Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Best Price on 35-SS Splicer

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Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 04-10-2005, 05:24 PM:

Hi
Just wandered if you guys can help.
I want to buy a Neumade 35-SS splicer and would like to know who does the best deals on them in the U.S.
We don't have a dealer for them down here!

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 04-10-2005, 07:38 PM:

Once, in a great while, one of these 35SS splicers will show up on eBone for pennies compared to a new one.

Disadvantage is that it would be a used one that has the probable chance of needing adjusting/fixing/cleaning/new parts needed.

-good luck, Ian - Monte

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 04-11-2005, 10:30 AM:

While we are talking about the 35SS (standard sprockets, right?) What do I do for Scope sprockets? Is there a Neumade 35CS (CinemaScope sprockets) model? Or does Neumade make replacement parts that can convert standard to scope using the same base?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-11-2005, 11:42 AM:

Frank,

Yes, the 35CS does exist...I sold one in 2003...it is a special order item.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 04-13-2005, 01:19 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Frank,

Yes, the 35CS does exist...I sold one in 2003...it is a special order item.

Hmmm, bet we'd have to morgage the theatre to buy that baby. But given the fact that at one time almost all the theatres in the country needed splicers with fox sprockets, and now no one needs them (plenty of supply, no demand), I would imagine they can be found aplenty in the used equipment dealers' warehouses.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 04-13-2005, 01:36 AM:

quote: Frank Angel
I would imagine they can be found aplenty in the used equipment dealers' warehouses.

..would you settle for a good ol' Griswald "wet splice" fox-sprocket splicer? I might be able to round up one.

-Monte

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-13-2005, 08:12 AM:

I have an almost-new "Neuscope" cement splicer (with pins set up for CS perfs) that I'm using as a paperweight. I'd happily loan it to anyone who needs to deal with CS perfs or trade it for a regular Griswold cement splicer in good cosmetic condition.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-13-2005, 09:07 AM:

By the time the tape splicer came out and was in wide use...CS perfs were on their way out. I have personally come across very few 35CS splicers (Neumade).

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 04-13-2005, 10:54 AM:

Can you modify an SS into a CS by purchasing the teeth and plates?

Posted by Patrick Matthews (Member # 2705) on 04-13-2005, 11:49 AM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
Once, in a great while, one of these 35SS splicers will show up on eBone for pennies compared to a new one.

I got one for $250 [Wink]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-13-2005, 05:18 PM:

Mark,

You should be able to. However, the punch and die assemblies are the most expensive thing on the splicer.

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 10-27-2007, 11:33 AM:

It has been 926 days since the last post.

Posted by Amanda Mundin (Member # 3386) on 10-27-2007, 11:33 AM:

Does Neumade still manufacture the 35SS in both the USA and Japan, and if so is there any difference in quality?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-27-2007, 11:42 AM:

The 35SS is only produced in Japan and is imported and distributed by two different U.S. companies. According to the Florida importer they are actually made in a garage type machine shop.... it doesn't come out of some huge Japaneese factory. For new I would reccomend you contact Cinema Equipment & Supplies in Miami, the Florida importer... since they tend to be a bit more reasonable on pricing. 305-232-8182 For used 35SS keep an eye on E-Bay but be weary of abused splicers!!

Mark

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 10-27-2007, 03:25 PM:

Many U.S. dealers stock these. Our source is the same as listed above. Hadden keeps more than 30 in stock. Louis

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 10-27-2007, 06:06 PM:

I'm told there are small differences in screws, etc. between the Splycemar and the Neumade version.

Both are made by the same company in Japan and as Louis says, are stocked widely.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 10-27-2007, 06:12 PM:

Sam; they must be very slight. We also stock the parts and also repair these for customers. We don't see any difference. (Not all factory replacement parts have a perfect fit.) Louis

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-27-2007, 06:49 PM:

Ditto here... no differences noted yet and we stock all the parts for them.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-27-2007, 08:15 PM:

Really? You guys have not noticed a difference between the two? Check the handle...one is a domestic manufacture that doesn't really fit right...it rolls right over the blade holder screws. One does also tend to use domestic screws...particularly for accessories or as replacement parts.

