Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: The 5th Great Big 70mm Festival

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Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 02-03-2005, 08:16 AM:

The upcoming widescreen festival in the UK reminded me that the American Cinematheque in Hollywood, CA has been running their 5th annual 70mm festival this last couple of weeks. The festival screenings at the Egyptian in Hollywood have already concluded, but the festival continues at the Aero in Santa Monica.

The 5th Great Big 70mm Festival

Wednesday, February 2, 7:30pm
Lord Jim

Thursday, February 3, 7:30pm
Lawrence of Arabia

Friday, February 4, 7:30pm
2001: A Space Odyssey

Friday, February 4, 10:30pm
Baraka

Saturday, February 5, 3:00pm
Newly Restored Todd-AO 70mm Print
Doctor Dolittle

Saturday, February 5, 6:00pm
EYE-POPPING and OVERWHELMING: 70 MM SHORTS PROGRAM
Die Internationale
Skies Over Holland
Fanny’s Wedding
A Year Along The Abandoned Road
A Place To Stand
Plus: as time permits, a motion simulator/ride film or two, including the SimEx short A Trip to Mars at 30 frames per second with digital sound.

Saturday, February 5, 9:30pm
Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines
Director Ken Annakin in person.

Sunday, February 6, 5:00pm
In Ultra Panavision 70 mm
It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World

Played at the Egyptian but not repeating at the Aero:
The Agony and the Ecstasy Newly restored Todd-AO 70mm print
Patton
Playtime
Hello Dolly!

[ 02-03-2005, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: Paul Mayer ]

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-03-2005, 09:13 AM:

I would like to know where the print of a place to stand came from

Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 02-03-2005, 01:08 PM:

I was there for Hello Dolly last weekend. Great presentation, great sound. Perfect volume level, and even perfect focus throughout.

I was shocked that the print overall and especially the changeovers were very CLEAN and had no cinch marks. This is the same print that has been playing all over the world for a few years now, right?

However, someone along the line has messed it up [fu]

Reels 4,8, and 10 were damaged. (damn changeover houses [Wink]

)

The damage I saw on reel 4 was some light standing/moving black and green scratching on the far left of the screen only <within 1 foot of the left masking> These occured all along the left hand vertically, moving downward.
It also had a very fine black line in the center of the frame that appeared midreel for 5 minutes, then went away, and appeared again for the last 3 minutes of the reel ?!?!

reels 8 and 10 had very light black lines on the far left, again, within 1 foot of the left screen masking only. Just imagine the "pad roller scratches" we normally see on the right side of a trashed 35mm print, then you'll get the picture.

Any ideas what type of 70mm projector would cause the above problems? I really hope the theatre responsible got a HUGE bill. [puke]

Why the hell are the studios letting blind people or people with shitty equipment near the 70mm? One or both of these factors must have led to "Dolly" getting messed up. Perhaps the studios should require that along with the print, the theatre has to rent someone to come out and inspect the machines and operator before they agree to rent them a film!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-03-2005, 08:42 PM:

quote: Dan Lyons
Any ideas what type of 70mm projector would cause the above problems?

In the wrong hands the two U.S. built machines most likely to damage film..... in order of most likley.... Simplex 35/70, Century JJ. Mainly because..... there are too many tight turns that have to be threaded to the perf so film is not damaged, and there are too many sharp objects located just off the proper film path.

Now if we could just get The American Cinemateque and Paul Rayton to take that festival on tour to other big cities once or twice a year to the remaining 70mm houses alot more people could re-live those wonderful films!! Showing them exclusively on the west coast is truely a waste.

Mark

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 02-04-2005, 02:44 AM:

And I'd volunteer to go out with that road unit, or cover shifts for Paul and crew back home at either the Egyptian or the Aero... [Cool]

Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 02-05-2005, 03:26 PM:

I heard the Aero trashed a new print of "Lawrence of Arabia" the other night and had to stop the show for a while. Any one care to give any more info about what happened? [uhoh]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-08-2005, 12:15 AM:

Oh that's just lovely. Was it one of the reissue prints from 10 or so years ago, or literally a brand new print?

