Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: A Simplex Shaky Picture

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Posted by Richard Edward Wells III (Member # 2990) on 02-21-2005, 11:46 AM:

I just recently moved to a new theater, they run with 8 Simplex 1050's and 4 of the Millenium editions, and many of them have a bad shaky picture, and despite my adjusting of the tension on the film trap, the picture is still shaky, it just makes it a little worse or better. What other factors lead to a shaky picture?

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 02-21-2005, 01:01 PM:

Is it shaky up and down or side to side?

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-21-2005, 01:33 PM:

Since you say you came from another theater, I don't feel to bad about asking these questions:

How clean are the projectors?
How well have they been maintained up till the time you started working there?

I guess what I'm saying is that no matter how well you, personally, maintan the machines, you could be shovelling shit against the tide if they weren't well maintained and kept clean before you took over.

It;s kinda' like buying a used car... You inherrit all the previous owner's problems.

Posted by Floyd Justin Newton (Member # 1316) on 02-21-2005, 01:47 PM:

Richard III--

There is probably a set screw on the int. sprocket that 'might'
become ever-so-loose which can cause vertical jitter. You may
want to check that this screw is well-seated. This happened on
my JJ's. [Smile]

Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 02-21-2005, 04:03 PM:

First thing, figure out if the shake is coming from your projector or the lens turret. I know that milleniums have poorly designed lens turret and the collets that hold hte actual lens becomes loose.

Grab and hold the lens in one position and see if the problem goes away.

This next method should not be done with an actual print, just use a trailer loop. Thread it up and stick a tooth brush or something behind the tension band. If the shake stops then you dont have enough tension.

If it is a horizontal shake then it is most likely that the lateral guid roller has stuck open and is allowing the film to move in the gate.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-21-2005, 11:32 PM:

I think Mr MAy has offed the most important queery
the direction of the shake and until that is known the rest is useless speculation

Posted by Richard Edward Wells III (Member # 2990) on 02-22-2005, 12:04 AM:

It's a vertical shake... and on the projector with the worst shake, it is not the lens that is shaking the picture... and the tension adjust on the film trap seems to do almost nothing.

Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 02-22-2005, 12:22 AM:

Is the Int. movement noisy? Checked the oil level lately? Is the oil pump working properly?

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 02-22-2005, 01:39 AM:

Maybe the gate bands are just old. They come to a point when the tension adjustment doesn't help anymore, they have to be replaced. Then you should make sure the trap closure is set properly. The pad shoe is not supposed to firmly grip the intermittent sprocket, there should be 1-2 film thicknesses between them. Although in your case, it's not likely that they are set too loose anyway. But it's good to check that once in a while.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 02-22-2005, 01:56 AM:

If it's the Mil2000 machines, those have the Century trap and gate assembly, and what can happen(if this is the case and machine that's causing this) is that the gate assembly is adjusted by two taper bolts with 9/64th allen sockets.

What can happen is that the adjustment has worked itself loose, where the band tension will not do any good. One must loosen up those taper bolts and slide in the gate assembly a bit towards the trap, then retighten to see if this cures the vertical jumping-if it's gate and trap related. If this works, make sure that the band tension is back down to "1" for miminual wear.

I've had 2 Mils do this very thing-jumpy pict and the band tension was cranked all the way up.

Now, if it's the older 1050's, there is a stop allen that stops the gate from closing too tight, or it could wiggle itself out to where the gate isn't closing too tight-as above with the Mils.

The stop allen is the allen screw on the other side of the aperture opening on the trap assembly.

How to see if the assembly is closing properly, is to look at the Intermittent shoes and when the gate closes, the shoes should have just completely touched the sprocket-no more nor, no less.

If the shoes have touched the sprocket and the gate has more to close, then the stop allen is in too much. If the shoes aren't even closing around the sprocket, or just one side of the shoes are touching the sprocket, the stop allen is out too far,which isn't allowing the gate to come completely closed to the trap.

If it isn't these above, you could have some turret bearing that have gone bad, or the turret rings are out of adjustment. In the 1050's, the top bearing is on an eccentric shaft whereas the other two are on solid shafts. The top shaft is where one tightens up the turret so there is very gradual play. Loosen up the allen - a 3/32nds and put a 1/8" allen in the front of the bearing, and this will rotate the shaft until when the turret can rotate, but without any play. Also, check the two nylon stop bolts for the turret and see if they're stopping the turret in position when the turret is closing.