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 10-27-2007, 09:14 PM:

Just how great will it need to be? You'll only be using it regularly for a few more years, the for occasional special shows, etc.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 10-27-2007, 10:28 PM:

You're not concerned about the quality of the tools you intend to use for a few years? [Confused]

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 10-28-2007, 09:43 AM:

The handles that roll over the screws, we returned for credit. The rest of the Japan-made parts are the same as made for 25 years. Steve: there was a "period of confusion" with mixed Neumade parts, some original; some Jpan. Louis

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-28-2007, 09:50 AM:

I don't know if "confusion" is the word I would use here.

And Bill, anything worth doing is worth doing right. I well made splice and a poorly made one are quite noticable in the presentation...or less noticable as the case may be. Then again, there are those that make up with opaque tape because they don't care about the splice to the patron...so long as Hellen Keller can see it for breakdown.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 10-28-2007, 10:07 AM:

I don't know if you can blame it on just someone who doesn't know how to make a splice or that they are using a splicer that is "not quite" on the money, but EVERY splice caused a jump on the screen (Regal Movies at Sheapshead Bay, Brooklyn NY - 30 [ghastly] DAYS OF NIGHT). I am thinking it was the splicer, given that each jump was identical. That's what even just a slight misalignment can do. If nothing, you have to at least give them a few points for consistency.

Then again, the black line running for at least two reels in the middle of the image on a print that can't have played more than a week bespeaks of a zombie in the booth.

Do the Splyce people make a CinemaScope version of their Neumade knockoff? I am really in need of a good splicer to repair Fox sprocket/mag film.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-28-2007, 03:31 PM:

Frank. The Splycemar is not a Neumade knock off....it is the same item made by the same company. Neumade always imported it. The 35SS from either importer is the same thing in identical packaging...only the name is different.

The 35CS is still available as a special order from Neumade but with a long lead time.

Steve

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 10-29-2007, 12:10 PM:

I've got a Neumade, what I'm saying is that long before the differences in the small parts become apparent in use it will have long been relegated to the back of a shelf somewhere. It will get regular use for maybe the next 3 or 4 years, then like it or not you will be finding yourself increasingly film free. The digital juggernaut is coming. Spending extra money on film equipment today is like the man with 6 months to live buying the 5 year extended warranty on an analog T.V.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 10-29-2007, 12:30 PM:

Well, I'm running retrospective art film. When the studios go back and convert all the classics to 2K or 4K video prints, then I guess I can throw away my splicers, but hey, I am still running 4 track mag, and I suppose some time in the late 70s you could have said the same thing -- might as well get rid of that fox sprocket splicer because, like it or not, 4 track is gone.

Well, yah, gone for furture releases but not for houses which run classic film. But so far there is no move by the studios to pay for the very expensive conversion to make every one of their classic titles available for DCinema presentation. So for us, the idea that in 3 to 4 years we will be able to pick our titles from a list of thousands of DCinema video prints like you can pick titles on Netflix, is preposterous. If it wasn't release in DCinema in the last few years, then like it or not, titles are only available from the studios on film, until, I suppose the studios just junk all existing 35mm release prints and tell us to run Home Video DVDs if we want to show LAWRENCE OF ARABIA. If the digivangelists think THAT's a good thing, then screw them all.

Anyone know of any studios that are converting their classic film libraries to DCinema video prints?

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 10-29-2007, 03:24 PM:

There will most likely be BOTH for a goodly long time to come, unless FORCE is used. I envision 2 parallel universes for quite awhile....20 years? I am 59 years old. I will be here to support film.

This is not to say pro-video is bad; it is just fine for those who have the bucks to pay for it. When it becomes a good thing for my customers, I will help them with it. Louis

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-29-2007, 07:59 PM:

quote: Frank Angel
So for us, the idea that in 3 to 4 years we will be able to pick our titles from a list of thousands

Actually don't be too shocked if that happens. A branch of DTS does just that... and restoration of classics digitally. There have already been showings of Dr. Strangelove in 4K, and an entire "digital circuit" in England and Ireland has been installed for showing these classics on.

BTW: The Fox Hole perf should have been kept and the KS perf discontinued. Fox Hole is about 70% stronger. Had they done that we'd have seen less film damage back during the acetate days.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 10-30-2007, 02:08 AM:

You know, I had heard about that, Mark -- that the smaller holes were stronger, which I thought was counter-intuitive, but John P. told me they had done tests and it was the case. On the other hand, that may have been using fox perf film on projectors equipped with fox sprockets as opposed to standard KS perf film used with fox sprocket drives.

