Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: CP200 Split surround

This is topic CP200 Split surround in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006966

Posted by John Westlund (Member # 913) on 02-19-2005, 09:10 PM:

We have a CP200 that is being hooked up to a DTS unit. We purchased the upgrade cards we were told we would need to add split surround. I have to get this wired up before the tech comes out to do the EQ. My question is, where do the two surround channels hook up to the CP200? Do they use the P and Q terminals or do they use something else? The manual says that P and Q are for left and right rear surround but its still unclear to me.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 02-19-2005, 09:23 PM:

P and Q are it. Btw, why can't your tech wire it? That must be a cushy job... just go around EQ'ing things!

[Wink]

Posted by John Westlund (Member # 913) on 02-19-2005, 09:57 PM:

We don't actually have a tech, we just hire one to come out when we need something done. I work for a small 2 theatre company. The tech time is money. [Smile]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-20-2005, 04:56 AM:

You didn't need to buy the upgrade cards to run DTS. Yes they will offer better performance, but you didn't NEED to do it. DTS will run fine and dandy on the "stock" cards. It is SRD that requires it.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-20-2005, 08:16 AM:

quote: Brad Miller
You didn't need to buy the upgrade cards to run DTS.

Well, installing new 517 cards makes a HUGE difference in sound quality on the 200, makes it sound like a CP-65. You will notice the most difference on the high end frequency response and they also have more headroom in the VCA's. I once did level and distortion measurements of the new vs the old card. The difference is not small! The 517's really should be installed for and or all digital formats because of their higher headroom. Other cards are not as critical as they operate at or near unity gain. You can run with the old 117's in there but the sould quality will suffer.... won't be any better than an older CP-50....

Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-20-2005, 09:26 AM:

Actually the single most important upgrade card is the cat 560 that will allow the dts sub to pass through a fader and eq

Depending how your Aux rack is configured the P and Q terminals are used
If yu use the parametric eq on the 560 then there are some jumpers needed
The upgrade is best explained in the DA20 manual just sub the DTS for the DA20

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-20-2005, 10:40 AM:

Agreed Gord! I was just refering to my bench testing of the 117 vs the 517 card.

Mark

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-20-2005, 03:08 PM:

Mark, yes I agree the audible difference is worth the cash to you and me, but if the theater is hurting so much for cash that they have to have John do all of the wiring, odds are the sound system isn't anything phenomenal. (That's not saying it is a bad system, but from the sound of things the theater doesn't have the funds to put in a full blown mega system of sorts.) With that in mind, no the 517s aren't THAT important. [Wink]

quote: John Westlund
We purchased the upgrade cards we were told we would need to add split surround.

That's the comment that prompted me to post on this. From the sound of it his dealer told him he HAD to buy them. Not so. Split surround can be had without them.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-20-2005, 04:30 PM:

No but the 560 is as it is film done wrong not to have the sub level controled by the main fader

Posted by John Westlund (Member # 913) on 02-20-2005, 11:24 PM:

I don't know what the dealer told the owner when she ordered, I just had all these parts that I had to put together [Smile]

As far as the sound system is concerned, its a CP200 (upgraded now thanks to help from this thread), DTS 6D, 2 QSC 1400's, 1 QSC 1500a, and 1 QSC MX1500a. As far as the speakers they are 3 JBL 4675c stage speakers, 1 JBL 4642a dual 18" sub, and EV surround speakers.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-21-2005, 07:22 AM:

Actually that a fairly high end sould system! Down the road be sure to replace those 117's with 517's. You will hear a major improvement especially on the high end response.

Mark

Posted by John Westlund (Member # 913) on 02-21-2005, 01:30 PM:

Replaced the 117's with 517's yesterday [thumbsup]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-21-2005, 01:57 PM:

(John I'm not picking on you. I'm picking on Mark because it's so fun!)

quote:
Actually that a fairly high end sould system!

Mark, while we will agree the stage speakers are great, they are not bi-amped. Also mixing and matching JBL stage w/EV surrounds is not what I call a smart idea. Plus we have no idea what his acoustics are like.

Posted by John Westlund (Member # 913) on 02-21-2005, 02:22 PM:

No offense taken Brad [Big Grin]

The EV surround speakers were there when the new owner bought the place. Bi-amping the system and changing out the surround speakers just aren't in the budget at this time. The stage speakers that were in the building when the new owner bought it were horrible, one of them didn't even have a speaker in it. The new JBL's will be here on tuesday.

Posted by Rich Ferrando (Member # 2056) on 03-02-2005, 11:06 PM:

On the same subject with this topic- our CP200 was upgraded for compatibility with our DA20 some time ago, and for some time I've been trying to trace down the source of some issues we've been having, only to be run up one dead-end after another.