Posted by Jonathan M. Crist (Member # 413) on 02-08-2005, 02:48 PM:

I know that there were a couple of new LOA prints done in the fall of 2002 for the re-issue at that time. The one that I saw at the Senator in Baltimore (I got a tour of the booth while it was running) was 70MM DTS only - no mag sound.

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 02-09-2005, 01:14 AM:

quote:
Played at the Egyptian but not repeating at the Aero:
The Agony and the Ecstasy Newly restored Todd-AO 70mm print
Patton
Playtime
Hello Dolly!

Actually, all 4 were repeated at the Aero the weekend of January 28-30.

quote: Dan Lyons
Reels 4,8, and 10 were damaged.

That's really a shame. I got to see the new print of Hello Dolly the same week it came out of the lab in 2002, and it was flawless.

quote: Dan Lyons
I heard the Aero trashed a new print of "Lawrence of Arabia" the other night

When I saw the brand new print of LOA the day AFTER it debuted at the Cinerama Dome at the Arclight in 2002, it was COVERED with those thin black vertical scratches inward of both the left and right hand side of the screen. Through the entire movie.

Posted by Tao Yue (Member # 836) on 02-10-2005, 12:57 AM:

Eight prints of Lawrence were struck in 2002 for the 40th anniversary release, see the following post:
http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005516;p=2#000016

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-10-2005, 07:44 PM:

quote: Dan Lyons
I heard the Aero trashed a new print of "Lawrence of Arabia" the other night and had to stop the show for a while. Any one care to give any more info about what happened?

I talked to Paul today and the above quote is not even close! Paul himself will be by in the near future to tell about the 30 second shutdown. Paul is one of the very best operators in the country and not a frame of film was lost.... And these are DP-70's... not some wanna be 35/70 toy projector.....

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-10-2005, 08:53 PM:

The report I heard from someone in the audience was that "sprockets were seen on the screen and then it shut down for a brief intermission". (Not exact verbage, but more than close enough for the purpose.) DP70s may be nice projectors, but I don't see how they wouldn't damage a frame of film if the sprockets were seen on screen. [Confused]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-10-2005, 10:40 PM:

This is something that Paul needs to elaborate on himself in this thread and he said he will. He told me the intermission was but 30 seconds long! With Pauls repitation I thing I lean towards believing him over one of the patrons. Sometimes a short stop in the middle of a film can seem like an eternity to a viewer....

If one has a pile up in a DP-70 or minor accident there is ALOT more room to pile up large amounts of film with out it turning the film into accordion pleats. There are also no really tight gate loops and the rollers and shafts are very forgiving of film having to move laterally on them. DP-70's are very forgiving of being threaded with too large or too small of loops. too large it runs noisy, too small it just limits your framing range. Also in a properly operating DP the top loop trip lever will shut down the projector before the operator can even get his finger on the button. A big advantage when running older prints!! If you make way too large of top loop the machine won't let you run it at all as it will keep tripping the loop lever and shutting it down.

Mark

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-10-2005, 10:43 PM:

No one is disputing whether it was 5 seconds, 30 seconds or 5 minutes. Also, I still fail to see how if someone saw sprockets projected on the screen what this has to do with loop sizes. [Razz]

BTW, Paul has not registered yet, so this may take longer than you are expecting.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-10-2005, 10:46 PM:

I've seen his posts here before but its been a while. I know exactly what happened, but lets let him tell what happened. Its his booth......

Actually he made his last post on 12-08-2004. I think you may have some other Paul mixed up.....

Member Number: 1817
Registered: 08-06-2003
Posts: 17
Location: Los Angeles, CA , USA
Occupation: chief projectionist, Egyptian Theatre, LA
Interests: movies, travel, bicycle riding

Mark

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-10-2005, 10:48 PM:

Does he go by a middle initial?

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-10-2005, 10:51 PM:

Let me first say that my experience with 70mm projection is limited to running four shows on a pair of rather elderly JJs in a temporary setup.