You have to remember at that time, it was almost universal to have all projectors retrofitted with fox sprocket drives, even if they weren't equipped with mag systems, just so that they could run mag/optical prints without ruining them. So that experiment might have been testing both perf configurations but on the one type of sprocket drive -- fox sprockets.

I am still not sure that using KS perfs with KS sprocket drives would fair any better than fox perfs being used on fox sprocket drives, but I admit, it's just a guess.

Of course with poly, you don't have to worry about that stuff any more....just worry about ripping the sprocket teeth off the wheel and pulling over your platter....heh heh.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-30-2007, 06:59 AM:

I don't know Bill...I think your time frame is way off and precision is precision...if a splicer isn't precise, it makes bad splices.

As to DCinema...you guy really should look at what is driving the technology....both SXRD and DLP are funded and driven by the consumer market place...in particular, Rear Screen Projection TVs that is the ONLY market that has the numbers to support these technologies....that market is about as dead as CRTs...with flat panel displays winning out. If in the next year or two at the most, these technologies die...where does that leave DCinema? Not TI or any other semi. manufacturer can produce these products in the low volume that cinema will need...not just for the conversion but as a sustaining product where if even all cinemas were converted in the US (37,000) that the annual product sold after that (to the USA) would be on the order of 3500 chips...maybe...to deal with new builds and replacements. So now add in the rest of the world...you still don't get into the millions of chips that TI or anyone would need to manufacture the parts. Don't expect DLP prices to continue to fall...expect them to rise.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-30-2007, 03:03 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Not TI or any other semi. manufacturer can produce these products in the low volume that cinema will need...not just for the conversion but as a sustaining product where if even all cinemas were converted in the US (37,000) that the annual product sold after that (to the USA) would be on the order of 3500 chips...maybe...to deal with new builds and replacements.

Thats a pretty ludicrous assumption. Indeed producing this equipment and parts won't be any different than when Dolby, DTS, or Panastereo designs and markets a new cinema processor or server or when Analog Devices designs and marlets a new I.C... there will be customers for all these things... there always has been and always will be, ultimately thats why these companies survive. There will also ultimately be upgrades that can be done to what will be by then the existing 37,000 light engines with higher quality chips as technology permits and thats 37,000 just in the U.S. but in the millions world wide eventually. Indeed D-Cinema projectors will find their way into many other venues as well. Assuming that the Cinema end of things is consumer driven is also just another assumption although no doubt some of the cinema technology rubs off on the consumer end of things... the DMD chip was originally a Cinema Development not a consumer development!. You'll more likely find the Cinema end driven by the R&D end of these companies. All of these companies have R&D going on that none of us here are capable of even imagining and these companies have the $$ to sink into it. If they didn't do big time R&D they'd all vaporize and disappear in a very short time. I will also add that the consumer market isn't what makes these huge companies go round. Its the government/industrial end which vastly dwarfs the consumer end of things.

quote: Steve Guttag
Don't expect DLP prices to continue to fall...expect them to rise.

Well then perhaps you can explain the whole new generation of less expensive D-Cinema projectors??? It doesn't take an 80 grand projector to light up a 40 foot screen any longer. I could list many reasons such as more simplified manufacturing processes, higher efficiency reflectors, prisms, and consolidated electronics but one of the main reasons is the development of the .98" DMD chip. One can buy a very high quality 2k projector today for about 30 grand less than a year ago! The actual DMD chips are but a tiny cost of an entire projector, in fact the lamp reflectors or light integrator costs more to buy than a DMD chip does! The real expensive part is the prism block that the light engine is based on and the cost of the software to make it all operate, the rest of the hardware is a small portion of the total cost.