These turret tips are probably not related to the vertical problem that is apparent, but it's an area that needs attention as well.

Little helps for you on your jumpy problem.

-good luck .. Monte

Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 02-22-2005, 03:23 AM:

Michael
Could you explain how to adjust the pad shoe so it is 1-2 film thicknesses of gap from the intermittent.I have 1050's with the straight gate and the pad shoe is under spring tension so when the gate is closed the pad shoe rests against the intermittent due to the spring tension.Are we talking about a different gate?(sorry for putting the pressure on you but I'll be your BEST FRIEND if you tells us!!!) [Wink]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 02-22-2005, 03:37 AM:

Hi Ian ..

Please excuse me for "butting" in with your question to Michael, but the 1050 straight gates have the same stop allen bolt, inboard and across of the aperture opening on the trap assembly - to stop the gate assembly from closing too tight against the intermittent sprocket. You can adjust this out with an allen wrench for correct closure distance.

Look in your Simplex parts manual, and you'll see in the gate and trap section the P-1433 Gap Adjusting Screw. This is this stop screw for the gate.

Just trying to help you out.

thx-monte

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 02-22-2005, 05:56 AM:

The white man speaks the truth! Interestingly, in the old Simplex manuals, I don't think it says anything about distance between the pad shoe and the sprocket. But in the PR2000 manual, it says there should be 1 film thickness space. Yes, the gate is different (the one which swings from a bolt on top of the gate), but the principle is the same. Typically, clearance between pad rollers and the other sprockets is set to 2 film thicknesses. That's because unlike the intermittent pad shoe, they are not springed to allow splices to pass through smoothly. Whether you put a piece of film on the intermittent sprocket and adjust the stopping screw so that it just closes, or whether you simply adjust it by feeling so that it just touches the sprocket or is a tiny little bit away from it, doesn't really matter. What's important is that the pad shoe simply holds the film on the sprocket without much pressure. Too much pressure can result in excessive shedding and wear down the intermittent movement prematurely.
After adjusting the gate closure, you will also have to adjust gate band tension. The best tension is just what is needed to keep the film from jumping up and down, not much more. You also need to reset the focus. Often, you still have enough play using the focus adjustment on the lens turret. But you can also reset the lenses by setting the focus adjustment screw to the middle of its travel, losening the screw which tightens down the lens barrel, and moving the lenses into the ideal focus position. Also check out the tips for scope lens adjustments here in the tips section. Finally, check if the stopping screw for the lens turret has worn down, and also the screws which stop the turret in scope or flat position when you rotate it. All these sometimes get loose or wear down, the picture can get a little, but noticeably, out of alignment!

There are a few other really good tips in the manuals. I believe you can view them on www.film-tech.com , or http://www.strong-cinema.com/ , also download and print them! Most of them even have pictures!!

Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 02-22-2005, 07:11 AM:

Thanks Monte-I'll be your best friend too!! [beer]

My gates are at the point where they need a complete overhaul,The vertical runners are worn,the springs are week and even the faceplate of the trap has wear marks from the print running over it(which could indicate that there has been too much gate tension)I think I should rebuild the gates first then worry about the adjustments that you and Michael have mentioned.I have a small amount of vertical picture shake on one machine which has the most worn gate and trap,my other machine nas a very steady picture.
What I did notice tonight on the very worn gate is when it is closed there is very little travel left in the vertical runners ie that are nearly pushed hard up against the gate. I know we have strayed a bit but I hope this information is helpful for Richard 3-I know I have learnt something!!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-22-2005, 07:30 AM:

quote: Michael Schaffer
The white man speaks the truth! Interestingly, in the old Simplex manuals, I don't think it says anything about distance between the pad shoe and the sprocket.

Thats because there was no stopper screw to adjust gate closure depth back then. You got the full force of the gate tension onto the film weather you wanted it or not.....

Mark

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 02-22-2005, 08:12 AM:

About when and with which model did they start the stopping screw?

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-22-2005, 08:47 AM:

I called Strong one time to ask them about that screw. They told me that there is no specific way to adjust it. You just carefully turn it until you get enough gate tension.

Also, in my experience, the 1050s with the flip-up gate are finicky about adjustment of the lateral guide wheels. Once it passes the wheels, there's not much to support the film going through the trap but the gate bands and shoe rails. If those wheels aren't perfectly aligned with the intermittent sprocket and if they don't spin freely, there will be trouble.

