Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Ice Princess fade out/in confusion

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Posted by Jared Foley (Member # 3004) on 03-19-2005, 02:00 PM:

I'm wondering if anyone else had problems with the fade out and fade in at the 5-6 reel change. I'm positive I did the fade out correctly, but I apparently messed up the fade in for reel 6. I fixed it during the preview... or so I thought. We found out the next day that I failed in this attempt, so my manager fixed it. Then we found out HE failed as well.
My complex manager told me to compare the head of another reel to the head of reel 6 to find out my splice mark. Are heads and tails ALWAYS the exact same length?? I find this hard to believe for some reason (not including safety tape of course).
Also... why were there no black bars on the film? I freaked out thinking it was scope and that all the papers were wrong until I realized I could see a boom microphone at the top of the frame, and it's shadow on the bottom. Is this common???

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-19-2005, 03:07 PM:

Many films that are composed for 1.85:1 "flat" aspect ratio are shot with a full frame camera aperture. Unless an optical printer or digital intermediate is used to generate a "hard matte", the release prints may have a full frame image, so proper framing is important. Sometimes the full frame images are intercut with an images that have a "hard matte" if optical or digital effects are done.

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 03-19-2005, 03:54 PM:

The last frame is 24 frames after the second cue marks appear.
The first frame is something like 45 frames from the 3 on the head leader.

Had no problems cutting that one.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 03-19-2005, 04:11 PM:

..find the "negative" leader splice that joined the leader to where the print begins.

Another trick is to have an old sprocket laying around and draw lines between the sprocket's teeth were the frame lines would be in the four sprocket/frame standard. Then put the sprocket on the lead's any frame line, then roll that sprocket down the lead then mark on the edge of the film with felt marker, frame lines corresponding to the framelines marked on the sprocket. We used to do trailers this way. Gets it right every time.

Brad has a post on finding framelines in tips section and should include how to do fade change splices.

-Monte

Posted by Ryan Gardner Smith (Member # 2818) on 03-19-2005, 10:14 PM:

For the fade-in on reel 6, all you have to do is look at the leader. It's a standard academy leader on this print, the numbers mark feet (16 frames). You just count 3 feet from the 3 or 6 feet from the 6, etc. An easy estimate is use your armspan. I'm about 6 feet tall, I grab the 6 with one hand and my arm span is to the first frame.

For the fade-out on reel 5, it was said before: count 24 frames from the change-over cue. That's 24 from the last of the sequential frames of cues.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 03-19-2005, 11:59 PM:

Take another leader that you cut already and place it over top of the fade in leader so that the "3"s are on top of each other. Then you should be able to figure out where to cut this one pretty easily.

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 03-20-2005, 12:03 AM:

My leaders had a big white line with "Splice here" written on them. [Big Grin]

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 03-20-2005, 04:35 AM:

quote: Dominic Espinosa
The first frame is something like 45 frames from the 3 on the head leader.

to be precise, it's 47 frames. that is, there's the "3" frame, then 47 frames of black, then the first frame of the show. sometimes the "3" is a "2" though, if the leader counts by seconds instead of feet.

that's a general rule. i haven't handled ice princess so i don't know if there's some peculiar exception there.

carl

Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 03-20-2005, 01:46 PM:

Again, another reason maybe why the fades should be included in the reel.

Do you think whoever makes this choice is doing it because the splice would be hidden better because it is dark?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-20-2005, 01:57 PM:

I don't really understand the problem, the head splice location is easy to find with a footage counter and the tail location is easy using the cue marks and a footage counter, a fade in or out is placed where the content requires it and any one who is competent should be able to locate where t make the splice as leader and tail piece info is well documented and standardised

Posted by Cory Isemann (Member # 2517) on 03-20-2005, 02:16 PM:

I think the problem is that it's not often you have that type of reel change. What threw me was that it just went from cue marks to nothingness all the way to the end of the reel. We have a counter, which I used, but I had a little trouble figuring out where the frame lines were near the cue marks. Generally, are they right above the cue marks?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 03-20-2005, 02:56 PM:

quote: Gordon McLeod
I don't really understand the problem.....

I know where Gord is coming from, for us "OF'ers" remember when, while we were doing the changerover style, that a lot of movies had fadeout changeovers were placed in movies, and at the reel change, where that was an accepted method of making presenting a story - fading out between scenes, like going from ACT-I, to ACT-II and so forth in an opera. In the silent era and early talkie era, this was the common norm of projecting...

..just this new generation is "ignorant" on such matters, and it's really not their fault, but they were never trained on this classic "chapter changing" procedure on how to make the "chapter" fade out completely and the next "chapter" fade in.

To me, when I see a movie that the fadeout/fadein procedure cut in the middle, even with trailers, is a very sloppy, unprofessional presentation. It's like reading a book, with skipping the last two paragraphs of the previous chapter, and then skipping the first two paragraphs of the next chapter.