Mark

[ 10-30-2007, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Mark Gulbrandsen ]

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 10-30-2007, 04:08 PM:

The digiprojector in our booth is by far the most expensive and the LEAST reliable thing in the room. The damned thing didn't work out of the box---several connectors were mis-wired, the factory tech couldn't figure it out. The on site installation tech and our electronics wiz sorted out the factory screw ups. Pretty obvious that it was never tested in any way before it was boxed and shipped. Cooling issues, flaky switches, processors that get confused, lamps that time out mid show, douser that fell apart, more. When we need it, we have to turn it on in the morning in order to coax it thru all the problems to have it ready by evening. Calls to the factory and its reps bring nothing substantive in the way of fixes, mostly long pauses and
uh huhs on the other end. This technology is a looooooooooooooooooooog way from being ready for prime time. No, I'll not name it, in hopes the mfgr. will eventually do some good.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-30-2007, 05:00 PM:

Bill,

If you don't name the manufacturer here I would say your complaints are unfoundedand without proof and most will think you're just barking up a tree. One of the best things about F-T is needling the manufacturers into giving you the service you expect and deserve. I've done that many times here and its worked well many times.

In SLC with well over 60 DC screens and every piece of gear under the sun running I just don't hear any stories like yours, in fact one local chain has gone thousands of shows without a hitch. Another good example is the Carmike in Billings that has gone over 1 year without any lost screen time at all. There is no doubt in my mind that it is extremely reliable from my experiences.

Mark

Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 10-30-2007, 06:05 PM:

I can say that our solution from AccessIT has proven very reliable in the past 2 years (well almost 2 years).

There were many initial issues that once worked through everything was fine (i.e. various out of the box or first few hours of operation failures).

There are still a few recurring issues that my staff has learned to catch early and get the techs in to replace the parts, but other than that everything else has been running perfectly fine.

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 10-30-2007, 06:33 PM:

Mark, you're absolutely right.

The machine is a
BARCO DP100

A local company that is a Barco dealer is presently attempting to
get results from Barco. I believe the local company is quite competent, Dumbco is another matter.

I must admit that when it is finally coaxed to life, we have found it to do a pretty good job.

IMO the engineers on this thing deemed it finished and went home at noon when they should have stayed till five and completed the project.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-30-2007, 06:56 PM:

Bill,

I think posting that on here is a good thing. Lets expose the fly by nights if they indeed are... Either they will fix it or they won't. There are quite a few DP-100's here in SLC and they all function extremely well. In fact the local chain that has the majority of DC installations says they actually prefer Barco to NEC as far as dealing with the company, reliability, and image quality. Their last shipment of 8 NEC's had three that were DOA. There are DP-100's in Dolby's and other important screening rooms as well. CLACO recently purchased a used DP-100 for installation at an independents location for Thanksgiving and it performed well where it was removed from... a plex that went all Christie/AIX.

I find DC gear to be somewhat like Broadcast Equipment... a 50/50 chance that it will work out of the box. Its not that its all that complex really... I just think that the assembly folks are not versed well enough in the products they assemble.

Personally I'd get BARCO in to work on the problem rather than a local company. Factory people have a huge advantage over independent service people.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-30-2007, 11:50 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Thats a pretty ludicrous assumption.

Sorry Mark...not an assumption...I talk to people in TI...not the press releases designed to build up the product.

quote:
the DMD chip was originally a Cinema Development not a consumer development!.

Also not true...the big pot of gold for the DMD was always the consumer. A/V and Cinema are considered additional revenue streams for these sort of imagers. They are not large enough markets to support DMD manufacture, but do provide additional revenue from the DMD technology.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
All of these companies have R&D going on that none of us here are capable of even imagining and these companies have the $$ to sink into it.

Perhaps YOU have not looked into why and how these companies have put in R&D into these technologies....I have...at least on the DMD end of things.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
I will also add that the consumer market isn't what makes these huge companies go round. Its the government/industrial end which vastly dwarfs the consumer end of things.

Bzzzt wrong again. Depending on the technology, yes the government can "create a whole division" if some technology is needed. It isn't necessarily the cheapest way to get something. Industrial almost never has the numbers that the retail/consumer end has to get things in a "economy of scale" status. Again, it depends on the program...in the case of DMD...it was the consumer market that was the drive and the potential payoff.

But what the heck...don't believe me...thats fine...we'll see in a couple of years where the technology goes.

The 35SS splicer will still be making good splices if taken care of!

Posted by Max Biela (Member # 1919) on 10-31-2007, 08:25 AM:

Does anybody know where to get the 2 frames version of the Splycemar? I contacted the manufacturer directly but had no luck.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-01-2007, 08:28 AM:

Steve,
I love it the way my posts bring out the best side of you [Big Grin]

.

