Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Home film theaters...

This is topic Home film theaters... in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006970

Posted by Don Cross (Member # 2980) on 02-21-2005, 08:47 PM:

Is anyone aware of either companies or individuals which are still installing units in people home film theaters- for people who have the money to bank-roll such a project?

Would this generally be the same hardware as found in a commercial theater- or would it be scaled down a bit?

Posted by Dean Kollet (Member # 1789) on 02-21-2005, 09:41 PM:

check out the Pictures section to your Left....

Posted by Matthew Jaro (Member # 1786) on 02-21-2005, 09:41 PM:

If you are talking about 35mm installations, I can reccommend Cardinal Sound in Maryland. Their phone number is (301) 621-2500. Both Neil Rockman and Steve Guttag are among the best in the business.
Generally speaking, the equipment would be the same as a commercial theater. It will be more, if you want to go changeover (since setting up a platter for a single showing in a screening room requires a lot of preparation time).However, you may save some money buying re-built equipment, but there is not much sense in building a screening room if it's not as good as most commercial theaters.

Posted by Don Cross (Member # 2980) on 02-21-2005, 10:38 PM:

Thank you both for the assistance.

Theres a certain politically connected person who has a house in suburban (Pittsburh) Pennsylvania who is wanting to have a home film theater added to their house. Once they're sold on the idea it should be interesting to see how it turns out.

I'll see if I can't talk them into documenting this type of procedure.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-22-2005, 07:48 AM:

Definitely do check out the picture gallery (look under "screening rooms"): you'll see everything from Holmes and Devry "portable" machines to full Norelco 70mm setups.

If you don't have space for full-size machines, "portables" are an option. I put "portables" in quotes because they are almost as heavy as theatre machines, but can be easier to transport. Theatre equipment will likely be cheaper, though, if you can find a booth that is being upgraded or a theatre that is closing and will be converted to another use. If you don't need the equipment right away and are on a budget, hold out for a good deal, rather than buying from a dealer. Shipping can be expensive if you can't find the equipment locally. If you want a changeover booth, try to get identical machines with sequential (or close) serial numbers.

There really is something for everyone's needs and budget--you can have a serviceable 35mm setup for under $1000 if you look hard enough and put some work into restoring older equipment. Or you can spend as much as you want to get the "perfect" acoustical room treatment, curtains, screen, sound system, seats, popcorn machine, etc.

For smaller spaces, 8mm and 16mm are also options. Derann Films in the UK can legally sell you super-8mm prints of recent features.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 02-22-2005, 08:28 AM:

Derann Film Services are in Dudley, near Birmingham. Some of their Super-8 prints are of very high quality. Not all are, it depends on the quality of the elements they have to work from. For things like Disney films, and many other features, they are supplied with a 35mm interpos, from which a negative is made in Super-8 two up on 16mm 1-3 format. Many of the short films are derived from lower quality elements; it depends on what is available. Derann do not do their own printing; it used to be done by Rank, but when they stopped doing anything smaller than 35mm the work went to a lab in the North of the Country; I don't know which one.

Prints are supplied to Derann in 2000 foot rools, still in the 1-3 format; they do their own mag sriping, using the paste process. the prints are recorded, at double speed I think, from a sound master on 16mm fullcoat, still in the 1-3 format, and are then slit and spooled. all of this work is done in a small room at the back of their shop.

Four channel sound, matrixed from two tracks like 35mm optical, is possible on Super-8, with one track recorded on the main stripe and the other on the balance, which with this gauge is almost as wide, unlike 16mm. I don't think anybody is still doing optical sound on 8mm; it was always mono, and few projectors could handle it. It was used quite widely by the airlines at one time.

In the days when production volumes were larger Super-8 prints were generally made four-up in 35mm stock, 35,32 4R format, with a slightly larger perforation in the 3mm of waste film down one edge.

For a few years Technicolor even made dye transfer Super-8 prints. These were transferred on 35mm stock, as were all IB prints, but only three up. There were larger perforations, I'm not sure if they were standard 35mm ones or not, down each edge, which were used for registration on the pin belt.

For some years, before it was the case with 35mm, all new Super-8 prints have been on polyester base, and for some years now black and white films have had to be printed on colour stock, as black and white is no longer available.

Until just a few years ago there was somebody with their own lab below the shop in West London that was still printing standard-8, in 1-4 format, and somebody in France is still printing 9.5mm the last I heard.

I've seen a Derann print projected on a screen of about 30 feet, using an Elmo GS-1200 xenon projector. It was dim, as you might expect, but the quality of the image was much better than you might expect, considering that this is equal to a screen width of about a hundred feet with 35mm.