If I remember correctly, those 1050s also acted like a bitch if they weren't kept spotlessly clean. (Thus my question above.)

I had a theater full of 1050s with the flip-up gate. It was one of my least favorite places to go. They would call me up, whining about a problem, and the first words out of my mouth were, "Did you clean the projector? Give it a good cleaning and call me back." About a half hour later later they'd call back, still whining. When I got there (2 hour drive) I would find all the projectors just caked with dirt like they hadn't been cleaned since the last time *I* did it. This was, in fact, true. They hadn't been cleaned since I did it last. The last time I visited that theater I took one look at the machines and went into the office. I sat down in the manager's chair and said, "When you get somebody to clean those projectors I'll go out there and start working on them." The guy looked at me like I had just killed a puppy! It was about an hour later when some pimple-faced kid knocked on the door and told me they were clean. All he had done was quickly hit them with a paint brush. It was better but not good enough. I gave him an "E" for effort, at least.

I took this kid aside and handed him a red shop towel. I showed him how to clean a projector, top to bottom. When I finished, I threaded it up and started the movie. The thing ran PERFECTLY! I made a point of telling him, "These projectors will NOT work right if you don't keep them SPOTLESSLY clean!" I then told him to keep a rag in his back pocket and wipe out every projector BEFORE he threaded it.

The next day when I came in, the same kid came up to me and told me that the same projector we had worked on the day before was acting up again. "Did you clean it like I told you?", I asked. I got that "dead puppy look" I mentioned above. I walked over to the projector to find the shop towel I handed him on the floor about two feet from the spot where I handed it to him!

I just walked out. I went back to my motel room and turned on the TV. I came back later that evening when there was nobody else around. I finished my work and left. I don't think I ever went back to that theater, except for an odd emergency call.

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 02-22-2005, 10:25 AM:

My advice is to call the factory, ask for tech advice.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 02-22-2005, 12:43 PM:

quote: Randy Stankey
the 1050s with the flip-up gate

..those be called the 1060's - they didn't last very long.

-Monte

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-22-2005, 12:47 PM:

Michael,

The stopper screw appeared with the introduction of the curved gate..... Its easy to minstall the stopper screw on other machines that don't have it and its a good idea to do it. Flat gates included!!

MArk

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 02-22-2005, 01:05 PM:

Okey..since we're here talking about our favorite machine from Omaha, I'm going to swing the topic over to gate bands for a bit for us curve gate owners:

With "poly" film, gate bands will wear faster due to "poly" film being more abrasive than the acetate stock.

Wolk has "blue steel" gate bands that are more harder being spring steel than the rolled steel that Simplex uses.

..little help to the forum (thx for Mark in telling me about this so I can share to the 'bretheren')

-Monte

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 02-22-2005, 04:52 PM:

quote: Richard Hamilton
My advice is to call the factory, ask for tech advice.

Richard, you are at the factory! Maybe you could just stroll over to the 35mm colleagues and ask them.
However, I don't think this is so massively complicated. The important thing is that the pad shoe does not press down on the intermittent sprocket too much. It is just there to keep the film from jumping off. If you can achieve this with the "light touch" and still have enough tension on the trap to keep the film from jumping, then that is all you need.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 02-22-2005, 06:20 PM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
..those be called the 1060's - they didn't last very long.

How long did they last? The ones I use at my theatre are 10 years old. Installed in 1995. I don't remember another model until the milleniums.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-22-2005, 09:41 PM:

1060's were the ones with the flip-up gate?! Damn! I thought it was the 1050! I stand corrected!

With all of the other Simplexes that don't have the flip-up gate I used to use a 1/4 inch Allen wrench to set the trap/shoe spacing. It's hard to describe in writing but, suffice it to say, you trap the wrench in the trap then set the stopper screw till you can just barely pull the wrench out of the trap.

You've also got to watch out for the torsion spring adjustment that holds the gate shut. It can be a bitch to get that one right!

Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 02-22-2005, 11:27 PM:

Hi Mark
I am very interested in installing the stopper screw to my 1050's(with flat gates).Where would I get the information from that would show me where this screw is located and how it sets the gate position?Is it a Simplex part for another projector that is adapted to the 1050?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 02-23-2005, 12:15 AM:

quote: Darryl Spicer
I don't remember another model until the milleniums.