One of the big ones is that we're not getting any subwoofer signal. The sub works (tapped the leads with a 9-volt battery, got a healthy thump), all of the solder connections are correct, the connections to the amp are correct, and the amp is working properly. But I don't even get a signal on sub's green light on the Cat 560.

Just for whatever's sake- the amps are QSC 1400's, and the sub is an EV.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-02-2005, 11:19 PM:

Actually the EV surrounds may not be that bad... just depends of there are enough of them in the room, they're not real efficient. The TS-8 actually has a pretty decent curve considering what its price was... about 90 bucks..... If any tweeters are blown e-mail or call me for the part number of a better Peerless replacement tweeter that costs about 12 bu
cks.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-03-2005, 09:34 AM:

a 9 volt battery on the heads? hmm that alone could cause a lot of damage considering a mag head preamp has about 65db of gain

I suspect that there is an error in either the programing of the format cards for format 10 or the connection of the DA20 sub to the pin on the edge connector
I put your noise gennerator in and test for sub output in the mag format

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-03-2005, 03:16 PM:

He wrote "leads". I take that as to mean the speaker wires to the subwoofer. [Cool]

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-03-2005, 06:04 PM:

sorry my misreading

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 03-06-2005, 02:33 AM:

Rich, a few things to check
Is the sub enable switch on the 560 actually on??
Is J6 ont he Cat 560 in the CP200 position?
As mentioned by Gordon the format card could be programmed wrong.
Does the 'Bass Extension' led light up at all?
Are you getting sub from Optical sound?

Darren

Posted by Rich Ferrando (Member # 2056) on 03-06-2005, 01:29 PM:

Yes, the sub enable switch is on, and yes it's switched to CP200.

The Bass Extension LED only lights up in Mag formats.

No sub in optical sound - though, one of the other issues is that since the upgrade, Optical sound has been Mono.

I pulled the card that required the numerous soldered-on diodes. I'm no expert, but as far as I can tell, they seem to be correct.

Also- this house is equipped with the Left and Right extra speakers for 70mm, and those channels don't seem to be functioning either (I built a little breakout box for external inputs - DVD player, etc - and connected it to the Mag input, and all channels function except Le and Re.)

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-06-2005, 02:04 PM:

why is it only mono
the obe doesn't work in format 01

sounds to me that whoever installed it isn't familiar with the cp200 and as such shouldn't have been playing with it
sounds more like a downgrade rather than upgrade got done

Posted by Rich Ferrando (Member # 2056) on 03-06-2005, 02:19 PM:

We always run optical in Format 04. It's Format 04 that's coming through as Mono.

Our regular tech thinks that there's some sort of internal switching issue, but no one can figure out exactly what's going on since, as I stated, everything "appears" to be wired and soldered correctly.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-06-2005, 02:33 PM:

04 should not be playing as mono
does the cat 150 card led show output on any other channel than centre?

Posted by Rich Ferrando (Member # 2056) on 03-07-2005, 12:04 AM:

Cat 150 LED shows only center channel.

One thing I've noticed is that, when the CP200 is running an analog track (i.e. on a trailer) the Center-channel LED on the DA20 (yes, the DA20) also lights up and shows signal. This doesn't happen in our other two houses (DA20 with a Smart Mod V, and DA20 with Ultra Stereo JS-200.)

Is this just a Dolby equipment-related thing, or could this be a sign of crossed wires?

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 03-07-2005, 11:52 AM:

Sounds a bit like an A chain problem.
Or the format cards have been messed with a little too much!
Le and Re are only used in 40 and 41 if i recall or a custom format. Is your Le, Re amp on, has the mods to the backplane gone wrong in a bad way.

DA20 will show what ever is coming from the A chain part of the CP200, i.e. Matrix card. Then it is fed back from the DA20 to the B chain of the CP200 via Assy Unit if you have one, then to Control unit of CP200.

OBE should be on in 04, 05, 42, 43.
Optical sound deos have Sub. OBE= Optical Bass Extension/Expansion which ever!

Why dont you run in SR, you have Dolby Digital but no SR???
Do you not have an SRA-5??

I would suggest you get an engineer in to sort out whats going on.

Darren

Posted by Rich Ferrando (Member # 2056) on 03-07-2005, 12:38 PM:

We don't have an SRA5. Dolby told me to simply swap the Cat 22's with Cat 280T's.

I have the Cat 280T's installed, but since optical is running as Mono - most likely in a bypass mode - the NR cards aren't being used.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-07-2005, 12:57 PM:

bypass on the cp200 is only possible on the rotary front panel switch
I think someone screwed up on the jumpers on the backplane orsetting up your formats
Also it is possible one of the switch cards has failed