The film department is a fairly small part of the business of the company, located in an area at the back of the shop; They deal mainly in audio-visual equipment.

The cost of a Super-8 magnetic sound print can be not far short of the cost of a 35mm optical one.

New 16mm prints seem to be almost non-existant now, but there is a thriving market in used ones.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 02-22-2005, 08:44 AM:

The question is not one of finding someone to procure and install the equipment. That's just a matter of money. The issue is, where are they going to get prints to run? Do they understand the copyright issues, etc...

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 02-22-2005, 12:22 PM:

Until recently 35mm at home was almost unknown here. After the War cinemas used 35mm, but most other places used 16mm, as did most television production from about the time that the BBC went colour. By the time the nitrate problem was gone 16mm was well established as the gauge for use outside proper cinemas, including exhibitions, college lecture theatres etc. 35mm portable machines were never very common here.

At home people used 8 or 16mm some with quite sophisticated setups, stereo sound, curtains etc. There was somebody who even had a small organ in his home cinema.

I've booked a couple of films from the BFI for use at home, but these have been on 16mm. The last one at Christmas 2003 cost about 50 pounds. The BFI transported the print to their offices in London, and I collected it from there, to save the cost of sending it to me. I had to pay in advance by cheque, because I didn't have an account with them, but there were no problems making the booking.

Could an individual book a 35mm print for a home screening? I've never tried to do it.

I would imagine that there might be problems with a title that was on current release, I don't know whether the barring arrangements which used to exist still do, it's many years since I've been involved in anything like that, I did some booking for a festival once, in the '70s.

Are there any non-commercial distributors left? Do any of them handle 35mm? Could you book a print of a 'classic' film for home use? Has anybody tried this?

Posted by Mark Hajducki (Member # 1732) on 02-22-2005, 12:29 PM:

Non-theatrical bookings are possible in the UK, and many film societies use 35mm.

The 35mm prints are the same as the one that the commercial theatres book for showing (mainly from the delux depot in Perivale, although some are from the BFI or more independent distributers).

I suspect that if you went through a booking agent you would be able to book them for home use.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 02-22-2005, 01:05 PM:

quote: Mark Hajducki
many film societies use 35mm

Film societies use 35mm now, but this is a fairly recent thing. If you go back to the '70s, most of them were using 16mm. Since that time the use of 16mm, as an exhibition medium, has almost died out and the sort of places that used to use it have moved either to video, or to 35mm. There has been a drastic reduction in the use of film prints in all gauges except 35mm. If you want to run film today it's almost essential to be equipped for 35mm. This didn't used to be the case. I remember a few film society type groups which were very proud of the fact that they could run 35mm; it was a rare thing then.

I want to book another film on 16mm from the BFI soon; while I'm talking to them I'll enquire as to whether they will let out 35mm for home use.

Posted by Warren Smyth (Member # 1838) on 02-22-2005, 05:32 PM:

I have found that film companies are generally willing to hire 35mm prints for screenings in a home theatrette on a flat rental basis. There is a window of opportunity between the time the prints have completed their initial run, and the time they are junked. There are some companies which hold on to prints for many years particularly the classics. Hiring policy no doubt varies depending on what part of the world you live. The current paranoa within the industry over piracy probably doesn't help, so it would be wise to check film availability before investing in 35mm equipment.

Now I know I am going to offend some with celluloid in the veins, but we must face reality. As far as 8mm and 16mm goes, many with home installations are now switching to DVD presentation. I have recently bought a digital projector which gives results which are better than 16mm. The one I bought, has a long focal length on the zoom which enables locating of the projector in the projection room. Some of these latest projectors with a HDMI link between the player and projector produce very impressive pictures and this is coming from someone who is used to 35mm quality. This is possible at comparitively the same cost as coloured TVs were when they originally came on the market. The limiting factor is the quality of the disk, but then some 16mm prints are pretty bad as well. The range of available product on DVDs is incredibly wide and increasing. As for 8mm, it's really a non starter now, with the digital alternative, unless you are running old home movies.

Posted by Matthew Jaro (Member # 1786) on 02-22-2005, 06:33 PM:

High definition DVDs are supposed to be available next year. Such a player with a three chip DLP projector should have better quality than 16mm.

Posted by Joshua Waaland (Member # 287) on 02-22-2005, 07:15 PM:

As far as getting 35mm prints goes, there are places to trade and buy them if you know where to look. As long as you aren't trying to make money off of the prints or doing something with them other than private screening, you will probably be fine. In fact, I have heard of collector's who have had studios come to them to borrow a print to make a DVD from. Most times they clean the print and send it back with a copy of the DVD and a thank you note. I think studios have changed their views from nuisance to helpful when it comes to collector's.