Having said that, one of the things that I noticed right away was that stopping the film mid-reel seems like it would be almost asking for sprocket damage or a film break (with acetate film) due to the higher speed and heavier weight of the reels, when compared with 35mm (I didn't have floating-hub reels for these shows--perhaps they make a difference). I didn't actually test this theory, however.

Can anyone with more 70mm experience comment on whether or not the film can be safely stopped and re-started in the middle of a reel? (This is just a general question--not a specific comment about what may or may not have happened at the Aero.)

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-10-2005, 10:57 PM:

Brad,
Paul H. Rayton.... But a quick search for Paul Rayton turned up he last post in the Equipemnt For Sale Threads.

Scott,
With properly set up reel arms(clutches) its not a real problem on any projector except on machines with Jack rabbit startups. Double reels of 70mm might be a bit of a problem though and I don't reccomend it. Of course floating hubs make for more reliable operation where ever that much weight can be encountered. I've run tons (literally) of old 70mm acetate on ancient JJ's that I used to own. Those were always equipped with 35/70 Kelmar arms and worked fine. Even the original Century clutches work fine if they are properly maintained.

Mark

Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 02-18-2005, 03:54 PM:

any new info yet?

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 02-18-2005, 04:17 PM:

Having screened over 30 screenings to the public over the last 2 years (3 screenings this week alone - http://www.uk70mm.com/programme/sheltersky.html ), and checked what must be nearly 150 reels of 70mm, I can assure you you can stop and start a reel as much as you like if your projector is running off an inverter with a good slow start and a ramped down stop. Even when running froma platter you can stop and start as much as you want.

Running on either Vic 8's, DP70's or DP75's as mentioned above, 70mm can be treated just like 35mm film.

Keep and eye on www.uk70mm for UK 70mm screenings.

Darren

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-18-2005, 05:18 PM:

Basically what Darren said.

Scott, the JJs ramp up/down too fast to be able to truly happily be stopping and starting mid-reel without a little "operator assist" just to be safe. You can however run off of a platter and stop and start all you want, or control the ramp up/down speed on the JJ with an inverter. Just be careful when you are using a platter and decide to restart towards the end of a really long movie (like Titanic). Because you could have 200 pounds of film on the platter, the takeup mechanism could "take off" enough to crash. In this instance, just have a hand on the edge of the deck to slow it for the first couple of seconds and you will be fine.

I do disagree that "70mm can be treated just like 35mm film." 70mm is more fragile than regular 35mm film and has more stress put upon it during projection. As such the gate components in particular must be precisely aligned to prevent damage, and extra attention must be given towards the magnetic soundtrack to ensure it does not get damaged or partially erased during projection. Hopefully Darren said that comment in reference only to stopping and starting. [Wink]

...and where is Paul with the report on how the sprockets of the film was viewable on screen, yet somehow no film was damaged? [Confused]

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 02-18-2005, 06:32 PM:

Yes Brad i was refering to the actual starting and stopping of the film in the projector.

I agree, some platters are a little less than smooth at starting.
Cinemeccaninca are maybe a little too slow and is safer to give it a help up to speed on prints like 'Lawrence' Part 1, otherwise you will never have a print thrown on one of these.
Kinoton are a little snatchy at times when re-starting.
I've not run 70mm on a strong, wouldnt like to really. Hate them on 35mm.

People who damage 70mm prints should be shot, mind you damaging a 35mm print is un-acceptable.

Darren

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 02-19-2005, 02:38 PM:

quote: Darren Briggs
People who damage 70mm prints should be shot...

...and before that, taken to a cellar for a close encounter with The Gimp, closely followed by one of Brett's Filmguard enemas. Then you can shoot 'em. [Wink]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-02-2005, 02:42 AM:

Ok Mark, over 4 months have passed and Paul made a post today in another forum, so he is indeed alive and well with internet access.

Where's this explanation he promised of how sprockets can be seen projected on screen without damaging a frame of film? It is a sin you know to damage 70mm film. [Wink]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-02-2005, 09:29 AM:

quote: Brad Miller
Ok Mark, over 4 months have passed and Paul made a post today in another forum, so he is indeed alive and well with internet access.