1060's popped out in early 1997, but what I heard that the flip up gate, being a one piece gate, was the worst design being that it still contained both the curved rail assembly and the intermittent shoe assembly from the earlier XL/1050's, yet now being swung on an upper hinge, for I've never worked on a 1060, but seen a few of them. Bad design there.

If you read the Simplex 1060 operations manual in the "Manual" section of FT for the 1060, the comment of constant cleaning after each performance is quoted.

The 1060's were designed so the TU2000 turret assembly can rotate with the turret closed, instead of having the turret being opened for lens changeovers. Just by redesigning the gate and trap assembly from the XL/1050s, made this function to be finally allowed -to have the turret rotate without having all of the complicated mechanisms to swing open the turret just to thread and to change lenses with the older 1050's.

Some cinemas removed the automatic lens/turret rotating devices, just to make the turret be a manual turret function.

The Christie 35 took to this and massively perfected this swinging gate to where the trap and gate assembly became one piece, but was smart to have the intermittent movement have it's own shoe assembly, and thus came out the P35GPS later on that year. - one of the best designed heads to be placed in cinemas

Strong took the 1060 turret concept, lengthened the XL case about an inch, added the Century trap and gate, finally caught on that the intermittent movement needs its own shoe assembly (which they also "stole" from the Century), and out popped the Mils as the result.

-Monte

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-23-2005, 02:28 AM:

always felt that Strong should go back and replace every POS swinging gate assy they made..... they at least owe each of us a couple of beers for that mistake!

MArk

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-23-2005, 06:47 AM:

The PR-1060 gate is quite adjustable, actually. In many ways, I prefer it to the current gates on the PR-2000s. One can certainly precisely set the PR-1060's gate and have it hold there for some time. It is also easier to thread and clean.

As for the intermittent shoe, it is independantly adjustable (at least on all of the ones I've laid hands on) so setting the gate height, depth can be done and then the shoe set for precise contact.

The PR-1060's biggest weak point is if the gate is left opened and the turret is slam closed on it.

As for separate intermittent shoes...totally unnecessary...Show me a tech that needs a separate intermittent shoe, I'll show you a tech that doesn't know what they are doing.

You'll be happy to know that the PR-1014 now has a separately adjustable shoe though still attached to the gate assembly so one can again set proper gate depth and then adjust the shoe for perfect contact. Note though...if you knew how to form the tang on the older style, you could achieve the same results with less stuff to come out of alignment or rattle off.

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-23-2005, 07:51 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
I'll show you a tech that doesn't know what they are doing.

Thank you! I woulda said that Strong hasn't a clue as to what they design but you've said it for me [Big Grin]

.

The 1060's have way to much slop in the pin and bushing of that swing out gate. You can actually move the bottom of the gate back and forth about 3/16" on some of them! I've seen the sides of teeth chewed off the sprocket because its impossible to keep the pad centered. We stock and use a special regular tooth sprocket just for that machine, they are just narrow enough that they clear that "slop".

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 02-23-2005, 09:23 AM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
1060's popped out in early 1997

Like I said ours were installed in early 1995. I agree the gate design sucks. Keeping those set screws locked down on the pivot shaft can be an issue on some of them. I havn't ran into any issues with the shoes or the teeth on the intermittent being chewed up and thes have been in operation for 10 years now. The turrets on those do tend to have a lot of issues at times bit I do like them better than the ones that were on the 1050's.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-23-2005, 11:40 AM:

No lie Mark. No problems with aligning the PR-1060 traps here...no premature wear no particular steadiness issues. Is pivioting the whole thing from one end the most robust design, no...can it work yes.

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-23-2005, 08:40 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Is pivioting the whole thing from one end the most robust design, no...can it work yes.

Yes it can be done right and Christie did do it right on the P-35! Those pivots also never wear or develop any excess play. In the past I've even replaced the bushing and pin on the Simplex's but to no avail., the new parts have about the same amount of slop. Keep in mind that they certainly can be aligned but that they also normally have about 3/32" of lateral slop at the bottom.... the length of the gate seems to multipliy the slop at the pivot point and at the intermittent shoe its quite a bit of slop, enough that you can move it back and forth and scrape both sides of the teeth on a VKF sprocket. Regular tooth sprockets are not a problem though. Had Strong taken the time to do the job right they wold have at least tightened up tolerances or made the pin and bushing a tapered fit so it would always take up its own slop.

Mark