Posted by Don Cross (Member # 2980) on 02-22-2005, 11:15 PM:

As mentioned (briefly) a bit earlier, this is still in the beginning stages. The person who resides in the suburban Pittsburgh area is looking to make a rather drastic change to their house- a residence which has published in many periodicals.

The way things look now is as follows: Probably leaning towards a commercial unit for home use, such as the newer Strong 35's as an example. Even though this persons residence presently has electrical service at 400 amps, I guess they won't mind addding another 200 box.

One of the things which is being aimed for is a near perfect accoustical theater. The home owner has already spent almost 20k hiring an arhictectural company to do this small feat. The person has a former history "assisting and consulting" in the recording industry, and claims that he want to up the bar by one in building this home theater. The owner is aiming to have a better sounding system than most (but not all) commercial theaters.

This looks to be quite a project. The architects will probably take a few months with their plans, and then onto construction. Those two items should take just under one year total without getting into the projection and sound issues.

Thanks again for all of the very helpful assistance that everyone has provided. I'll try to keep everyone updated if desired.

Posted by Dean Kollet (Member # 1789) on 02-23-2005, 12:05 PM:

Dan, without giving me specifics...where in Pittsburgh?
I was born and raised in Bethel Park, south of Pittsburgh...and I know some people (family members included) with houses that have been "published in magazines"

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 02-23-2005, 12:09 PM:

Hopefully these architects have experience in designing theatres or screening rooms. The design considerations for a music studio or concert hall is not the same as a movie theatre, if you want great accustics.

Posted by Don Cross (Member # 2980) on 02-23-2005, 02:07 PM:

As for the location question (and please pardon the possible spelling errors on the location names)...

Fox Chapel off of route 28N onto old 28 near the waterworks. Without naming the exact road- go up Delafield through Aspinwall, back under 28 and up towards the VA hospital. Its somewhere on the right and can be occasionally be spotted from the road- depending on the season.

Was interesting to read that you are from the Bethel Park area. Would that be from around the route 51 area or route 8S?

Could this also mean that you kicked my @#$ in football; as my high school team regularly got the loss from your school districts team? More about football- do you follow it much? Marino went to school at Pitt I believe and now plays pro ball for Miami- or at least did the last time I checked.

I'll be heading that way sometime in a week or two to go get a Pramanti (sp??), Sunseri, or to hit the Original O.

As for the publications that the house has made; it wasn't anything from the front shelf such as BH&G, it was more along the lines of trade journals/mags, etc... Didn't even make Pgh magazine as far as I know. Scratch that... There was a picture which included one of the salt water fish tanks that made it into a better magazine, just can't seem to recall which one.

As for the architect issue- darn good point. I'm assuming that the house owner will get what they pay for and also what they specified. I don't think the architect would have wanted to tackle this one if they didn't have full confidence that they could do it. It wouldn't be worth the risk of the rep of the firm.

Posted by Ed Inman (Member # 2583) on 02-23-2005, 05:00 PM:

If you can't afford your own indoor screening room you can still be the first on your block with your own backyard drive-in theater.

Just build an outdoor screen, pick up an old 35mm Simplex or Century for cheap, and aim it out the back window.

Makes for some great outdoor parties and you'll be the envy of all your friends.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-23-2005, 07:33 PM:

It's been done. [Wink]

link

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 02-24-2005, 01:19 AM:

quote: Brad Miller
It's been done

....and this is pretty cool. I kinda feel sorry for the owner of this house not to be able to truefully enjoy a complete movie, unless he has someone else doing the booth, being a carbon arc booth, to where he can sit outside and enjoy this hobby.

I've got a friend who did the same thing: He lived out in the country, had a good acre of ground, built a small booth with DeVry XD's had a pretty large screen and we watched movies all summer long outside.

-Monte

Posted by Ed Inman (Member # 2583) on 02-24-2005, 01:43 PM:

The setup I have uses a xenon head and 6K reels so I only have to change reels about once an hour. So, it's considerably less labor intensive than the more traditional carbon arc/2k reel setup in the picture. Plus I also screen 16mm using an old MARC lamp setup.

Still, I rarely go outside to watch the films with friends--most of my movies are splicey old drive-in prints and I get paranoid about what might happen if one breaks. Sooner or later I might try to install some type of automatic douser/shutoff system but right now I don't have that, so I feel safer keeping a pretty close watch on the projector while it's running. (As a matter of fact an old print of "The Hitchhikers" I was watching last night tore in half about half-way through the first reel, so it was a good thing I was there to shut everything down immediately.)

