I'C.s is a possibility as well as designing all new cards, the latter would generally be a big advantage as per performance gain. And these are really pretty simple cards too!! With the tens of thousands of these units out there its plain stupid not to. Alot of our customers wanting to upgrade their units are pretty possed off at USL right now and the likelyhood of them purchasing other products from USL is about nil. With the number of JS units out there the ploy of semicondictor obsolescence is not any real excuse in my book..... As per the Smart problem keep in mind that there are very few MOD 7 processors out in the field as compared to all of the JS units and Smart will also be able to repair them for many years fown the road. The thing about the Smarts is that they already have everything in them and they have also already replaced it with an equivelent priced unit that exceeds the original by a mile. I guess for me its just the sheer scale of the USL abandonment and the pissed off customers that come to mind..... There are alot of JS units in this area and alot of these customers may well be buying some one elses processor down the road because of this.

Mark

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 02-15-2005, 09:23 AM:

Jack Cashin, the man behind the curtain at Ultra Stereo, said that when he designed the JS series times where easier and most of the product was designed by himself. the JSD involved around a five person group and changes as time marched on during the project to create something with a long shelf life. People like Jack at Ultra Stereo, Norm Schneider at Smart are trying to take care of present needs but are firmly looking at future opportunities.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-15-2005, 10:37 AM:

Several points Mark you should bear in mind
The chip in question doesn't have a bearing on the issue of this topic which a format card not switching. It is mostlikely related to the cmos logic which is generic and if one has proper desoldering tools can be feild repaired
The chips in question are a particular VCA/Level detector that is found in many products that has been discontinued by the manufacturer It was part of the SSM line of audio processing chips It was used in many high end audio processing devices used in both broadcast and consumer products all which face the same problem the source is gone

If one thinks this is unreasonable then why is it that I can't get a replacement LCD screen for my laptop that is only 3 years old the OEM maker of the screen is no more and since it turns out to have had a high failure rate there is no stock
In this case I have never had to replace one of the vca chips (except for a issue with highvoltage some one connected to the fader line) (not me by the way) in question so repair is usually related to the surrounding circuitry which can be troubleshooted

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-15-2005, 12:51 PM:

quote: Gordon McLeod
The chip in question doesn't have a bearing on the issue of this topic which a format card not switching.

Gord,
That issue was pertty well delt with a few posts ago. He has several choices as a result of the thread. I was answering Steve's post and this thread is a good place to bring up this issue. There is no real reason except to sell new JSD-80 digital processors as to why USL couldn't come up with newly designed replacement boards for those boards that require the obsolete chip. Heck, at least the basis for any new circuitry already exists in the new processor... all they need to do is take some of that design and create a new DSP matrix and NR cards and the format cards could be drastically simplified as I'm sure you would agree. Not only is it a logical thing to do but it is also good buisness to support customers that have supported you over the years. Dolby seems to have this philosophy with older units.

quote: Gordon McLeod
If one thinks this is unreasonable then why is it that I can't get a replacement LCD screen for my laptop that is only 3 years old the OEM maker of the screen is no more and since it turns out to have had a high failure rate there is no stock

As for your laptop just buy a used one on E-Bay for the part you need. You have more laptop problems than anyone I know of [Razz]

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-15-2005, 12:58 PM:

Often it isn't viable to transpose technologys and in many cases not very simple or cost effective to do
again they do repair the cards for you which is more tan one can say about several cards from the double d ranch

Posted by Clint Koch (Member # 1179) on 02-15-2005, 06:46 PM:

USL did not discontinue the JS-series to be able to sell the newer JSD-80L. In a perfect world we would still be producing the JS-series along side of the new JSD-80L. The new JSD-80L is priced less than the JS-series with more bells and whistles. USL still supports it's original CS-series that were manufactured in the early 80's. We will continue to support the CS-series, JS-series and JB-2 series for as long as possible. If anyone has questions on this you may e-mail me direct if you wish. Also Gordons response above is very accurate on the cost effective and transposing of technologies reasons.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-15-2005, 07:40 PM:

quote: Clint Koch
Also Gordons response above is very accurate on the cost effective and transposing of technologies reasons.

Clint,
I certainly understand the obsolescence thing!! No question there as I come from a Broadcast background where everything RCA made for decades was obsoleted overnight by the take over of G.E. when they shut RCA down. The big problem I have here is that there are tens of thousands of the JS units out there and supplying "upgraded cards" as other manufacturers seem capable of doing seems like plain "good buisness" to me. Were there just a few thousand units that would be different and impractical.

Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-15-2005, 10:27 PM:

Again as I assume clint can confirm the chip in question has not had a failure issue to my knowledge so repairing them is not a big issue
Look at most of the cards for a cp200 logic are off the list and are repair exchange only
UltraStereo has provided excellent service for all there products including the CS serries processors in the past just as most manufacturers

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-15-2005, 10:44 PM:

Gord,
Where did I criticize the chips reliabilities, USL's repair abilities, or Dolby's? I don't recall complaining about them and I really have no complaints about them. You seem to miss the entire point that it is easily possible for a manufacturer to provide updated/upgraded cards if one wants to..... The quantity of those units in the field alone justifies it being done.

Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-15-2005, 10:48 PM:

One could also then justify making replacements for many items in the market place after there useful life span
Some of this is a decision a manufacturer sometimes has to make where to draw the line
I doubt if the Return on the investment would be worth while as the R&D into that would be very large

Posted by Oscar Neundorfer (Member # 458) on 02-16-2005, 06:54 AM:

Steve said:

quote: Steve Guttag
Anyone that is planning on making electronic stuff should be warned about not using Analog Devices...they will discontinue a chip as it is being brought out.

I absolutely LOVE Analog Devices. I absolutely HATE Analog Devices. How's that for contradictory statements?

AD makes some of the finest chips one can find. Their performance is usually first rate. I would almost always choose AD parts for my designs....

EXCEPT.... THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO KEEP A CHIP IN THEIR LINE FOR MORE THAN A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.

They have obsoleted so many chips in my designs over the last few years than I have lost count. The original MOD6 DSP matrix used an AD DSP processor chip that went obsolete one year after its introduction. OF course we could make a last buy, but then who wants to sit on inventory for possibly years.

And of course, the one obsolete chip that bit so many of us was the SSM2120P. This is (was) a dual channel level detector/vca ship that was at the heart of our NR system. Also, it was sometimes used in volume control appplications. The MOD6 used 5 and the MOD 7 used 6 of these parts. The MOD IIC uses 2.

We made a last buy of several thousand of these parts. They are now pretty much gone. If you can find surplus stock, the price is exorbitant.

I am now in the process of re-designing the NR around a different chip made by a company called THAT Corporation. It is definitely not a drop-in replacement.

I had to make a decision for a part used in the MOD 8. I ended up using an AD part because I could not find anything else that was exactly what I needed. Since this is fairly new part for AD, I will keep my fingers crossed that it will not disappear too. At least not in the near future. But like Steve said, "...they will discontinue a chip as it is being brought out." Sometimes you just can't win.

Another problem with chip obsolesence is that many through-hole parts are going away and are being replaced with surface mount parts. While they are functionally the same, they obviously will not just drop in where the old parts were.

SMART will continue to make every attempt to keep even its older models running, but as parts stock becomes scarce, this will become more and more difficult to do. Sometimes a card can be re-designed to replace an older card that uses obsolete parts, but this is not always a viable option.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-16-2005, 07:30 PM:

quote: Oscar Neundorfer
I am now in the process of re-designing the NR around a different chip made by a company called THAT Corporation. It is definitely not a drop-in replacement.

Oscar,
Just keep an eye on THAT Company so Analog Devices doesn't also absorb THAT line of chips THAT are allowing you to redesign THAT noise reduction card..... THAT would suck!

Still you guys do get a gold star for keeping your stuff going and for designing new cards to keep older units alive and to allow upgrades. Keep up the good work!

Mark

Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 02-25-2005, 04:53 AM:

Well, anyone with a similar problem with USL equipment will be happy to note the following .....

Before I had even attempted to contact USL on this problem, Clint from USL had seen my post and e-mailed me. Good service [Smile]

We then traded e-mails on the problems I had and he provided many helpful suggestions. Upon my request I was also provided with technical documents on the cards AND this was all done is a very timely manner. It was almost as if Clint had nothing better to do than answer my e-mails [Wink]

... which I am sure is not the case, but I must say I certainly appreciated not having to wait for days to get replies as has been the case with other companys.

In the end I found the fault, which did turn out to be an IC. Clint kindly sent me a couple of replacement chips and also some spare relays for my EQ cards at no cost.... AND they were accross the Pacific virtually before I could even blink!

Kudos to Clint and USL for the customer service.