Where's this explanation he promised of how sprockets can be seen projected on screen without damaging a frame of film? It is a sin you know to damage 70mm film.

Why not e-mail him and ask him your self? Actually its a sin to damage ANY film...... [Roll Eyes]

Mark

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-02-2005, 02:18 PM:

Because you were the one who made the hoopola on the first page about talking to him and how far off base the story was.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-04-2005, 05:00 AM:

When you configure a projector for a slow ramp-up speed which seems like an excellent way to ease stress on the film, won't that cause a potential problem for change-over operation? Would you wind up having to thread-up on #5 or #4, even #3 on the sycn leader to compensate for the slow startup? And how exactly do you incorporate an inverter to get the ramp-up? Is the ramp timing adjustable?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-04-2005, 06:34 AM:

Yes, yes and yes. You can program the ramp up speed to be whatever you want...2 seconds, 7 seconds, 80 seconds! Obviously you have to thread on a lower number of the countdown if you are going to have the machine start slower. It doesn't take long to figure out exactly where though. In fact the Sharpie test is probably the easiest one.

Thread projector with junk film (preferably fullcoat or painted leader).

Start other projector near the reel end.

Hold Sharpie marker in aperture of projector with junk film with other hand on it's motor switch and eyes on the screen, such that the marker is touching the film itself.

Turn on the motor as soon as you see the first changeover cue as if you were going to make a changeover to that projector.

The instant you see the last frame of film project, jerk the Sharpie marker out of the aperture on the projector that just ramped up with junk film.

You now have yourself a length of film that is literally "marked" as to how many feet/frames ahead of the "0" frame based upon the rampup of that projector. Run that through a frame counter and there you have it.

(Note - remove a few frames from that marked length of film to account for human slop/error as needed. This will be damned close though. [thumbsup]

)

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-04-2005, 07:05 AM:

quote: Frank Angel
Would you wind up having to thread-up on #5 or #4, even #3 on the sycn leader to compensate for the slow startup?

What does it matter where you have to lace up to get the changeover timing right? The only thing that matters is that the speed at which the machine runs up is consistant every time; how long it takes doesn't matter. Actually, I suppose In theory it would be a problem if the machine started *incrediby* slowly, so that you had to lace up just a few frames before the start of picture, but nothing's going to start up that slowly.

I think the latest point I've ever had to lace up, with Academy leader is a few frames after the '6'. This assumes of course that the cues are in the right place.

Has anybody else noticed that recently the motor cue tends to come early? It's not consistant, even between reels of the same print sometimes, but on many prints it's around 5-8 frames early. I'm talking about printed cues, not ones which somebody has scribed on by hand.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-04-2005, 08:00 AM:

Yup. Done it many times, Brad. In one theatre we actually had a descrepance between the machines. One projector need to have [8]+4 frames in the gate and the other [9]+1 frame in the gate. Too many just pop in #8 and leave it at that. In fact after my first mentor taught me the method you detailed, another projectionist told me that was all crap, just put it on [3] so that if you miss, you will never have leader showing on the screen. When I told him I didn't think that was right, he said, "What do you think the black is for between number 3 and the picture? It's so if you are "late" all that happens is the screen goes black for a second. That's why it's there."
He was a Union projectionist. Quite a number of his collegues did the same thing. This was in the local that covers Houston TX. Lucky for me, I had the a real craftsman as a teacher before I ever ran into these oafs.

quote: Stephen Furley
What does it matter where you have to lace up to get the changeover timing right? The only thing that matters is that the speed at which the machine runs up is consistant every time; how long it takes doesn't matter.

Granted, Stephen, but there is concern that the sound drum might not stabilize with such a short roll-in. This was one of the issues that the SMPTE Projection Practices Committee debated back in the late 70s when they were working on standardizing the SMPTE Universal leader -- the TV people wanted it much shorter --after all, what did they need all that count-down time for? all they had to do is hit PLAY button and they are at speed in fractions of a second. Theatrical people on the other hand pleaded to leave the countdown at a substantial lengh that would allow the incoming projector sound drum to reach speed and stabilze.