The good news is that I can still watch the movies from the kitchen window right next to the projector, so it's still enjoyable to me, and a lot of my friends get a kick out of watching them outside when the weather is nice.

Posted by Larry Myers (Member # 738) on 02-28-2005, 10:14 AM:

Hi

I have been looking to build a home theater myself. I have looked at several home theaters. One famous one is at Hurst Castle. Although it looked like a typical 30's theater, it didn't have a booth. The projector was mounted on a rather large heavy duty table in the center isle at the back of the theater.

Another home theater I looked at outside of the DC area was just for DVD's. It had a $10,000 Infocus brand projector with a 4x8 screen. Lost of money was spent for the surround sound. It also looked like a typical 30's type theater. I would say the total cost for the setup including all the deep red color drapes and fancy seats would be about $60,000. Just pop in a DVD and go.

This hole home theater thing using 35mm projectors is much like a big boat. Sure a 100 ft saleboat cost about $1,000,000, but it also cost $100,000 a year to operate. Not to say a 35mm home theater would costs $100,000 a year to operate. I don't think $40,000 a year budget for someone to operate the equipment and film rentals would be really out of line.

Larry

PS: I am also from Pittsburgh and I know who your talking about.

Posted by Gordon Bachlund (Member # 124) on 02-28-2005, 01:05 PM:

Larry, the next time you visit Hearst Castle look a bit more carefully. [Smile]

There is a regular changever booth at the rear of the room, though the entry door is from the outside, so there may have been no second exit. (I didn't ask to see inside.) The installed machines were Super Simplex projector heads, RCA sound heads and Suprex arc lamps. One complete projector has been restored and is on display in the museum there.

Posted by Larry Myers (Member # 738) on 02-28-2005, 03:30 PM:

Hi

It been 10 years since I have been to the castle. I don't remember a booth although at the time, I would not have though I might be setting up my own home theater.

The one just outside of DC I was at just last week. The Infocus projector did a good job with the 2000:1 + contrast. I think the quality was just about as good as some poorer flat 35mm features I have seen in the last 2 months or so.

One feature that comes to mind was at a second run house with a very dirty lens. Come to think of it, the whole theater was a dump. But hey, what do you expect for a $1 ticket and a $10 popcorn. And that theater was in Pittsburgh near the county airport.

Larry

[ 03-01-2005, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: Larry Myers ]

Posted by Gordon Bachlund (Member # 124) on 02-28-2005, 05:43 PM:

Larry, don't give up so easily. A home theatre can be what you make it, and with judicious use of "pre-owned" equipment and furnishings it need not cost an arm and a leg. Peruse the PICTURES here in Film-Tech for inspiration. I do from time to time to keep focussed on my own project.

Good luck! [Smile]

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 02-28-2005, 06:07 PM:

It doesnt have to be terribly elaborate either. Mine is quite modest with a 6' screen and SRD.

pics soon.

JJ

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 03-01-2005, 05:21 AM:

Having been there many, many times as I did the 870 theatre at the base of the hill... I have NO idea as to where you get the idea that there is not a 35mm projection booth and theatre in the castle... Ummmm, There IS!

As was mentioned, it's only for show now. but it was/is part of the history.

edit: Oops! I'm refering to Hearst Castle.. NOT Josh's screening room! [Smile]

(OBTW Danny... I AGREE!) [beer]

Posted by Larry Myers (Member # 738) on 03-01-2005, 08:11 AM:

Hi

I didn't say there wasn't a theater at Hearst Castle. I just don't remember seeing a booth or glass windows in the wall or anything of that nature. It was none the less a complete theater with 30's type seats, deep red drapes, a rather large 1.33 screen.

I am also not giving up. I think the original discussion was on a professional type retro theater built in a home. Something that looks like an old Fox Theater of the 30's. Getting that type of home theater will take bucks to build. If your really not into projection and film but just have money and want a true 35mm home theater, it will also be bucks to operate.

If it's the people I think it is in Pittsburgh, they have bucks and then some to do what ever they want. About as much as Hearst anyway which brings us back to Hearst Castle.

Larry

Posted by Dean Kollet (Member # 1789) on 03-01-2005, 03:34 PM:

Don...my team was Bethel Park High School. They weren't too good @ football, but my cousins play for Baldwin when they were pretty good. I played Ice Hockey, Bethel Park has won state 4 of the past 5 years. I was by both roads actually, 88 and 51, but closer to Route 88 (pronounces wraught 88 in pittsburghese)

Primantis as awesome, so is the O. Try Mineos on Route19 in Mt. Lebanon too, great pizza.