-Monte

Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 03-20-2005, 03:31 PM:

Sorry Gordon and Monte. Here's an "OFer", so to speak, who doesn't agree with you.

I do understand the problem. Jarred is a newbee who is interested in learning, and much to his credit, like many young people similarly interested in good presentation, he has come to the right place. Or has he???

Yes Gordon, to quote you "any one who is competent should be able to locate where t make the splice as leader and tail piece info is well documented and standardised." But Jarred, and others, seek information that they don't have immediate access to.

Are we to put these people down with condescending comments and then expect that the state of the industry regarding presentation is going to improve? I don't think so.

Instead of getting more people to learn and eventually contribute, we are only going to chase them away.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-20-2005, 07:16 PM:

It isn't condescending but factual and the information is relatively easy to find if one searchs this site alone

Posted by Greg Routenburg (Member # 1742) on 03-20-2005, 10:08 PM:

I sympathise with Jared. I started as "Silly"plex was laying off their union projectionists in favor of training ushers to run their booths. None of the finer points of presentation were explained to me either and so I had to rely on alot of info from this forum aswell. Later I was very fortunate to work with and learn from some very experienced people, Gordon included. All I can say is it's nice to see other young people taking an active approach to learning the trade. So Jared my advice to you is keep asking these sorts of questions, you're probably helping a whole lot of others in much the same position as yourself.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 03-20-2005, 10:32 PM:

quote: Greg Routenburg
So Jared my advice to you is keep asking these sorts of questions, you're probably helping a whole lot of others in much the same position as yourself.

Bravo! .. and this pertains to all of the ones who seek any kind of advice...and maybe we can build back this diminishing craft/trade that was once just about abolished due to the "new operating standards", that the BIG BROTHERS had set upon the world.

I've noticed that the forum membership head count is growing quite rapidly.....hmmmmm, definitely new potiental "students" who want to learn.

-Monte

Posted by Jared Foley (Member # 3004) on 03-21-2005, 03:12 AM:

Not only am I a newbie, but I am a newbie with very very limited resources. I've never even heard of a "footage counter" until Gordon mentioned them. When I build a film all I have is my trusty Neumade splicer, aging equipment, and poor booth lighting conditions. I have no fancy shmancy new age technology - not even access to the internet.
Anyway, we did solve the problem afterall. I suppose my asst. manager is the only competent film handler in my workplace. :-

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 03-21-2005, 09:53 PM:

For a cheap poor-man's footage counter, you just need a piece of paper. Take some 17x23" construction paper (or whatever) and tape it down to the surface of your rewind bench. Then, lay a piece of film horizontally across it (perhaps tape it down temporarily) and color through the perforations with a sharpie (takes a few minutes). Remove the film, and then with a ruler, add a vertical line every 4 perfs, and a horizontal line above and below the perfs. Then just fill in frame numbers.

Now you have a poor man's footage counter. It's a bit annoying for measuring more than the width of your table, but it's way better than nothing, or slowly counting perfs! (You can make a mark witha sharpie inbetween perfs on the opposite-sound side every time you have to shift the film, if necessary.)

--jhawk

p.s.: Yes, a 1-gang sync block is the right answer. Barring that, a Neumade film measuring-machine -style counter. And after that, all sorts of home-made devices involving sprockets. But not everyone has these tools, but paper and ink are pretty damn universal!

Posted by Jared Foley (Member # 3004) on 03-22-2005, 03:19 AM:

That's not a bad idea... but that also reminds me of another problem I deal with: our rewind table is inoperable. It apparently hasn't worked since 2003. I thought of using an old leader tape that I have laying around. Good idea?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-22-2005, 11:12 AM:

Get a spare spcoket and scribe it ever 4th sprocket tooth and mount it on a spindle with two rollers below and one has a cheap frame finder

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 03-22-2005, 07:00 PM:

Err, I don't follow your question, Jared. I said "rewind bench" but I could have said "MUT." The point is to do have paper wherever you want to count frames.

I guess, though, I'm not sure what you mean by "leader tape." If you mean the 1/4" audio tape reels with markings at 7.5" and 15", I'm not sure how those would help you out. Each perf is .187" inches from the next (we say 35mm print film has a perforation pitch of .187"), and that does not divide evenly into 7.5" or 15".

I suppose you could write on the leader tape, but I suspect you would find it harder to use, versus a piece of paper taped to the desk in front of you. But feel free to experiment [thumbsup]

.

--jhawk

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 03-23-2005, 08:59 AM:

Things would be a lot easier in general if they would just print the frame lines.

Posted by Jeremy Fuentes (Member # 2135) on 03-23-2005, 09:07 AM:

Jhawk, I think he means just plain blue leader.