In fact you are dead wrong though... The industrial side of the semiconductor biz does easily 10 times the volume of the consumer end of things yearly. Avionics alone is as large as consumer, then you have government consumption where just the military end alone is larger, there is the auto industry electronics, all the transpport industry related electronics and so on . So yes, its the industrial folks that actually make it all happen with the buck!!

As for the Splycemar... I've compared two side by side with a Neumade and I couldn't see any difference at all except in the label. All three had the samne metal handle, none rolled over the screws. I think the composite handle someone was talking about was the one produced by chubby Chuck Shoemaker some years ago.

Mark

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 11-01-2007, 09:46 AM:

They did ship an incorrect handle for awhile that rolled over the screws. Lucky Chuckie's handle broke before it could roll over the screws. I sent all thee wrong ones back. Newer handles are OK enough, unless thrown.

As regards Cinema Video, I agree with Steve; that is what I was told. Display technologies are driven by consumer demand. You may well be right on other electronic/computer technologies, but not on video. The "pot o'gold" may well be Billions.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-01-2007, 05:51 PM:

Louis,

That is what I meant... the semiconductor biz as a whole. Its too hard to single out just a certain part of the biz and talking to any one person of any goup is really meaningless since a given group within a large company is going to be very self biased. The One major thing that Steve failed to think about is the flight simulator end of the biz which has consumed more 2-K DMD chips than the entire D-Cinema field has so far. Some sims take as many as a dozen 2K projectors running simultainously. The consumer chips are also entirely different than what is used in D-C although the same chips are used in Flight Sims as in D-C. There is a huge company here in SLC that builds the display part for most the large flight simulators.

Mark

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 11-01-2007, 06:41 PM:

You would think the simulators could use any old cheap chip since about the only thing they ever show is the white inside of a cloud until you get within 200 ft of land. [Big Grin]

Louis

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 11-02-2007, 10:16 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Steve failed to think about is the flight simulator end of the biz which has consumed more 2-K DMD chips than the entire D-Cinema field has so far.

Aren't the flight sims the ones who brought us Cinerama? Which I guess is why we all have three projectors in our booths [Wink]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-02-2007, 10:34 AM:

However, Mark, unlike you, I HAVE talked with people within TI and have specific knowledge on the DMD division...you, on the other hand, clearly don't know what you are talking about on this issue. I was never referring to the semiconductor industry as a whole...which is a tangent you brought up to divert the discussion into something meaningless. The facts remain, the DMD division on TI was banking on rear-screen projection TVs...and that is turning out to be a failed attemept as this year looks to be the last for any significant RSPTV sales. TI is said to be looking to spend upwards of $100M in advertising to extend its life as long as possible.

I'm not wishing gloom and doom on DLP or SXRD, for that matter. I much prefer the look of DLP to LCD, for sure...especially for front projection. My sources, just don't paint a rosy picture for the whole DMD division. It is definately not something one should bank their livelihood on.

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-02-2007, 11:41 AM:

Steve,

How do you know that I don't talk to the folks in the DMD Division at T.I.? Again you're making an assumption...as usual. In fact I was refering to the Semi Industry as a whole back in the first post about this. How do you think the DMD Division came to be....? It didn't just happen... it took lots of bucks to jump start it. Those bucks didn't come from sales of rear screen consumer TV's that didn't exist back when the original R&D took place... it came from mainly the profits of sales of industrial semis which was funneled in a new department to build the DMD. Even if the DMD does die out there is still another and better pixel-less alternative available thats in fact has already been made to an even higher resolution than the SXRD 4K chips.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-02-2007, 11:53 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
How do you know that I don't talk to the folks in the DMD Division at T.I.?

Because if you did, you wouldn't make the statements you have made.

I have no doubt that technology will continue and that high resolution displays will evolve...but at the moment, the DCinema industry is hanging onto what is starting to look like a dying technology with no immediate suitable alternatives in place.

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-02-2007, 02:33 PM:

Actually there is a better technology... with no visible pixels too. Its called the "Grating Light Valve" and its been around at least as long as the DMD. It would have to evolve a bit for use in D-Cinema bt that wouldn't be too hard. Its just laser driven right now.

So I don't talk to the Semi Manufacturers ha??? Next time you're in SLC I'll take you to lunch and you can meet the guys.

Mark